Pilots who've had an aircraft on leaseback with their flight school

James Darren

Pre-Flight
Joined
Jul 5, 2013
Messages
84
Location
Los Angeles, CA
Display Name

Display name:
James Darren
I've done a lot of research on this, read many of the articles written and have heard both the good & bad stories of aircraft leaseback. It's definitely not for everyone & it takes many factors to work out for you.

In saying that, I'd like to hear of your experiences if you've had an aircraft on leaseback with your flight school whilst you were training. Did it work out for you when you were going through your ratings? What was the good and/or bad?
 
Downsides
1. Your insurance will increase 3-4x
2. You are paying for 100 hr inspections, not an annual
3. You no longer have control of your airplane, you need to schedule it like any renter
4. You don't know who is flying your airplane.
5. You have not control over the wear & tear
6. If leasebacks are fantastic, why doesn't the owner of the flight school own the airplanes and put them on leaseback?

Advantages
1. If you don't care about the condition of the airplane, it *may* be financially advantageous.
2. If it is not used for Primary training, e.g. high performance or a twin, there will be much less wear & tear on the airplane.
3. Can't think of another one.

If the financial burden is a problem, consider a partnership or a small flying club. Less wear & tear, you're not in a commercial situation so you don't have the same insurance/mantenance restrictions.
 
Hi James,

I probably still have our leaseback data from 1998-2008 when we operated a school with several leased aircraft. Los Angeles is fertile for leaseback if you can keep volume high and partner with an honest FBO. Our record hobbs was 173.8 in one month. That is insane utilization for a C172, and requires a well-oiled support machine behind it to achieve. It can be done, though. Even our G1000 averaged 1300 hobbs per year.

Your paths to making money are:

1. Run a high-quality C172 at a reasonable price ("competitor's price, minus ten bucks"), and let it be destroyed/depreciated.

2. Run a 70s-80s vintage C172 at a fair price, and watch the hours pile on.

3. Run a ragged out C172 at a low price, and watch the hours pile on.

4. Bonus: Insure the hull for 20k over your purchase price and wait for some idiot to prang the thing.

...understand that the cash will be whizzing around in very large amounts, and it tends to dazzle pie-eyed investors when they're on the spreadsheets. The problem is, none of that cash is for you. :)

If you care about the plane and want to guard its condition, then you shouldn't be leasing it. Ever. We had a few obsessive owners who would placard operating "suggestions" all over their baby, and offer helpful operating tips to the renters (unasked-for), and the renters basically gave him the finger and the plane languished unprofitably.

If you need hours, you'll definitely be able to pay for your flying. You'll just be sacrificing an airplane to the renter gods to do so.

A good flying club could balance wear with opex, but I don't know who the players are in this space anymore. I hear VNY has an active one.

$0.02

- Mike
 
I've done a lot of research on this, read many of the articles written and have heard both the good & bad stories of aircraft leaseback. It's definitely not for everyone & it takes many factors to work out for you.

In saying that, I'd like to hear of your experiences if you've had an aircraft on leaseback with your flight school whilst you were training. Did it work out for you when you were going through your ratings? What was the good and/or bad?

I haven't done it, was going to with the 310 with a buddy/MEI I trust implicitly, but the insurance costs vs projected usage didn't pan out. I have talked to a lot of people who had leasebacks under different models. The ones that were very happy with it differentiated themselves with those unhappy in a couple of matters.

First is in how the leaseback was set up. Typically the people I know happy with the results receive a minor portion of the proceeds, typically in the 25-33% range, but all expenses were covered by the FBO/Flight School. The risk in this model is how well the FBO cares for your aircraft. The upside to this model is that most of the FBOs that offer it, do so because it's the most fair to the lessor and keeps them in planes to operate.

The other typical model is the plane owner gets most of the hourly money, but is responsible for all the costs. The hazard here is if the FBO is also doing the maintenance, when business is slow, and payroll or rent is due, all of a sudden your plane needs a $5000 repair. These types of leasebacks have the potential to produce a revenue stream without making income. If you are an A&P IA though, this method may be preferable.

The other big issue is why you are putting it on leaseback. The people who choose a leaseback because it is the only way they can afford an airplane and are looking for others to subsidize their cost of operations because they can't afford it on their own, they are invariably unhappy with the deal. If the plane is making enough to pay for itself, it's tough to get on the schedule, and you still pay to rent your own plane (this can have tax benefits in the right situation, as can having an aviation business). Basically all you are doing is getting a discount on your rental by providing the plane, rarely do the numbers work out, in fact, I don't know anyone that was in that situation and happy with it.

The people I see that are happy with their leaseback are ones that are on their second plane, and rather than take a huge hit selling their first one, they turn it into a revenue stream and/or tax deduction and just treat it as a depreciating business asset, they don't even fly it anymore.

It's a very muddled and complex issue with a lot of variables, you have to analyze each situation independently against your needs and goals. It is rare that a leaseback is a good option for most pilots, however it exists. Most pilots are much happier in a defined partnership with a select group of pilots. This to me appears the best way to have the airplane you want access to but can't afford on your own.
 
Downsides
1. Your insurance will increase 3-4x
2. You are paying for 100 hr inspections, not an annual
3. You no longer have control of your airplane, you need to schedule it like any renter
4. You don't know who is flying your airplane.
5. You have not control over the wear & tear
6. If leasebacks are fantastic, why doesn't the owner of the flight school own the airplanes and put them on leaseback?

Advantages
1. If you don't care about the condition of the airplane, it *may* be financially advantageous.
2. If it is not used for Primary training, e.g. high performance or a twin, there will be much less wear & tear on the airplane.
3. Can't think of another one.

If the financial burden is a problem, consider a partnership or a small flying club. Less wear & tear, you're not in a commercial situation so you don't have the same insurance/mantenance restrictions.

My insurance quote was 9x personal use.:yikes:
 
Hi James,

I probably still have our leaseback data from 1998-2008 when we operated a school with several leased aircraft. Los Angeles is fertile for leaseback if you can keep volume high and partner with an honest FBO. Our record hobbs was 173.8 in one month. That is insane utilization for a C172, and requires a well-oiled support machine behind it to achieve. It can be done, though. Even our G1000 averaged 1300 hobbs per year.

Your paths to making money are:

1. Run a high-quality C172 at a reasonable price ("competitor's price, minus ten bucks"), and let it be destroyed/depreciated.

2. Run a 70s-80s vintage C172 at a fair price, and watch the hours pile on.

3. Run a ragged out C172 at a low price, and watch the hours pile on.

4. Bonus: Insure the hull for 20k over your purchase price and wait for some idiot to prang the thing.

...understand that the cash will be whizzing around in very large amounts, and it tends to dazzle pie-eyed investors when they're on the spreadsheets. The problem is, none of that cash is for you. :)

If you care about the plane and want to guard its condition, then you shouldn't be leasing it. Ever. We had a few obsessive owners who would placard operating "suggestions" all over their baby, and offer helpful operating tips to the renters (unasked-for), and the renters basically gave him the finger and the plane languished unprofitably.

If you need hours, you'll definitely be able to pay for your flying. You'll just be sacrificing an airplane to the renter gods to do so.

A good flying club could balance wear with opex, but I don't know who the players are in this space anymore. I hear VNY has an active one.

$0.02

- Mike


Yep, a leaseback plane cannot be considered a prize possession, it has to be considered a depreciating business asset. If it's your 'baby' a lease back deal will give you a stroke.
 
Good info, thanks Mike.

I was looking at a C-172S. I agree it seems LA & SoCal is very busy for training aircraft, especially the C-172S. It also seems that most of the C-172S that I've come across on leaseback have been with the flight schools for a number of years.

I don't expect this to be my prized possession. I've owned rental equipment in a different industry & am familiar the process, at the same time I do understand that aircraft rental is somewhat different. For me it's about doing my ratings & building hours.


Hi James,

I probably still have our leaseback data from 1998-2008 when we operated a school with several leased aircraft. Los Angeles is fertile for leaseback if you can keep volume high and partner with an honest FBO. Our record hobbs was 173.8 in one month. That is insane utilization for a C172, and requires a well-oiled support machine behind it to achieve. It can be done, though. Even our G1000 averaged 1300 hobbs per year.

Your paths to making money are:

1. Run a high-quality C172 at a reasonable price ("competitor's price, minus ten bucks"), and let it be destroyed/depreciated.

2. Run a 70s-80s vintage C172 at a fair price, and watch the hours pile on.

3. Run a ragged out C172 at a low price, and watch the hours pile on.

4. Bonus: Insure the hull for 20k over your purchase price and wait for some idiot to prang the thing.

...understand that the cash will be whizzing around in very large amounts, and it tends to dazzle pie-eyed investors when they're on the spreadsheets. The problem is, none of that cash is for you. :)

If you care about the plane and want to guard its condition, then you shouldn't be leasing it. Ever. We had a few obsessive owners who would placard operating "suggestions" all over their baby, and offer helpful operating tips to the renters (unasked-for), and the renters basically gave him the finger and the plane languished unprofitably.

If you need hours, you'll definitely be able to pay for your flying. You'll just be sacrificing an airplane to the renter gods to do so.

A good flying club could balance wear with opex, but I don't know who the players are in this space anymore. I hear VNY has an active one.

$0.02

- Mike
 
I did my PPL at a flight school that had a few planes on leaseback. Got to know the owner and hit it off chatting business since we were both business owners and I was interested in the aviation business and ownership opportunities. He was very candid and said that leasebacks always worked in favor of the school and rarely the owners. If it was your only way to afford a plane and didn't mind it getting beat to hell, it could be a viable option.

I know what I did to my trainer during my PPL process...multiply that by many other students that were both better and WORSE than me....do I wanna own that plane?...No thanks!

If you are looking purely at a training option and not a long term plane, then it is is just a numbers game to see if it is cheaper for you to rent, buy, lease back, or partner. The lease back for me would have to be a SIGNIFICANT savings to buy the liability and headache of ownership.
 
Last edited:
For those that have done it:

What is the difference between buying an airplane and renting it to a fight school or buying a house and renting it out?
 
For those that have done it:

What is the difference between buying an airplane and renting it to a fight school or buying a house and renting it out?

I haven't done it but houses appreciate (typically)...planes depreciate.
 
I tried with a 182 once I was offered the 80/20 deal. I asked the FBO owner this...."I'm going to ask you a question and I expect an honest answer." He said " I can do that."

My question. "If this presentation is honest and a great deal for you and me I accept but I want the 20% net part you can keep my great 80%." He closed his laptop and said he would get back with me. 7 years later still waiting....
 
I don't think anyone would say that leasebacks are a great deal. And of course it's very different to renting out a house.

But what I'm asking is for people who have actually done a leaseback during their training & time building. Did it somewhat reduce your training costs overall?...
 
Got talked out of it by my insurer. He made a really convincing case, too.
 
For those that have done it:

What is the difference between buying an airplane and renting it to a fight school or buying a house and renting it out?

Not a heck of a lot, most models of house rental have the same issues, except with an airplane on leaseback, you don't have all the same cost saving measures you can apply. You can't be a 'slumlord' with an aircraft, every 100 hours it needs an inspection.
 
I'm currently managing the rental of a C172 and various other airplane sto come over the next year or two. There is certainly money to be made but you need to treat it like a business and pay attention to every penny.

What I know so far:

1.) Don't get emotionally attached to the airplane. It's a business asset.
2.) The airplane needs to be available as much as possible. The costs of the airplane sitting will quickly wipe out any profits.
3.) Plan your MX to reduce downtime as much as possible. Fix things before they break because once again if you go down unexpectedly so will your money.
4.) Insurance isn't nearly as terrifyingly expensive as people make it sound
5.) It needs to be presentable. This means the paint has to look good, the interior has to look good, and you have to keep it clean. This requires work and a commitment to manage it every day.

In another year or two I'll probably have a whole hell of a lot more useful advice to give.

I can't imagine leasing an airplane to someone else to rent. There just isn't enough money to be made to be involving another party. At best you'll break even. Most likely your airplane you're emotionally attached to is going to get worn out, beat up, and you'll lose money on it. You also won't be able to fly it when you want.

If you want to rent airplanes buy an airplane to rent. That's 100% it's purpose. It's the only way you can make the numbers work.

If you want to own an airplane to use it for personal use. Own it. Pay for it. Enjoy it. Maybe let a friend or two fly it if you don't utilize it enough.
 
Last edited:
Downsides
1. Your insurance will increase 3-4x
2. You are paying for 100 hr inspections, not an annual

You're a sucker if you got conned into paying for those items :nono:

1 The school pays the insurance on its fleet

2 The school pays for 100hr and annual inspections

The only thing the owner pays for is overhauls or owner decided upgrades.


I know a few people who make good money leasing jump planes, tow planes, etc.
 
James,

Just sent ya 4 years of our leaseback invoice/spreadsheets for 10 different planes we leased from 2006-2009, as well as our "leaseback shopping list" and a nifty little calculator we used to set the rental rate.

Hope it helps. :)

- Mike
 
Read the sticky at the top of this section. Captain Jason's Leaseback Advice. It dates back a bit, and Jason is long gone from this board, but his advice is still worth reading.
 
Reprinted by permission of the author, Jason "Whirlwind" Hegel:
Captain Jason’s Leaseback Advice:

1. Leasebacks are a business, always treat them like one. Never get emotionally attached to a leaseback airplane, it will get abused just like a rental car does, and you don't go seeking those out when you buy a used car, do you? Put leaseback aircraft in corporations, run their books separately, have a separate tax return for the aircraft each year, etc. Talk to your CPA and lawyer, make sure you understand both the legal and tax issues.

2. You can make a lot of money with a leaseback. You can lose a lot of money with a leaseback. Many of the factors of making/losing money are completely outside of your control. If your goal in a leaseback is to have someone else pay for your personal airplane, you probably are not going to be happy with the result. If your goal is to defer the cost of your own flying, get your ratings, and perhaps make some money on the side, you can do well if you pick the right FBO/flight school to do business with.

3. If you leaseback an aircraft to an honest FBO, you have a chance to do well. If you leaseback an aircraft to a crook, you have no chance at all. Get to know with whom you are doing business. Ask around the airport, talk to the other owners, etc. Be careful of any FBO that pushes you to get into this too quickly. The best will be honest and upfront about the risks and will caution you to avoid it if you have doubts. Talk to other owners at the FBO, find out how they have been treated.

4. You must run the numbers from a realistic viewpoint, remember this is a business. Take what you're paid each hour by the FBO and subtract the per hour costs such as fuel and maintenance reserves (if you don’t, that $15,000 engine is going to surprise you). That figure is your actual hourly income (the rest does not exist for this calculation) Take the monthly fixed costs and divide them by that "true" per hour income. That is the number of hours the aircraft must fly each month to break even. The monthly fixed costs must include insurance, tie-down, and the "payment", even if there is no payment on the aircraft. The cash you might pay for an aircraft has value, if you don't include it in the monthly fixed costs, you're letting the FBO use your money for free. So add in what the payment would be if you had one.

5. You're still a renter, you just rent one specific aircraft for a reduced rate, but you're still a renter and must schedule your flights along with everyone else. Do you have the right to bump paying customers? If so, how much notice must you give? If you are inclined to "bump" paying customers for your own flying very often, you're probably a poor leaseback candidate. You'll upset those customers and you'll be hurting your own income stream. Find out about renting other airplanes at the FBO for a discounted rate if your plane is down, or otherwise busy. Everything in a leaseback is negotiable, so ask!

6. The standard leaseback agreement is the basic 80/20 plan. You get 80% of the per hour rental rate, the FBO gets 20%. Out of your 80% you pay fuel, insurance, tie-down, maintenance, and the "payment" for the aircraft (again, this has nothing to do with actually having a bank loan or not, it is the monthly value of the money invested into the airplane). Some FBOs do leasebacks differently, and if you run across one of them, be really sure of what they are offering before you sign on the dotted line.

7. FBOs like leasebacks because it removes all the risk from them. They get 20% of the rental rate, yet do not have to own or maintain a fleet of airplanes (and sometimes they make money off the maintenance). You absorb all that risk. In exchange for that risk, you have the chance to make some money, and you'll be able to fly for about half the price of renting (or less).

8. The best leaseback deals are on aircraft that fly a lot of hours each month. A Cessna 172 that flies 80 hours a month will almost always make money. A Piper Arrow that flies 20 hours a month will almost always lose money. The breakeven point on most single engine airplanes is around 50 hours and the leaseback becomes really worth doing from a profit perspective at 65 hours. I know of a case where a Piper Arrow was leased to a flight school and it flew 60 hours over 8 months. The owner lost a lot of money in insurance and maintenance. I also know of a case where a Cessna 172 was leased to a flight school and it flew an average of 87.2 hours a month over a 12-month period, the owner made a fair amount of money that year.

9. Don’t put a brand new airplane on leaseback, they lose too much value the first few years and are very quickly not new anymore when on a rental line. An example is the 1999 172SP I bought. I paid $124,000 for it with a fresh engine installed. It would cost about $209,000 to buy that plane new, in its current configuration (in 2004). Since even a new plane looks used very quickly on a rental line, I saved $80,000 (or about 1/3 the price) in exchange for having 2,200 hours already on the airframe. Those hours do not affect the rental rate. There is one exception to this rule however, and that is the new 50% bonus tax deduction signed into law by President Bush. If you have a need for a $150,000 tax deduction this year, buying a brand new 172SP for $209,000 does make sense, because of the unusual tax benefits offered by the new law.

10. Only do a leaseback if you can afford to own the airplane without the leaseback. Used aircraft can be expensive the first few months you own them. Don't expect to take anything home the first six months. People who already have money seem to do well with leasebacks. Those who really cannot afford an airplane in the first place seem to do poorly. These are generalizations of course, but there is an old saw that says it takes money to make money.

11. Buy the right aircraft, the right way. You can do everything else right, but if you buy the wrong aircraft or pay too much, you'll lose every time. This doesn't mean pick a Cessna 172 over a Piper Warrior, this means pick the right Cessna 172 or Piper Warrior. Some airplanes just shouldn't be leased back. A Mooney or Bonanza are good examples. Very old airplanes often make poor leasebacks as well. The only airplane older than about 25 years I'd leaseback would be a Cessna 150. You want something reliable with a known history. Avoid the very high time and very low time airplanes. Avoid an airplane that hasn’t flown much recently. An airplane that has had 500 hours put on it in the past 10 years will have a lot of things break when the flight school puts 500 hours on it in 6 months. I’ve seen this happen to others and it happened to me with my 172N.

12. You must sometimes spend money to make money. People want to rent airplanes with nice interiors and good panels. If the per hour rental rate is equal, would you rather fly in a Cessna 172 with ARC radios and no GPS, or a full Garmin panel? The new panel and a new interior might add 20% to the price of the airplane but double your monthly profit.

13. Look over the past two years records of similar airplanes at the FBO you’re looking at doing business with. Not just the total hours flown, but how much has been spent on maintenance and how much total income there was after all costs. There is no more honest way to see what to expect than to look at the real world figures from existing aircraft on the FBOs rental line. Do not leaseback to anyone who won't show you the records on the existing airplanes and introduce you to the other aircraft owners.

14. Think long and hard about why you're doing this. Many people get into leasebacks for all the wrong reasons, make sure you're doing it for the right reasons. A leaseback can make sense for some people, it can be a disaster for others. It generally isn't a good way to go about having someone else pay for your own personal airplane, since it will wear faster and not be cared for as well as if it were your own. In addition, you're limited in what you can do with it, given that you still have to schedule it and can’t take it very far without it costing you a lot in lost income. It can however provide you with your ratings, some money, and some low cost flying if managed well.

15. To sum it up, a leaseback is often used to reduce the cost of flying, sometimes it is used to make money, sometimes it is used as a tax shelter (consult your tax advisor on this one). The months I did a lot of personal flying, I tended to break even, and have lost money a few months, but then if you consider what my flying would have cost otherwise, I came out way ahead. If you can't afford to own regardless of the leaseback income, consider that you're making a serious commitment and while it is very easy to buy a plane, it can be hard to sell one.

For the record, I had three aircraft on leaseback with two different flight schools at Addison. A 1977 Cessna 172N, a 1999 Cessna 172SP, and a 1997 Schweizer 300CB helicopter. I did well with the older 172 and the helicopter, the 172SP mostly broke even, but I did fly it about 100 hours personally without paying a dime, so it wasn’t too bad. I earned my commercial and CFI license in both airplanes and helicopters, flew almost 500 personal hours between all the aircraft, and came out $36,000 ahead at the end of the day. I sold them once I was done flight instructing, and have since bought a Piper Twin Comanche for my personal use. I considered leasing it back, but choose not to because I want it available to fly whenever I want to go, one thing that isn’t possible with a leaseback.
 
Thanks for posting but am very familiar with Jason's article, have read it many times over.

Too bad Ray closed down Rainbow Air on LGB, he always had a good fleet of mixed owned and lease back planes and was a good fair guy, never heard the owners of the leasebacks complaining. That really is the crux of the issue, who you are dealing with.
 
As someone who has been on both sides of the leaseback equation, it is a bad deal for the leaseback owner. You will simply be subsidizing other peoples flying. For those that want a tax break, I can offer a simpler system that works somewhat like a leaseback. You loan me $10,000. I will agree to repay it, but will never actually do it. You can write my bad loan off your taxes. I will have to declare it as income and pay taxes on my theft.
 
As someone who has been on both sides of the leaseback equation, it is a bad deal for the leaseback owner. You will simply be subsidizing other peoples flying. For those that want a tax break, I can offer a simpler system that works somewhat like a leaseback. You loan me $10,000. I will agree to repay it, but will never actually do it. You can write my bad loan off your taxes. I will have to declare it as income and pay taxes on my theft.
Hi John,
Can you go into details why the leaseback didn't work for you?
Which aircraft did you have & for how long?
What FBO was it at or if you'd rather not say, which airport?
How many hours was it flying per month on average?
At what point did you realize it was losing money?
 
I did twice.

First; 1970 Citabria, used for banner and glider tow. I also trained TW in that plane. It worked out well, I got my training done, and did a fair amount of banner and glider towing back when I thought that hours were important(they weren't in the least). I had an honest flight line mgr, we had a good mx guy, and he let me work with him on stuff. I didn't make a lot, but I didn't lose any, and the plane was kept in very good shape. I sold it for more than I paid after 21 months.

Second; 1973 Grumman AA5 on leaseback at a normal soCal FBO. The flight line mgr was less than fully honest. He would reschedule people off my plane, and onto two planes that the school owned(172 and 182). My plane didn't move as much. I insisted on a 1.5-2 hour checkout before renting, and not everyone wanted to pay the checkout. Plane was treated poorly by a number of pilots. Small things would be broken. I told the mx chief that I wanted to do all the mx possible, but he usually fixed stuff then billed me and used an excuse 'you weren't avail so I did it and rented it out'. Maybe true, mostly not true, because I was always avail, specifically on nights and wknds. Didn't make any money, lost a small amount of money, but my plane was treated badly. Sold it after 16 months, new owner took it off lease right away, and it was crashed and burned about a year later by the owner.

Get it all in writing. In the first three months of leaseback, plan to spend all weekend and many nights at the FBO. Make sure that the flight ops can't overrule the renter on plane selection except for safety issues. Report every tiny breakage, or wear, or damage as soon as you see it. Make a spreadsheet of all the stuff(cracked glareshield, radio knob loose/missing, tow bar bent, turtledeck fairing cracked, etc) that goes on while it's on lease, and take it up with the ops guy when you leave, or at the time of damage reported. Require a checkout for ALL renters, even if it's a 172 with round gauges. There are some people I refused to rent to because they didn't know how to fly a plane, but still had the license. Go over every statement carefully, and question anything. I had one month where I was charged for 5 hour rental on a C150 that I never flew. Someone else rented it and flew it and put my name in the log and on the schedule. Nice try. Ask for serious discount on gas and oil, and maybe mx services.

It's more work than you first imagine, but it you just leave the plane, and let it rent out with no mgmt, you will pay the price.
 
I haven't done it but houses appreciate (typically)...planes depreciate.

Technically, the house itself depreciates as an asset, on a schedule, but the 'property' appreciates. But - I got your point ok. ;)
 
Hi John,
Can you go into details why the leaseback didn't work for you?
Which aircraft did you have & for how long?
What FBO was it at or if you'd rather not say, which airport?
How many hours was it flying per month on average?
At what point did you realize it was losing money?

I was the leaseback owner in three cases, all in California at Reid Hillview, San Jose. When I operated an FBO and flight School, one at Reid Hillview and the other at San Jose Municipal, I was on the other side with all the aircraft on leaseback. Over a ten year period in the 1970's with the GI bill providing ample students, of the 60+ individual aircraft that we leased, I don't recall a single one that made money for their owner. Some had very positive cash flow, but the wear and tear, high time, and depreciation eliminated any real profit.

As a leaseback owner, all you really get out of the deal is a worn out airplane, a lot of headache and in some instances positive cash flow for the first year or so. I is a bad bad business decision. You subsidize other peoples flying with the allusion you are getting the benefits of ownership. Insurance is sky high, sometimes as much as ten times what you would pay as an individual. All risk is yours. You pay the maintenance, the insurance, usually a handling fee, sometimes a tie down fee, and your bank payment. Renters and students do not treat your airplane kindly and after a few years they will show the wear. Engine and prop reserves are rarely taken into account and it is not uncommon for the engine to require an expensive overhaul every couple of years.
 
I've been on both sides of the leaseback (both as a club officer running leasebacks and as a owner leading planes).

The advice is good. The truth of the matter comes down to getting a decent amount of hours billed in order to recoup the increase in costs. The key is AVAILABILITY. You have to make sure that your maintenance is in check and well timed. People will pick some other plane over one that is frequently unavailable (either down for maintenance or gone for other reasons). As stated, you'll get in line with everybody else when it comes to flying it.
 
I found two of the keys to minimizing the damage was to inspect the plane with a very detailed look every week, usually on a monday afternoon. Note what's working, and what's changed since the last Monday. Give the list to the ops mgr, and advise him of the damage during the week. Some will claim 'normal wear and tear', but stuff like a cracked turtledeck fairing don't happen by just flying the plane, they happen because someone put their hand on it and pushed and turned.

The other is to restrict use to pilots who will agree to a check ride. Even if it's like every other 172 on the line, if your plane has a check ride, then usually the people willing to agree with be more cautious, and it will show in lower mx bills. I recall one check ride I went on with the Grumman and the pilot literally flew it nose gear first onto the runway. I took control, went around, landed, and he never got in that plane again. This is the kind of stuff you need to weed out, or your plane will require 3x normal mx, and at the end of the lease, it'll still be thrashed.
 
Very interesting topic and very timely for me as well.

Would any advice be different for a new plane versus an older plane of having on leaseback? I see the comment above that a new plane should never be considered for leaseback, but what is reason for this? Strictly depreciation of new plane not making it financially reasonable? What if there are incentives from the manufacturer to help overcome this? Does the model become more feasible if training center has set rental rate taking into consideration all expenses for insurance, hangar, maintenance and reserves (engine and prop) so that they are covered to the owner with 350 hour per year break even (all planes currently in fleet using this model and hitting that point)? Feasibility is measured in not losing money when looking at total ownership of the plane.

Just another chapter in learning and absorbing for GA.
 
The illusion if making money because it flies a lot is simply untrue. A plane flying a lot means a lot of maintenance being pencil-whipped to keep the airplane flying and "making money," while screwing the owner over if they decide to take it off lease and try to sell it or keep it for themselves.

A few consecutive months, I billed over 200 hours in a month...woopty doo...

I wish I listened and not leased back a plane. Cost me $18k to fix the plane mechanically into airworthy shape and a major overhaul followed a year later. Never again.

Unless you're a masochist, stay away from leasebacks. Rent a plane, or buy one outright.
 
Technically, the house itself depreciates as an asset, on a schedule, but the 'property' appreciates. But - I got your point ok. ;)

Have you been awake lately? I wouldn't be playing in real estate right now.

Honestly a older airframe will hedge inflation, real estate is way to volatile right now.
 
My apologies for necroing this thread, but I've recently been asked if I was interested in leasing my PA28-140 to my CFI for use in his flight school. I've known him and flown with him for fiften years, highly respect him, and have no reason to distrust him, but I have one large concern and would appreciate any further input.

The good news, in sort of an off-hand way, is that my plane is not worth a lot of money to start with, nor is it beautiful inside or out, so the usual worries about renters "uglifying" a plane are not all that concerning in my case. I paid cash for my plane years ago. My current insurance is about $700, and it would rise to $3800. My engine has less than 300 hours on it. The A&P on the field, who'd be doing the 100hr inspections and maintenance, is excellent and he's helped with my plane previously.

My biggest concern is being responsible for ALL damage, as the proposal was presented. If a student rolls off the runway and blows a tire, I get the bill. Student steps on the wrong part of the wing....pushes on the wrong part of the plane... bird strike, whatever, I get the bill. I understand being responsible for wear and tear, maintenance, etc., but damage due to negligence on the part of the operator being my responsibility doesn't sit well or make sense to me. Is that a typical part of a leaseback? There's a $1000 deductible on the policy, so really as far as hull insurance goes it's only worth something in the event of a fairly major catastrophe... and I'd be the one eating the deductible.

This is already kind of an awkward situation... I hate negotiating in the first place, with ANYONE. Secondly, I consider my CFI a friend of mine (although, as far as I know, he might just be a great CFI who's a very good, friendly business person, if you get my drift), I hangar my plane with him at a very good rate for where we are, and we obviously have a very long flying relationship. The rates and splits discussed are inline or very close to the guidelines discussed elsewhere in this thread, and he's offered to help out with reduced rates on further instruction and some used parts he has that will be needed by my plane during it's current annual. He's also willing to let me use the plane whenever I wish with one day's notice, so scheduling wouldn't be a concern.

Really, the biggest worry, other than making sure enough hours are scheduled to recoup the increase in insurance costs, is that damage will be done to the plane by others, but I'll have to pay for it. Is that typical?
 
A couple things to keep in mind.

First, 100 hour inspections are only required if the plane and CFI are provided by the same entity. If you rent out the plane and they pick the CFI, no 100 hour is required. But don’t forget to do the 100 hour ADs.

You will need to change your insurance policy to allow rentals. I made sure to have the instructors listed as named insureds with no right of subrogation. They were covered by the policy but renters weren’t.

Insurance will probably go from $600 a year to $4,000.

When I started renting my Cherokee it hadn’t flown for a while, so lots of little things broke. I considered that the cost of making the plane flyable. However, I charged the guys who blew up the muffler and put a flat spot in the tire. Be prepared to recover your airplane when someone leaves it at another location because it won’t start or something is broken.

You should spell out in your rental agreement what things are considered normal breakage and what the renter is responsible for.
 
Personally speaking, I have not seen a truly successful outcome which included an otherwise uninvolved owner whose sole function was to provide the asset and pay the bills. By my definition a successful outcome would be something along the lines of "I got more out of this than I put into it." A truly careful accounting must be made to see if that actually happens.

In many businesses the core product offering pays the bills and the small "add-ons" converts the business into a profitable venture. Or some kind of synergistic (sorry to use a dot-bomb word like that, but it applies here) application of resources or talents. For example, one successful leaseback situation I'm aware of involved an aircraft mechanic who bought and sold used aircraft almost like a "flip." He also owned an aircraft part supply/salvage yard and was always buying and selling scrapped/damaged airplanes, engines, components, that sort of thing. So putting all those puzzle pieces together, leasing the current "flip" aircraft to a flying club for a year or two made sense. He was paid to maintain his own aircraft, he was able to utilize his own salvage yard (which the flying club used for its parts) and he made money both coming and going into each transaction. He also traded mechanical work and/or time in his aircraft to CFIs who taught his kids how to fly. I don't think he was growing wealthy by any stretch, but he definitely wasn't losing money. The trick is to weave a spider web like that and then, yes, you could possibly make money owning an aircraft. Of course, that's hardly a business "system" in the sense that it could run without any input from the owner in this case. In reality he had a small, slightly profitable business which required his daily work efforts.

I have owned my Twin Comanche for nearly 20 years and I've never considered leaseback and only idly considered partnership. It is my "baby," and as others have suggested, that's not a good starting point for these kinds of arrangements.
 
My biggest concern is being responsible for ALL damage, as the proposal was presented. If a student rolls off the runway and blows a tire, I get the bill. Student steps on the wrong part of the wing....pushes on the wrong part of the plane... bird strike, whatever, I get the bill. I understand being responsible for wear and tear, maintenance, etc., but damage due to negligence on the part of the operator being my responsibility doesn't sit well or make sense to me. Is that a typical part of a leaseback? There's a $1000 deductible on the policy, so really as far as hull insurance goes it's only worth something in the event of a fairly major catastrophe... and I'd be the one eating the deductible.

Yep, we did this -- owner maintained EVERYTHING, our "cut" was 10/hr. Most leaseback scenarios I see open with 20%.

If your friend proposed this and took a larger cut than that, he's not being fair IMO and you should negotiate.

The way I viewed it, you're renting a plane for training, not just operation -- there is no "negligence", since the student wasn't taught any better. So as the Lessee, your CFI buddy should have a share of training wear/tear expenses, either in reduced commission or defined "who pays for what". For my part, I didn't want to waste staff time arguing over every blown tire with an owner, so I took a smaller bite in exchange for them footing every billed tire, bulb, seat cushion repair, and lost fuel cap.

$0.02
 
Secondly, I consider my CFI a friend of mine (although, as far as I know, he might just be a great CFI who's a very good, friendly business person, if you get my drift), I hangar my plane with him at a very good rate for where we are, and we obviously have a very long flying relationship.

Not going to pretend to know anything about the real world of leasebacks, but IRL I'm a corporate lawyer and if there was ever an old adage that I've seen proven true time and again its "the primary cost of going into business with a friend is the friendship." As you say, maybe it's less of a friend and just a friendly business person, but there is an existing relationship to consider if things ever go sour (and they often do). Just my two cents!
 
Downsides
2. You are paying for 100 hr inspections, not an annual
Make that 100 hour inspections PLUS an annual

1. If you don't care about the condition of the airplane, it *may* be financially advantageous.
In order to make money on a leaseback, the plane has to fly. A lot. The key to getting it flying a lot is availability. This means:

1. You get in line behind everybody else for its use.
2. You keep on top of maintenance so the plane is not "down" when people want to fly it.
3. You make sure the flight school/club/whatever is actively trying to rent it.

I've been on both sides of the leaseback business. It's a business. It's not like renting out your spare room on airbnb.
 
2. You keep on top of maintenance so the plane is not "down" when people want to fly it.

That reminded me of an acquaintance who leased his PA-28 140 to a local flight school for a few years, with the agreement that the flight school would take care of all maintenance, etc., and he would just cash the checks when they came in. I think the school didn't want to miss out on any rental opportunities..
All went well until the AP quit, and the new AP grounded the plane for severe lack of maintenance and other major issues. I spoke to him in person, and his comments were "I've never seen anything like it. It's BAD"
I actually flew this plane once, before knowing any of this. It had a pretty strong fuel smell and I never flew it again.
They ended up with a lawsuit. It was revealed that many records were falsified, etc., and eventually they settled for the flight school buying the plane at the owners requested amount. Haven't heard much else, but I know there was talk about the AP getting investigated.
Later on, the same flight school had a fatal accident when a pilot (former student) went down in one of their other planes. I believe that accident is still under investigation, and may have been pilot induced, but I'm not sure at this time.
Sorry I can't help with any first hand experience, but I'd say at a minimum you'll definitely want to keep an eye on things, or have an AP/flight school you absolutely trust.
 
Back
Top