PPR and Landing Fee Nonsense Again in Vegas for Superbowl

ateamer said:
How high can their labor costs be? They’ll have some extra marshallers and line guys in on overtime, but how high is their pay?
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For F1, CCDoA contracted with an outside source to provide "ramp control" at HND and VGT. That was their "excuse" for the high charge, plus they needed to make their profit above the contract cost. I can see the same thing happening again.
 
FPK1 said:
Ya how's that "battle" going...?
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My understanding is that it’s going OK. They have meeting set up with Clark County and are expecting the usage, expense and revenue reports soon. You should check out Flying Monkeys site for updates.
 
That’s the FBO fees vs the airport right?

I’ve been to a few airports that have free ramp parking and a gate with code, but not sure why more airports don’t offer this. You could completely bypass the FBO, given how busy they usually are, I think it’s a win win for everyone. Given it’s a public airport there should be some “public” parking, not forcing you into a FBO with a discretionary fee structure.
 
mandm said:
That’s the FBO fees vs the airport right?

I’ve been to a few airports that have free ramp parking and a gate with code, but not sure why more airports don’t offer this. You could completely bypass the FBO, given how busy they usually are, I think it’s a win win for everyone. Given it’s a public airport there should be some “public” parking, not forcing you into a FBO with a discretionary fee structure.
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The issue in Las Vegas (both KVGT and KHND) is the FBO is actually the county, not a private entity which could be 'bypassed' in normal airports.
 
Alien Mind said:
The issue in Las Vegas (both KVGT and KHND) is the FBO is actually the county, not a private entity which could be 'bypassed' in normal airports.
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They should offer some public parking option that is non FBO in order to receive funding. What are the channels to raise a complaint about these practices. The county wants its cake and to eat it too, aka forcing their FBO and collecting federal funding.
 
If it's on the ground overnight in Las Vegas, CCDoA, Clark County Dept of Aviation, is going to reap some benefit from it.
During special events they will collect fees, even if it is gas and go or drop-off and go.
 
mandm said:
That’s the FBO fees vs the airport right?

I’ve been to a few airports that have free ramp parking and a gate with code, but not sure why more airports don’t offer this. You could completely bypass the FBO, given how busy they usually are, I think it’s a win win for everyone. Given it’s a public airport there should be some “public” parking, not forcing you into a FBO with a discretionary fee structure.
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a gate code with just a security code to get access on to a Class Bravo airport. . . . yeah - that sounds like a brilliant idea for security. . . The airport /should/ provide it - but they dont want to man the security for free GA people coming and going. And the FBO's dont want to do it for people who arent customers that arent paying.
 
Clip4 said:
Oh yea. I am buying $1000 a seat Super Bowl tickets and flying the 150 to the game.
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Yeah, people fly in to Las Vegas daily who aren’t going to the Super Bowl, F1 or other event. They get soaked by the fees.
 
Anthem said:
a gate code with just a security code to get access on to a Class Bravo airport. . . . yeah - that sounds like a brilliant idea for security. . . The airport /should/ provide it - but they dont want to man the security for free GA people coming and going. And the FBO's dont want to do it for people who arent customers that arent paying.
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I'd be happy if they only did that for the non-bravo airports.
 
Clip4 said:
Oh yea. I am buying $1000 a seat Super Bowl tickets and flying the 150 to the game.
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Where are you getting a ticket for $1000????

Right now, the cheapest are over $6000 per seat.
 
Nick Geber said:
Yeah, people fly in to Las Vegas daily who aren’t going to the Super Bowl, F1 or other event. They get soaked by the fees.
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And the hotel prices are through the roof also. Probably restaraunt prices are up also.

So don't go that weekend.
 
ateamer said:
How high can their labor costs be? They’ll have some extra marshallers and line guys in on overtime, but how high is their pay?
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Hang 4 said:
When the Super Bowl was in Atlanta, multiple airports had PPR's and high fees. RYY, where I was based at the time, hired about 100 part time workers to help with everything from security to escorting passengers etc. My wife worked the weekend and got paid a few hundred dollars and free meals while she was working. All the tie-down aircraft were moved and the place was wall to wall jets. No idea what the fees were, but the costs were MUCH higher for those two days.
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Bingo, plus bringing in extra fuel trucks and tugs from other facilities (in this case probably being trucked several hundred miles each way). Hotels for the extra employees coming from other locations, transportation and food for them (ya know just like any other work trip) the list goes on. There is no doubt it is a tremendous money maker for them but it comes at costs and unfortunately we are the ones left to bear those costs.
 
SCCutler said:
"Supply and Demand" is not a valid method for a publicly-owned asset. It is (by law) supposed to serve all on a non-discriminatory manner.
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SCCutler said:
Fees charged must bear a reasonable relationship to the cost of providing the services.
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The purpose of money is to allocate scarce resources. For that weekend, demand far outstrips the capability of the infrastructure to supply.

The only way that the cost of providing a services factors into price is that it affects the businesses' willingness to increase supply. Higher operating costs lead to reduced supply which leads to higher prices.
 
The local government owned FBO monopoly that’s involved didn’t generate and maintain the supply of Las Vegas airports, the Federal Government (i.e. the national citizenry) did, with their tax-based funding. Therefore if you wanted to encourage increased supply with demand-sourced economic incentives, which BTW is not the way the law operates for use of an airport itself versus specific FBO services, the added revenue should be returned to the Federal Government. What is happening here is that local government is collecting a windfall that is not theirs to keep, despite those who might justifiably collect it having decided by Federal policy it should not be collected in the first place.
 
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I mentioned returning a windfall to the Federal Government only to make the point that the windfall collected doesn’t even belong to the FBO or airport management unless they did something extra to earn it. Beyond that, FAA policy is that extortionate landing fees and the resulting windfall are not appropriate, nobody can collect a return on the taxpayer investment in airports and opportunistic landing fees shouldn’t be collected in the first place.

FAA funded airports must by FAA policy provide runway access to the public, using public funds provided to the airport by the Federal taxpayer for that purpose, without prejudice or undue fees. The appropriate way to control the volume of arrivals under that constraint is first-come first-served PPR arrivals up to a capacity limit, not opportunistic landing fees to limit demand. If an FBO on the field then provides extra FBO services to whatever volume of traffic can be accommodated they can collect fair payment from each customer to compensate them for the extra services that they actually provide to each customer at their own expense, but providing an FAA funded and maintained runway and FAA ATC to transient aircraft are not FBO services.
 
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I wonder what Louisville's charges are for the KY Derby each year. They have a ridiculous amount of GA aircraft flying in, so much so they turn taxiways into aprons at SDF, completely fill up LOU, and across the river Clark County completely fills, too. I've never heard of complaints there for charges; makes me wonder.
 
Also Austion and MIA area for the F1 races. The Final Four weekend. World Series games, etc, etc. How about Agusta for the Masters.

I know that the hotels seriously jack up rates for Final Four. I was on an extended stay over the FF weekend and was tossed out of my room for the weekend. I asked about room rates, and they were over $1000 a night.

Looked up the Master's. Not to bad for small piston, if you can get a slot. Over 12,500 is $4.01 per 1000 pounds landing fee, plus $2000 - $3000 ramp fee. PER DAY. The Master's is a week. Even a small piston is $125 per day.
 
Pinecone said:
Looked up the Master's. Not to bad for small piston, if you can get a slot. Over 12,500 is $4.01 per 1000 pounds landing fee, plus $2000 - $3000 ramp fee. PER DAY. The Master's is a week. Even a small piston is $125 per day.
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And that’s fine assuming the ramp with that pricing is on an FBO leasehold and the space being sold commercially and competitively. Ideally there is an airport controlled ramp as well, built and operated with taxpayer money, for those who don’t need or want to pay for extra FBO services and who realize it will fill up fast.

The modest landing fee may reflect the actual increase in airport operating costs to manage a temporary high volume of operations. If so it is legitimate.
 
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Look at the ramp fees in Tuscaloosa on an Alabama game day. Or pick any other airport adjacent to a major college football stadium. I know Tuscaloosa shuts down one of their runways to provide parking for all the jets that come in bearing the serious boosters.
 
Palmpilot said:
I'd be happy if they only did that for the non-bravo airports.
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i think the only workable option in situations like that is an option at airports without passenger traffic (no TSA). If any TSA is involved, then there are fence and access requirements (so essentially it would be Class B, C and almost all D's) - and potentially some other airports as well. But even then - I may take that. . . lol
 
JVerb said:
I wonder what Louisville's charges are for the KY Derby each year. They have a ridiculous amount of GA aircraft flying in, so much so they turn taxiways into aprons at SDF, completely fill up LOU, and across the river Clark County completely fills, too. I've never heard of complaints there for charges; makes me wonder.
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It was $3k last year for a mid size jet.
 
The Masters, Daniel Field, a few years ago.

I coincidentally made a refuel and nostalgia stop there during the Masters. The first inkling that all was not normal was Arnold Palmer's jet just ahead of me, parked. The ramp guy came out and asked if I intended to stay overnight, as all spaces were full. No, just here to get some food, and fill the tank with gas.

He instructed me to get out, and we turned the Cessna 172 SKYHAWK (Gotta take some pride in having the upscale version of a plain Cessna). We pushed it in between Palmers and Jack Nicklaus's jets, chocked all 3 wheels with BIG chocks, and headed in to the office. I left instructions to fill the tanks, and my wife and I walked to a nearby restaurant for lunch. On return, I asked if any of the 4 N numbers in my log book were still there, one was, and we went out into the hanger to see the freshly restored Piper J 3 Cub, and climbed in for the nostalgia part of the stop. This is where, in 1957, I took my first flying lessons.

Back at the desk, had a chat with the gal who had been behind the desk when I took the lessons (Now very much retired).

The cost of that stop? The regular cost of the gallons pumped, no other fees. If I wanted to stay overnight, and tour Fort Gordon? Find a different airport, big money has all the spaces filled.

True transients are accommodated, but the people who reserve way ahead effectively own Daniel Field for the Masters.
 
schmookeeg said:
Wait, is that your argument against paid street parking as well? Scarcity of a common good seems perfect for metering via price.

Doesn't mean I like it. Doesn't make these prices sane -- but it appears rubes are paying them, or they'd stop? So fill the city coffers.
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Oh, now, you're smarter than that. I know of nowhere that paid street parking on public streest increases in cost when there's a big event on. It fills, then that's that.

Are they going to charge a special toll for the use of the Interstate highways? Local roads?
 
Variable rate electronic parking meters are growing in popularity with governments in the Washington DC area.

Parking is cheap when the stores and restaurants are closed, and moderately expensive at lunch time. Dinner and evening time, way higher. This is on the public streets.
 
Has the Federal Government, which funds construction and maintenance of the movement areas at Las Vegas airports and which provides airport ATC, decided that they want ANY fees, paid on any basis, to repay their costs? No they have not, so regardless of how other governments may structure fees to provide a return on their road and parking infrastructure investments, in relation to landing fees in Las Vegas this is just a discussion of how Clark County is collecting a return on an investment they didn’t make, contrary to the direction of those who made it.

Clark County can justifiably charge for FBO services outside of the movement area, provided by FBOs that they have built and run with local investment, but they cannot justify opportunistic charges for using airports funded by Federal taxpayers.
 
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Tusayan said:
Has the Federal Government, which funds construction and maintenance of the movement areas at Las Vegas airports and which provides airport ATC, decided that they want ANY fees, paid on any basis, to repay their costs? No they have not, so regardless of how other governments may structure fees to provide a return on their road and parking infrastructure investments, in relation to landing fees in Las Vegas this is just a discussion of how Clark County is collecting a return on an investment they didn’t make, contrary to the direction of those who made it.

Clark County can justifiably charge for FBO services outside of the movement area, provided by FBOs that they have built and run with local investment, but they cannot justify opportunistic charges for using airports funded by Federal taxpayers.
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Absolutely. Lets make all parking at airports free!!!! Car parking especially, right ? Its a free for all for all federally funded project of any kind. Hey - the whitehouse and pentagon were also funded by the taxpayers - lets go set up shop there as well.
 
Again, this is a discussion about landing fees at Clark County airports, and how they run counter to FAA policy that applies because Clark County takes money from the FAA to cover airport costs, as well as taking these opportunistic, redundant landing fees from transient traffic. And we are not voting on this issue, it’s preexisting long term FAA policy on what FAA money buys.
 
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Tusayan said:
Again, this is a discussion about opportunistic landing fees at Clark County airports, and the relevant FAA policy that applies because Clark takes money from the FAA. We are not voting on this issue.
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Then say FAA and not federal government. But even if the FAA - the FAA specifically notates that airports need to be self funding and that they can charge reasonable fees. The discussion may be on what "reasonable" is - but many people (including those in this forum/thread) believe those travelling to Las Vegas during Super Bowl charging $1000 or whatever that number happens to be is perfectly reasonable. And dont think for a minute that Clark county hasnt "invested" /some/ of their own money in the KLAS project. And what you think they want in return for that is not pertinent either.
 
Tusayan said:
Again, this is a discussion about landing fees at Clark County airports, and how they run counter to FAA policy that applies because Clark County takes money from the FAA, as well as taking opportunistic, redundant landing fees from transient traffic. And we are not voting on this issue, it’s preexisting long term FAA policy on what FAA money buys.
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I get it, there is a hate on the Clark County airports ever since the F1 debacle. But again, have you tried to fly into any metro area that has hosted the Super Bowl? What LAS is doing is not without precedent, it happens every single year in every city that hosts the Super Bowl. Large landing fees specifically designed to drive unnecessary traffic, PPRs, parking slot reservations, etc. My airport was 100 miles from a previous Super Bowl, and we were receiving a fair amount of overflow jet traffic from aircraft that couldn't get a parking reservation for the game so they dropped their passengers and repositioned to our airport.
 
SCCutler said:
Oh, now, you're smarter than that. I know of nowhere that paid street parking on public streest increases in cost when there's a big event on. It fills, then that's that.

Are they going to charge a special toll for the use of the Interstate highways? Local roads?
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an "event parking" sign is usually a clue to me that the public parking that's normally $10/day is now $20/hr. :) If someone figured out how to make meters do this fairly (no sneakiness, very clear rates posted on the thing) I'd be in favor, and think it clever.

I feel like toll roads already represent this concept. If you want to get there badly enough, you pay. If the toll is lower than your concern threshold, you always take the toll road by default and as a matter of course because it's less crowded. I do this anyway.
 
Anthem said:
Then say FAA and not federal government
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One more time, this is a discussion about landing fees at Federally funded airports. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) policy applies when Clark County takes money from the Federal Government. He with the gold makes the rules. Hundreds or thousands of dollars charged by local government to land a C150 on a Federally funded runway, using FAA provided ATC, then depart without using private or local government run FBO services is not reasonably compliant with FAA policy for operation of public airports.

If you want to take the discussion out of its proper context and discuss strings that are similarly attached to Federal highway funding, they also exist. An example is the requirement for Federal safety standards on state roads, e.g. double yellow lines within a certain distance of corners on low volume western US roads with good visibility. That one annoyed Caltrans, but they took the Federal money anyway and applied the rules that came with it. Likewise, the Federally funded interstate highway system cannot be tolled without a Federal exemption and isn’t except where it overlays previously existing state highways in some eastern areas.
 
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Larry in TN said:
Why is it that we like market forces when they lower prices but call their affect "price gouging" when the same market forces push prices higher?
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Because this discussion is about access to publicly funded, federal government-controlled resources. It's disappointing to see so many people on here who don't understand why these types of resources should not be allocated based on pure market-driven, supply and demand pricing.

Maybe when they roll up to Yellowstone with the family in the car and the ranger says, "Sorry, busy weekend, $1,000 admission please!"

C.
 
mandm said:
They should offer some public parking option that is non FBO in order to receive funding. What are the channels to raise a complaint about these practices. The county wants its cake and to eat it too, aka forcing their FBO and collecting federal funding.
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Go down to your local government and tell them you want them to reduce spending on the city parks to fund free parking for the poor airplane owners.
 
camorton said:
Because this discussion is about access to publicly funded, federal government-controlled resources.
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Either market forces are a good way to allocate scarce resources or they aren't. In either case, the funding source of the scarce resource doesn't change the answer.
 
Larry in TN said:
Either market forces are a good way to allocate scarce resources or they aren't. In either case, the funding source of the scarce resource doesn't change the answer.
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In the end, market forces will allocate the scarce resources. It’s not a question of whether they are a good way. It’s a question of who gets the windfall when there is effectively zero elasticity of supply and a short-term higher demand.
 
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