PP-ASEL logging time in a multi engine aircraft?

hish747

hish747

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Hish747
If my friend takes me for a flight in his multiengine aircraft can I, as a PP-ASEL, log that time at the controls of a multi-engine aircraft? I understand that I can't log PIC, but can I log the flight time?
 
Nope you aren't rated in class and it's not instruction.

Someone made a pretty decent flowchart to indicate what you can log at one time but management didn't care to pin it or make it a sticky.
 
Yes you can log it, but it won’t count for anything other than your own record if he isn’t an MEI.
 
If your friend is a MEI and signed your logbook as instruction given, yes. Dual.
 
mscard88 said:
If your friend is a MEI and signed your logbook as instruction given, yes. Dual.
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This one?

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And this one

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Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
 
EdFred said:
Nope you aren't rated in class and it's not instruction.

Someone made a pretty decent flowchart to indicate what you can log at one time but management didn't care to pin it or make it a sticky.
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Hi Ed.

If that someone would start another thread, with a very descriptive title, I will make sure it gets sticky.
 
No, neither of those. I love how he copied my flowchart and then copyrighted it under his name.
 
I've always understood that yes you can log it in total time, but it can't be PIC. I'm likely wrong, but I don't know of any regulations preventing this.

That being said, when I go up with friends I typically put the plane in my logbook (because I like to track that info), but leave it as 0 hours.
 
skier said:
I've always understood that yes you can log it in total time, but it can't be PIC. I'm likely wrong, but I don't know of any regulations preventing this.
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Unfortunately, you gotta read a couple of regs together.
  • FAR 1.1 defines "flight time" as "Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing;"
  • FAR 61.1 defines "pilot time" as time in which a person "serves as a required pilot flight crewmember" or gives or receives training as or from a CFI
  • Those are an umbrella over the Universal Rule of Logging Flight Time, FAR 61.51.
The net result of all three is, there is no such thing as undifferentiated, general "flight time" aside from the 61.51 boxes. Basically, there's no flight time to "total" unless it fits in a 61.51 box.

BTW, there used to be a 61.51 category of "other pilot time," but that went away 20 years ago and was still subject to pilot time definitions.
 
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EdFred said:
Nope you aren't rated in class and it's not instruction.

Someone made a pretty decent flowchart to indicate what you can log at one time but management didn't care to pin it or make it a sticky.
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As @Greg Bockelman said, if you make a new thread with it (tag me when you do) I'll make it a sticky.
 
You could write it IN your log book as something you may want to remember for personal reasons if you don't add it into your other time. You cannot log it as flight time either as PIC or SIC.
 
champ driver said:
You could write it IN your log book as something you may want to remember for personal reasons if you don't add it into your other time. You cannot log it as flight time either as PIC or SIC.
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What he said. Long story, I was able to hand fly a B-757 for about an hour a few years ago. Of course I am not rated and the Captain did not offer dual, but I put it in my logbook with ( ) and did not add it to any of my times.
 
Had a retired United 747 I knew tell me I needed to put some P51 time in my logbook when I was building hours. I said I've never flown a P51. He says, no no, Parker 51, the pen!

I declined. ;)
 
There's a defect in the flowchart. A flight instructor can't be authorized to give instruction if he's not also in possession of a pilot certificate with category and class ratings for the aircraft. There's no way you'd get to that balloon.
 
flyingron said:
There's a defect in the flowchart. A flight instructor can't be authorized to give instruction if he's not also in possession of a pilot certificate with category and class ratings for the aircraft. There's no way you'd get to that balloon.
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It's not a defect. The chart requires the CFI to be "an authorized instructor for the flight." Of course, that requires more knowledge than is depicted on the chart, but if a CFI doesn't know that, too bad, so sad.

The difficulty I have always had with the chart is a little different than what it is missing for a CFI. Although at its best it is a good outline and guide to learning, it's probably used more as a substitute for learning. After all, if you learned and understood 61.51, you wouldn't need the chart.
 
midlifeflyer said:
It's not a defect. The chart requires the CFI to be "an authorized instructor for the flight." Of course, that requires more knowledge than is depicted on the chart, but if a CFI doesn't know that, too bad, so sad.

The difficulty I have always had with the chart is a little different than what it is missing for a CFI. Although at its best it is a good outline and guide to learning, it's probably used more as a substitute for learning. After all, if you learned and understood 61.51, you wouldn't need the chart.
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Why do I need to memorize something I only need once in a blue moon and can look up on a chart? I’m not a safety hazard On my daytime Vfr flight in a sel if I don’t know if I can log when flying a multi engine tail dragger at night with a blind ex-CFI in the back seat, with a certified seeing eye dog.
 
Salty said:
Why do I need to memorize something I only need once in a blue moon and can look up on a chart? I’m not a safety hazard On my daytime Vfr flight in a sel if I don’t know if I can log when flying a multi engine tail dragger at night with a blind ex-CFI in the back seat, with a certified seeing eye dog.
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You don't. But if you don't know that, what other knowledge gaps do you have in 61 and 91 that could be a safety hazard?
 
Salty said:
Why do I need to memorize something I only need once in a blue moon and can look up on a chart? I’m not a safety hazard On my daytime Vfr flight in a sel if I don’t know if I can log when flying a multi engine tail dragger at night with a blind ex-CFI in the back seat, with a certified seeing eye dog.
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Where did I say or suggest "memorize?"
 
midlifeflyer said:
It's not a defect. The chart requires the CFI to be "an authorized instructor for the flight." Of course, that requires more knowledge than is depicted on the chart, but if a CFI doesn't know that, too bad, so sad.
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The problem is that if he is an authorized instructor, then he'll never get to the CFI decision point. He's rated (otherwise he can't be an authorized instructor), so he bypasses that branch and ends up testing for sole manipulator/Safety Pilot/Multipilot operation (presuming he's none of these) and end up in the LOG NOTHING square.
 
Just fly when you get the chance, and don't sweat the adminsitrivia - annotate it if you like, don't include it for dual or currency or an advanced rating, but put it in your log book for the experience/memory of it.
 
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