PIlot Deviation

jkaduk said:
I've never heard of that. I've had many a speed restriction on arrival. Slowest I can recall was probably 90 kts in a Bonanza. Doable but not very comfortable.
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It is a recommended minimum. Really shouldn't be assigned anything less. Shouldn't be assigned a speed adjustment inside the FAF or 5 miles from the runway but that happens as well. "If able" is the key phrase when violating the order. :D

From the .65 as well as AIM 4-4-12:

c. To arrival aircraft operating below 10,000 feet:

1. Turbojet aircraft. A speed not less than 210 knots; except when the aircraft is within 20 flying miles of the runway threshold of the airport of intended landing, a speed not less than 170 knots.

2. Reciprocating engine and turboprop aircraft. A speed not less than 200 knots; except when the aircraft is within 20 flying miles of the runway threshold of the airport of intended landing, a speed not less than 150 knots.
 
That you for all the responses. This has been good reading. I thought when you are given a number to call you have done something really bad like busted bravo or cross onto a runway you were not supposed to cross.

It appeared the controller was quick to give out the phone number.
 
evapilotaz said:
That you for all the responses. This has been good reading. I thought when you are given a number to call you have done something really bad like busted bravo or cross onto a runway you were not supposed to cross.

It appeared the controller was quick to give out the phone number.
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I was quick to give out my phone number when I was younger but I seldom got called.

:(
 
evapilotaz said:
That you for all the responses. This has been good reading. I thought when you are given a number to call you have done something really bad like busted bravo or cross onto a runway you were not supposed to cross.

It appeared the controller was quick to give out the phone number.
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David, quit while you're behind man. ;)
 
jkaduk said:
I've never heard of that. I've had many a speed restriction on arrival. Slowest I can recall was probably 90 kts in a Bonanza. Doable but not very comfortable.
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It's in the 7110.65. Not all controllers are created equal.

If I didn't feel comfortable at a speed ATC assigned me I'd just say unable and tell them the slowest (in this case) speed you're willing to maintain.
 
luvflyin said:
report downwind again at a speed compatible with the traffic pattern
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Sorry, I don't want to sound pedantic, but if you are entering unfamiliar airport how would you know your speed is compatible or not with the with the planes are in the pattern?

When flying I try really hard not to annoy any controllers and it's a genuine question. Obviously 200 knots, or even 170 knots is probably a touch fast, but is it really expected to slow to 80 knots? If you know the area and there's lots of school operations there and you should use your best judgement obviously, but if you're flying into an unfamiliar space then is entering downwind at 120 too fast?

I assume the controller would ask me to slow down or speed things up, but being told to leave the traffic pattern and come back at a more reasonable speed would strike me as having a little bit of edge to it. Maybe I'm just sensitive
 
Tantalum said:
but if you are entering unfamiliar airport how would you know your speed is compatible or not with the with the planes are in the pattern?
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If you see this you might wanna slow down.

stock-photo-flying-jet-aircraft-in-the-sky-rear-view-close-up-568294789.jpg
 
Tantalum said:
Obviously 200 knots, or even 170 knots is probably a touch fast, but is it really expected to slow to 80 knots? If you know the area and there's lots of school operations there and you should use your best judgement obviously, but if you're flying into an unfamiliar space then is entering downwind at 120 too fast?

I assume the controller would ask me to slow down or speed things up, but being told to leave the traffic pattern and come back at a more reasonable speed would strike me as having a little bit of edge to it. Maybe I'm just sensitive
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Long as you're 200 or less controller shouldn't care unless you're really closing in on other traffic. A controller won't ask you to adjust your speed if it's not going to be a factor. Myself I'd just say " #2 to follow the eman V-Bo on downwind, report base", allows you to adjust your speed/distance. But if ya get too close I'll send ya around or issue a turn for spacing. I'll think of something.
 
mscard88 said:
If you see this you might wanna slow down.
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DL1437, can you keep your speed up, I have a Cirrus behind you. HA! I guess if you need to really slow down in a hurry you can always pull the red handle
 
Tantalum said:
I assume the controller would ask me to slow down or speed things up, but being told to leave the traffic pattern and come back at a more reasonable speed would strike me as having a little bit of edge to it. Maybe I'm just sensitive
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Me too. My reply back would be, "okay sir, while I'm spinning donuts up here to keep your OCD under control can you let me know what speed you'd like me to lower the gear, apply first notch of flaps, full flaps, and use for Vref, oh by the way, how many hours time in this type do you have"? :)
 
Tantalum said:
Sorry, I don't want to sound pedantic, but if you are entering unfamiliar airport how would you know your speed is compatible or not with the with the planes are in the pattern?
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By listening to the radio?
 
Tantalum said:
Sorry, I don't want to sound pedantic, but if you are entering unfamiliar airport how would you know your speed is compatible or not with the with the planes are in the pattern?

When flying I try really hard not to annoy any controllers and it's a genuine question. Obviously 200 knots, or even 170 knots is probably a touch fast, but is it really expected to slow to 80 knots? If you know the area and there's lots of school operations there and you should use your best judgement obviously, but if you're flying into an unfamiliar space then is entering downwind at 120 too fast?

I assume the controller would ask me to slow down or speed things up, but being told to leave the traffic pattern and come back at a more reasonable speed would strike me as having a little bit of edge to it. Maybe I'm just sensitive
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If you are flying say a King Air, Twin Cessna etc and ya call up the Tower out yonder with info whatever and they tell you to make whatever traffic for whatever runway and report downwind and in the meantime the Tower is tellin Cessna whoever he's number most of the fingers on your hand following a Cherokee and they are tellin mooney whats his name to extend downwind to leave room for a departure, and a couple more planes have called up out yonder and got the same report downwind speech and planes are being told to hold short, number four for departure and planes are stepping on each other etc etc, then screamin into the pattern as fast as you can, slats flaps and wheels up is just plain poor judgment. Speed "compatible with traffic pattern" doesnt have a particular 'number.' It's just plain common sense. Yes, being told depart the pattern and re-enter at a reasonable speed does have an 'edge' to it.
 
"Make left/right 360" will work as well. Though, I don't recall ever having to issue it.
 
luvflyin said:
If you are flying say a King Air, Twin Cessna etc and ya call up the Tower out yonder with info whatever and they tell you to make whatever traffic for whatever runway and report downwind and in the meantime the Tower is tellin Cessna whoever he's number most of the fingers on your hand following a Cherokee and they are tellin mooney whats his name to extend downwind to leave room for a departure, and a couple more planes have called up out yonder and got the same report downwind speech and planes are being told to hold short, number four for departure and planes are stepping on each other etc etc, then screamin into the pattern as fast as you can, slats flaps and wheels up is just plain poor judgment. Speed "compatible with traffic pattern" doesnt have a particular 'number.' It's just plain common sense. Yes, being told depart the pattern and re-enter at a reasonable speed does have an 'edge' to it.
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I do get the point about having SA that you are trying to make and no one has ever had too much SA.

I differ from you a bit on the "depart the pattern and report downwind again at a speed compatible with the traffic pattern". "Speed compatible" and "reasonable speed" are way too subjective and mean very different things to higher performing planes and each plane driver. I'd use different tools in the box. i.e. Use both right and left traffic, inform the higher performing aircraft to fly his pattern 500' higher, extending downwind, making short approaches, issuing 360 on downwind, instructing an aircraft that is doing touch and go's that this one will be a full stop taxi back due to pattern saturation, doing a better job with 3000'/4500' runway separation, maintain max forward speed, reduce to slowest practical, etc. My last resort would be to politely ask an aircraft that you've already given clearance to enter the airspace to exit it. If you couldn't take one more plane you should have known that and told them on initial call to remain outside the D/C airspace until you had room.

Just respectful slight disagreeing with you. Thank you for past service keeping all us separated.
 
DVT is a nuthouse even on the best of days. If turning off on the incorrect taxiway or not turning downwind caused a conflict (or a loss of separation in the air) ATC may be *required* to submit a report.. mostly for the latter. As far as the "too fast" thing it would be interesting to know more. I know I have been left stupid high and then gotten cleared for the visual and had to get it down somehow... But I feel like there may be more to that story. Maybe the guy does it all the time and he's been told before to mix with traffic better. Maybe approach slowed him and once he got the visual he sped up again. Who knows. Mostly unrelated the south east/west practice area was also a nuthouse this morning. People barking at other people on freq for not reporting and then people stepping on people multiple times. Ugh. A lot has changed even since I learned here in 2012.
 
luvflyin said:
Yes, being told depart the pattern and re-enter at a reasonable speed does have an 'edge' to it.
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Thanks, in your example it's pretty obvious that you shouldn't come flying into the pattern (pun intended) but being asked to leave the pattern would make me feel like an idiot vs a 360 and "you're following a Cherokee" would be a pretty obvious hint that I was too fast

Thanks for the detailed response, always looking to not annoy controllers; that's a job I couldn't do so appreciate what you guys do, like radar said
 
Palmpilot said:
It's all OK until I have to declare minimum fuel! ;)
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I've had that happen. Told a couple of Test Wing F-4s to hold outside the ATA (what class D used to be called) and boom! They declared not minimum, but emergency fuel. Had to let 'em in.

You do know what minimum fuel does for you right? May not be what you think.
 
mscard88 said:
How about a 720*? :D
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My first night flight ever, doing laps at the nearby Class D, tower asked me to do a right 360 on downwind to let helicopter traffic land. Then a second one. Then a third and finally a fourth . . . Then I was cleared to land in the mighty Skyhawk.

Fun times! As we were heading home, I called my right turnout and added, "this student pilot thanks you for the itroduction to night flight" with a laugh for good measure.
 
Radar Contact said:
I do get the point about having SA that you are trying to make and no one has ever had too much SA.

I differ from you a bit on the "depart the pattern and report downwind again at a speed compatible with the traffic pattern". "Speed compatible" and "reasonable speed" are way too subjective and mean very different things to higher performing planes and each plane driver. I'd use different tools in the box. i.e. Use both right and left traffic, inform the higher performing aircraft to fly his pattern 500' higher, extending downwind, making short approaches, issuing 360 on downwind, instructing an aircraft that is doing touch and go's that this one will be a full stop taxi back due to pattern saturation, doing a better job with 3000'/4500' runway separation, maintain max forward speed, reduce to slowest practical, etc. My last resort would be to politely ask an aircraft that you've already given clearance to enter the airspace to exit it. If you couldn't take one more plane you should have known that and told them on initial call to remain outside the D/C airspace until you had room.

Just respectful slight disagreeing with you. Thank you for past service keeping all us separated.
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I agree with all you say. This whole thing started with a comment I made about an airplane entering downwind at a very excessive speed into a busy pattern. Hot Rod, Flat Hatting speeds. Subjecting everyone else who is flying 'sanely' to extensions, 360's, max and min speeds, making a 'pattern rat' full stop, etc etc to accommodate Roger Ramjet, or patiently wait to get a word in edgewise while he is getting a bunch of unnecessary extra transmissions doesn't fit my priority list. Yes, 'speed compatible' and 'reasonable speed' are subjective. They don't have a 'number,' but I think it is more than clear to the guy who just entered downwind into a busy pattern, clean as a whistle with pedal to the metal.
 
Tantalum said:
Thanks, in your example it's pretty obvious that you shouldn't come flying into the pattern (pun intended) but being asked to leave the pattern would make me feel like an idiot vs a 360 and "you're following a Cherokee" would be a pretty obvious hint that I was too fast

Thanks for the detailed response, always looking to not annoy controllers; that's a job I couldn't do so appreciate what you guys do, like radar said
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Yeah, I hear you. Being 'chastised' on frequency is embarrassing and uncalled for. Like you said before, being told to leave the pattern and re-enter has an 'edge' to it and I agree. In this case, the couple of times I did it, that 'edge' was deliberate. Without going into one of those controller 'rants' you hear every now and then, the message was conveyed without tying up the frequency.
EDIT: Just want to add that what we are talking about here is not student pilots or the average GA pilot. It is about pilots of very high performance planes who are 'experienced' and should NTFB.
 
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Sometimes the pattern is full and ya have to send 'em out to reenter. Did it occasionally at USAF bases but usually was fighters.

 
As a controller, I would like to see pilots realize what it takes for a controller to manage a mix of slow, fast and heavy aircraft with no reduced runway separation on ONE 13,000' runway. I do it every day.
 
Timbeck2 said:
As a controller, I would like to see pilots realize what it takes for a controller to manage a mix of slow, fast and heavy aircraft with no reduced runway separation on ONE 13,000' runway. I do it every day.
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I gather you're at DMAFB? Just curious, since I'm based at KTUS. :)
 
Timbeck2 said:
As a controller, I would like to see pilots realize what it takes for a controller to manage a mix of slow, fast and heavy aircraft with no reduced runway separation on ONE 13,000' runway. I do it every day.
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Yeah... most of what I've read here seems like pilots that won't, or don't know how to slow down their airplanes. I can slow an A321 to 150 kts if needed, yet some here have trouble slowing a Mooney to 120.
 
Heard this one afternoon at ATL. The arrival controller was busy (always are at ATL) and his nickname was "Smiley", because I guess he never smiled but a real good controller. Anyway, Comair was going at a speed obviously faster than what Smiley had assigned, so he says "Comair your speed is blah blah faster than everyone else, slow to 160". Comair Captain replies do you know what this jet (CRJ) stalls at, and Smiley, without skipping a beat says, "negative but your FO probably does". Classic.
 
mscard88 said:
Heard this one afternoon at ATL. The arrival controller was busy (always are at ATL) and his nickname was "Smiley", because I guess he never smiled but a real good controller. Anyway, Comair was going at a speed obviously faster than what Smiley had assigned, so he says "Comair your speed is blah blah faster than everyone else, slow to 160". Comair Captain replies do you know what this jet (CRJ) stalls at, and Smiley, without skipping a beat says, "negative but your FO probably does". Classic.
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Heard that one many times, over many years, for many different types of airplanes.
It's not new.
 
Kritchlow said:
Heard that one many times, over many years, for many different types of airplanes.
It's not new.
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This is true, I was in the pattern behind Comair. Heard it with me own ears mate. :yesnod:
 
mscard88 said:
This is true, I was in the pattern behind Comair. Heard it with me own ears mate. :yesnod:
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No doubt... just saying it's an old cliche between pilot and controller.

There are others I can think of as well.
 
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