Pilot Skills: Today Versus 40 Years Ago

[VWGhiaBob]

I see posted in many posts (most recently my Cirrus thread) that today's pilots lack flying skills compared with the "real" pilots of several decades ago.

Can I take issue with that?

I got my PPL in 1972 (and followed aviation for 10 years before that) and recently came back after a 41 year break. My observations, then versus now:

* PPL is much more difficult to pass now and requires WAY more precise flying skills than when I learned

* ATC has become much more complex, and flying in complex airspace requires a degree of precision that was simply not required before

* Until the BFR, I was always amazed that I was allowed to get in the cockpit with no re-verification of my skills, except for currency

* There's way more focus today on risks of flying and skills needed to keep us safe than 40 years ago

Yes, I'm sure there are some "jock" taildragger / aerobatic pilots out there that could arguably assert that their skills far surpass others.

But on the whole, I bet if you could compare the skills of a freshly minted PPL decades ago with one from today, the more recent pilot would win, hands down, no question.

 

[poadeleted21]

Let's see those guys load up the GPS-A in a GTN 750.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Back then pilots geeked out on analog dials while the plane bumbled along. Now pilots geek out on tv screens while the tv drives the plane. Both suck. Neither one is really flying.

 

[MyassisDragon]

That's a different perspective and provokes good conversation (and debate to some) . I am a newly minted pilot compared to your first experiences. I learned in tower environments and had not thought of what it was like to get a ppl 40 years ago.

Thanks for sharing,


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[zaitcev]

But on the whole, I bet if you could compare the skills of a freshly minted PPL decades ago with one from today, the more recent pilot would win, hands down, no question.

But you did spin training, didn't you? In Russia they are even required to exit the spin on a specific heading.

What I'm getting at, a modern private pilot is superior in his ability to complete a flight safely or cancel, thanks to the emphasis on ADM. However, his stick and rudder skills are probably inferior. I know I had trouble with handling crosswind landings when I passed my checkride.

 

[poadeleted21]

The way you learned is, of course, the beat way.

By my estimation, most of the pilots learned to fly 40 years ago.

 

[RoscoeT]

New pilots today are much better at making excessive and completely unnecessary radio calls, following rote procedures, reciting what "they were taught", avoiding more than 20 degrees of bank in the pattern, flying massive patterns and 3 degree approaches, relying on the VASI for day VFR flying, tacking on extra airspeed on final, not knowing what the rudder is for, relying on navigation technology, and thinking they are all special snowflakes in the 90th percentile of piloting knowledge and skill.

 

[txflyer]

New pilots today are much better at making excessive and completely unnecessary radio calls, following rote procedures, reciting what "they were taught", avoiding more than 20 degrees of bank in the pattern, flying massive patterns and 3 degree approaches, relying on the VASI for day VFR flying, tacking on extra airspeed on final, not knowing what the rudder is for, relying on navigation technology, and thinking they are all special snowflakes in the 90th percentile of piloting knowledge and skill.

Dayyyuum!, new pilot's just got Roscoe'd!

Is this a pilot cockpit measuring thread? Who's better? The chicken or the egg?

I learned forty years ago, so I'm better.

 

[Bill Watson]

I started flying in 1970 (and RC or RPVs in '66 and I think it counts). Simple fact is that flying is easier and safer today so pilot skills, whatever you consider those skills to be, are not as rigorous or demanding as they used to be. In that environment, the average skill level will naturally tend to diminish.

The easier and safer thing is good and the average skill level thing is natural and okay.

For example, tailwheel pilots are better stick and rudder pilots because they have to be - with a nosewheel, the skills required aren't as rigorous.

And pre-GPS IFR pilots had better situational awareness skills because they had to have them. Some of the mental gymnastics just aren't required any longer.

Heck, pre-ANR headset users were better interpreters of ATC instructions because they couldn't hear half of them but now they are clear as a bell.

All of those skills erode if no longer needed or used. New skills and capabilities flourish where enabled. On average, we're all more capable and safer pilots - check the numbers.

...but no one knows the sky like cross country glider guiders!

 

[denverpilot]

I suspect the real answer to pilot skill still lies in the number of accidents attributed to pilot error.

 

[coloradobluesky]

I have a friend, who is older than I am, that learned to fly in a J3. He told me this story. He went on a cross country in his J3, in Illinois. He got lost. He was looking down at the ground and saw a farmer on his tractor in his field. So he LANDED in the field. The farmer saw him and came over. He was embarrassed and said "if a guy was to buy some shoes around here, where would he buy a pair of shoes, what town would that be?" The farmer got it and said, "oh, ok, yes, well the next town over there is Johnsonville and Markinville is 12 miles that way" Our entrepid pilot went over to his airplane, looked at his map, and took off, now oriented. True story. Those were the days!

 

[Cpt_Kirk]

New pilots today are much better at making excessive and completely unnecessary radio calls, following rote procedures, reciting what "they were taught", avoiding more than 20 degrees of bank in the pattern, flying massive patterns and 3 degree approaches, relying on the VASI for day VFR flying, tacking on extra airspeed on final, not knowing what the rudder is for, relying on navigation technology, and thinking they are all special snowflakes in the 90th percentile of piloting knowledge and skill.

The unnecessary radio calls is one of the biggest pet peeves that I have.

"Roger, cleared to land on runway 03 right, wind 030 @ 4, number 3 in final behind the white Cessna with the STOL kit, thank you very much for clearing me to land. Thank you. Thanks. Your Thank You card is in the mail."

 

[asgcpa]

I have a friend, who is older than I am, that learned to fly in a J3. He told me this story. He went on a cross country in his J3, in Illinois. He got lost. He was looking down at the ground and saw a farmer on his tractor in his field. So he LANDED in the field. The farmer saw him and came over. He was embarrassed and said "if a guy was to buy some shoes around here, where would he buy a pair of shoes, what town would that be?" The farmer got it and said, "oh, ok, yes, well the next town over there is Johnsonville and Markinville is 12 miles that way" Our entrepid pilot went over to his airplane, looked at his map, and took off, now oriented. True story. Those were the days!

I can understand. As a 16 year old learning to fly in western Canada some 35 years ago, planes I learned in had no gps, most had no autopilots, and most had no VOR. I think if lucky there was an adf. Got lost on my solo XC. How did I find my position? Noted a grain elevator with the town name on it. Found it on my map and away I went.

 

[Geico266]

I can understand. As a 16 year old learning to fly in western Canada some 35 years ago, planes I learned in had no gps, most had no autopilots, and most had no VOR. I think if lucky there was an adf. Got lost on my solo XC. How did I find my position? Noted a grain elevator with the town name on it. Found it on my map and away I went.

Water towers work well also.

 

[dtuuri]

I think I'm better than I was 40 years ago.

dtuuri

 

[Bill]

...but no one knows the sky like cross country glider guiders!

I just love this board sometimes, everyone has to beat on their chests and let fly their loudest Tarzan call. Cracks me up.

 

[VWGhiaBob]

From the OP...

Some of the usual "I'm better than you are" banter above...but also some great insights. Point well taken...that even before my time stick and rudder were more important in taildraggers and those pilots' skills probably exceeded mine, then and now.

Even those of us who learned in the 70's flew "easy" planes. For me, it was N6764J, a venerable PA28 with 140 horses. It's still flying. The 70's were peak years for aviation. I still remember the new planes at my FBO like a car dealer with stickers and all. There was always at least one Cardinal and for some time, there was a new Skymaster. Does anyone remember when the Skymaster was used to make a Ford Pinto into a plane? I do.

I digress. Great memories. Back to the point...no I didn't have spin training. At there was no such thing as Class B or TCA. In fact, I had a close call with a PSA 727 one day when I decided to practice over the bay near KPAO in what I later learned was the KSFO approach path.

AND, there really weren't robust PTS's.

Perhaps I'm in a unique position to judge. I flew then, and not again until now. I can say without a doubt that flying is more demanding and the skills required to get a PPL are more advanced and defined.

As I advance toward my instrument rating at 59, I am thankful for the many advances over the years, the high standards I'm held to, and the incredible privileges I enjoy as a pilot.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

I was pretty good at flying an airplane 40 years ago. Now? I get by.

 

[docmirror]

Guess I'll go with the consensus. Best adjective I can come up with is that the skills have 'morphed' in the past 40 years. I believe that modern training teaches someone how to better manage a flight. Past training in the 70s and 80s taught people how to actually pilot a plane through the air. A perfect example is IMSAFE. Nothing like this would have ever been thought up in the late 70s. Back then, if you met the 8 hour(or no effects) rule, and could spot a mouse on the ground at 30 paces you were good to go! Now, I have to evaluate my emotional state before cranking the engine - guh...

With another recent thread, the tools modern GA pilots have today are fantastic. Electronic cockpits, in flight weather, heck - anything with a pink or even green line to follow are a vast improvement over my somewhat warm running tube Escort 110 radio with a balky Khz knob.

I happened to be at the airport when one of the students was coming in on Wed and watched him from downwind. The ubiquitous Cher 140. Radio calls all the way, power up, power down, power up, power down, he got it near the runway, with all three wheels and the engine going pretty good and he just gave up on it and let the plane land itself while he move the throttle back and put on the brakes. Used up about 3000' of the 4000' runway to land a Cher 140. Oh well, I'm sure he was thinking 'IMSAFE' as he turned off.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Guess I'll go with the consensus. Best adjective I can come up with is that the skills have 'morphed' in the past 40 years. I believe that modern training teaches someone how to better manage a flight. Past training in the 70s and 80s taught people how to actually pilot a plane through the air. A perfect example is IMSAFE. Nothing like this would have ever been thought up in the late 70s. Back then, if you met the 8 hour(or no effects) rule, and could spot a mouse on the ground at 30 paces you were good to go! Now, I have to evaluate my emotional state before cranking the engine - guh...

Briefings. Never used to get one for a local flight. Just look out the window. Looks good? Fly.

With another recent thread, the tools modern GA pilots have today are fantastic. Electronic cockpits, in flight weather, heck - anything with a pink or even green line to follow are a vast improvement over my somewhat warm running tube Escort 110 radio with a balky Khz knob.

The Escort 110 was a big step up from the Narco IForgetWhat that was in the airplane.

I flew into a towered airport last weekend (jxn) for the first time in about 6 years. I tend to avoid them. Probably a hold over from not using the radio years ago.

Used up about 3000' of the 4000' runway to land a Cher 140. Oh well, I'm sure he was thinking 'IMSAFE' as he turned off.

That's one thing that hasn't changed. I used to watch the Cherokees burn up the whole length of the runway (3500 ft.) at what is now VLL (Troy MI) over and over and over again.

A guy I knew (same dorm - early '70s)) had been working on his PP out of ARB (Ann Arbor MI) - got the check ride and came back all ****ed off. "Did you flunk?" "No" "What's the problem?" He launches into what an ass the examiner was and how unfair he was etc. etc. Finally - "so what was it that you had to do?" Well, the examiner had taken him to this airport with a really tiny runway and after 2 or 3 go-arounds told him "land or fail". He managed to land, but it was no fair that he was forced to have to go to this tiny airport, blah, blah, blah.. The whole time, I'm running through the list of airports trying to figure out where there was one that was so short - so I finally asked - what airport? "New Hudson." OK - New Hudson? (now Y47 - 3128 x 40) - that's where I used to go with my brother to practice wheel landings since they had such a nice new runway. He couldn't get into New Hudson? I decided I didn't want to fly with that guy.

 

[brien23]

40 years ago not uncommon to see 40+ hours pass PPL now the average is 60 to 70+ hours. Most things in aviation have changed for the better and Pilot skills today are better than they were 40 years ago. Back 50 years ago I recall some WWII pilots saying the same thing about new Pilots not having the stick and rudder skills they had.

 

[docmirror]

A guy I knew (same dorm - early '70s)) had been working on his PP out of ARB (Ann Arbor MI) - got the check ride and came back all ****ed off. "Did you flunk?" "No" "What's the problem?" He launches into what an ass the examiner was and how unfair he was etc. etc. Finally - "so what was it that you had to do?" Well, the examiner had taken him to this airport with a really tiny runway and after 2 or 3 go-arounds told him "land or fail". He managed to land, but it was no fair that he was forced to have to go to this tiny airport, blah, blah, blah.. The whole time, I'm running through the list of airports trying to figure out where there was one that was so short - so I finally asked - what airport? "New Hudson." OK - New Hudson? (now Y47 - 3128 x 40) - that's where I used to go with my brother to practice wheel landings since they had such a nice new runway. He couldn't get into New Hudson? I decided I didn't want to fly with that guy.

"Land or fail"

I miss the 70s.

I was picking up a plane and had a CFI with me for some hood work. I went into a semi-paved 2100' strip in central AZ and he was asking a bunch of questions like 'are you sure you are ready for this strip? Whats the plan if you don't stop in time? etc'. I could tell he was nervous. Younger guy, maybe mid-20s. I showed off a bit, and had it stopped by near mid-field. He was -- gobsmacked.

 

[N747JB]

This was about 25 years ago, so I'm not sure how it falls into the 40 year scensrio. I was flying from a small strip west of Atlanta 20GA, it was Stockmar airport at the time, to Destin in our 182. I was VFR and real nervous about the Eglin airspace! Anyway, I got a little confused on my exact whereabouts. Actually, I was lost.
It was a pretty Saturday afternoon and I could not for the life of me figure out where I was! I spotted a small airport, it looked like an uncontrolled field, so I over flew it at about 2000 feet, looked at the windsock, and joined the pattern. Landed, went into the trailer/FBO bought a Diet Coke and a pack of crackers, spotted the name of the airport and I was on my way.

I have a friend, who is older than I am, that learned to fly in a J3. He told me this story. He went on a cross country in his J3, in Illinois. He got lost. He was looking down at the ground and saw a farmer on his tractor in his field. So he LANDED in the field. The farmer saw him and came over. He was embarrassed and said "if a guy was to buy some shoes around here, where would he buy a pair of shoes, what town would that be?" The farmer got it and said, "oh, ok, yes, well the next town over there is Johnsonville and Markinville is 12 miles that way" Our entrepid pilot went over to his airplane, looked at his map, and took off, now oriented. True story. Those were the days!

 

[peppy]

You must live a long way from me. What I hear are the older pilots who are VFR only call up and stumble for ages trying to get flight following.

As far as what you learn, when the FAA shifted the emphasis from spin recover to stall recovery and spin avoidance the spin accident rate went down. I did spin training anyway because I wanted to.

A friend, now deceased, got signed off after about 10 hours and flew for a long time before finally getting her license when she needed it to carry passengers and enter air races. You couldn't do that today. She said that back when she learned that a solo sign off meant you could go anywhere. You just couldn't carry a passenger.

You could argue that the nature of flying back then (no autopilot, no GPS) forced more stick and rudder currency but that argument doesn't apply to the newly minted pilot. I never once used an AP while getting my private.

Today I see cases of crashes where, had the pilot used the AP, he could have gotten out of a VFR into IMC situation but didn't. Basic skills are important but so is being able to use everything in the plane to get out of trouble.

New pilots today are much better at making excessive and completely unnecessary radio calls, following rote procedures, reciting what "they were taught", avoiding more than 20 degrees of bank in the pattern, flying massive patterns and 3 degree approaches, relying on the VASI for day VFR flying, tacking on extra airspeed on final, not knowing what the rudder is for, relying on navigation technology, and thinking they are all special snowflakes in the 90th percentile of piloting knowledge and skill.

 

[cowman]

I dunno how it could be that different. We've got gps and some other nice digital tech now but the human being design has not been updated and most of us are still flying the same airplanes.

 

[Alexb2000]

It's all the same. Humans learn some things and forget others. We don't get better, just look at the average Walmart worker. Looks like a genetic grease trap.

 

[VWGhiaBob]

Another amusing memory from my checkride in the 70's...

A lot of folks don't remember that air pollution was much much worse in the 70's...I mean dark brown in LA and SFO. It's an almost-complete turnaround since then.

On my check ride, the examiner said, "You got lucky. It's so polluted today, I'm not comfortable descending into the brown soup away from the airport...so the emergency approach is not on the agenda today!."

I'll never forget pulling back after landing on the 2,400 ft. KPAO runway (which no one told me was short). I thought I did a terrible job and was prepared for the worst. The examiner said, "Great job. You are now a private pilot."

Would I have passed today's standards? Hmmm...that was 42 years ago...I'd guess not. Could I pass today...absolutely...after much instruction and self-imposed discipline to relearn at today's higher standards.

 

[Bonchie]

A guy I knew (same dorm - early '70s)) had been working on his PP out of ARB (Ann Arbor MI) - got the check ride and came back all ****ed off. "Did you flunk?" "No" "What's the problem?" He launches into what an ass the examiner was and how unfair he was etc. etc. Finally - "so what was it that you had to do?" Well, the examiner had taken him to this airport with a really tiny runway and after 2 or 3 go-arounds told him "land or fail". He managed to land, but it was no fair that he was forced to have to go to this tiny airport, blah, blah, blah.. The whole time, I'm running through the list of airports trying to figure out where there was one that was so short - so I finally asked - what airport? "New Hudson." OK - New Hudson? (now Y47 - 3128 x 40) - that's where I used to go with my brother to practice wheel landings since they had such a nice new runway. He couldn't get into New Hudson? I decided I didn't want to fly with that guy.

Where you learn probably has a lot to do with helping shape those skills.

My runway is 2600x40 and surrounded by trees in a valley. You learn very quickly to work the rudder all the way to the ground and how to hit your spot.

 

[zaitcev]

This was about 25 years ago, so I'm not sure how it falls into the 40 year scensrio. (...) Anyway, I got a little confused on my exact whereabouts. Actually, I was lost.

It happens even now, just like 25 years ago. I got lost in a rental 150, N2966V. I was too used to rely on New Mexico mountains for pilotage, but something possessed me to fly out into the flats of "western Kansas" and it's like flyng over the ocean!

Anyway, 2966V had cigar plug not working, so I kept my GPS for emergencies. It only had battery power for 40 minutes, if that. The VOR was INOP (not yet placarded back when I rented it, they since marked it INOP). So, once I realized that I was lost, I pulled out my GPS, turned it on, it it said "NO SIGNAL" - could not get any signal for some reason. I was somewhere near Canon AFB, so I tried to call their Approach, but received on reply. Maybe the frequency was wrong, or they were closed for weekend. I started to prepare myself for a dead-stick into Canon and getting arrested, when I spied a highway. I followed that highway out to Clovis and landed with 4 or 6 gallons, I don't recall.

It's not as cool as landing in a field, but it may happen that GPS just conks. We have experimental GPS jammers in the state.

 

[txflyer]

Where you learn probably has a lot to do with helping shape those skills.

My runway is 2600x40 and surrounded by trees in a valley. You learn very quickly to work the rudder all the way to the ground and how to hit your spot.

Word.

It's all about touching the plane down on the spot you want, not what the plane wants.

Knowing how to fly at the bottom of your planes envelope is crucial. It takes practice. High alpha approaches are different than lazy 3 degree glide-slopes. If I'm not doing it pretty often, I won't take a rider with me until I get better. Unless, that rider likes go-arounds and sometimes copious amounts of expletives expressed by their PIC.

 

[ChrisK]

Word.

It's all about touching the plane down on the spot you want, not what the plane wants.

Knowing how to fly at the bottom of your planes envelope is crucial. It takes practice. High alpha approaches are different than lazy 3 degree glide-slopes. If I'm not doing it pretty often, I won't take a rider with me until I get better. Unless, that rider likes go-arounds and sometimes copious amounts of expletives expressed by their PIC.

My first flight in a Cessna 172 near MGW was not that long ago. My non-current pilot stepfather was unimpressed with my go-around (which included a brief touchdown) during not fun gusty conditions with my oblivious brother in law in the back.

Stepfather said "you could have stopped. You were on the ground!" I said "but I already put in go-around power!!" I'm sure there were a few expletives uttered then too

 

[VWGhiaBob]

My getting lost experience in the mountains 42 years ago...

Tried using the sectional, but nothing looked right. So I quickly tuned in 2 VOR's, drew lines with pencil on the sectional, and found myself at the intersection. Problem solved.

Ahh...the good old daze!

 

[txflyer]

My first flight in a Cessna 172 near MGW was not that long ago. My non-current pilot stepfather was unimpressed with my go-around (which included a brief touchdown) during not fun gusty conditions with my oblivious brother in law in the back.

Stepfather said "you could have stopped. You were on the ground!" I said "but I already put in go-around power!!" I'm sure there were a few expletives uttered then too

Flying with other pilot's is the worst. Much less related used-to-be pilots ...

When go around power is shoved in, that's it. No if's, and's, or butt's.

I'll bet your BIL was **** faced. If I do a short field missed, the pit get's busy and things can get bumpy and serious for a few seconds while I make adjustments. It's not the time to critique why I'm going around...

 

[RoscoeT]

When go around power is shoved in, that's it. No if's, and's, or butt's.

You can pull power off just as quickly as you added it. No reason to commit to a go-around if you are on the ground and have plenty of runway to stop.

 

[Bob Noel]

With the much better weather products available today, we don't have to pay as much attention to the little nuances like pilots did 40 years ago.

I don't know if that's better or worse.

 

[Bonchie]

My getting lost experience in the mountains 42 years ago...

Tried using the sectional, but nothing looked right. So I quickly tuned in 2 VOR's, drew lines with pencil on the sectional, and found myself at the intersection. Problem solved.

Ahh...the good old daze!

That's still taught today. Very useful way to find your position.

 

[poadeleted21]

I dunno how it could be that different. We've got gps and some other nice digital tech now but the human being design has not been updated and most of us are still flying the same airplanes.

Evolution. It's real. The young ones are much smarter/better than the last generation.

 

[wsuffa]

USA today doesn't think pilot skills are a problem....

(Stirs pot, ducks, runs)

 

[chemgeek]

Back in the olde days we we did everything by hand, could use slide rules, and flew xc upwind both ways. In the absence of real data, I don't know if the recently trained pilot population has better or worse stick and rudder skills than older pilots. I suspect skills have a lot more to do with your instructor and how you are taught rather than when it happened.

 

[txflyer]

You can pull power off just as quickly as you added it. No reason to commit to a go-around if you are on the ground and have plenty of runway to stop.

I'll stipulate to that.

Sometimes I land two or three times in one landing quite often.