Pilot’s Erratic Behavior Forces Flight to be Diverted

And I was under the impression that the current FFDOs went through the same psych screening as the FAMs and other federal LEOs already, as part of their deputization process. If it's like what I went through, it's not that significant.
 
TMetzinger said:
And I was under the impression that the current FFDOs went through the same psych screening as the FAMs and other federal LEOs already, as part of their deputization process. If it's like what I went through, it's not that significant.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately not. Make application, a one week training program and good to go.
 
I'm shocked, SHOCKED to find that TSA has been misleading us: From their web site:
To be selected for Federal Flight Deck Officer (FFDO) training by TSA you must:
  • Successfully complete all selection assessments including any specified psychological, medical or physical ability requirements.
  • Be determined to meet all established standards by the Federal Air Marshal Service.
  • Be available to attend the FFDO training program in its entirety on your own time and at your own expense within one year from your acceptance in the program (the cost of the training and equipment are covered by TSA and the Federal Air Marshal Service; volunteers are responsible for their own travel, lodging, and daily expenses).
 
Rex Kramer said:
That article was terrible. The only incident remotely close to the JB one was the Air Canada incident where the FO went bonkers. Every other one was bad piloting (Colgan, which they got the facts wrong, icing had nothing to do with the CA stalling the plane), premeditated actions (Egypt Air suicide), or plain stupidy/dicking around (the Pinnacle FL410 stunt). The author is stretching trying to relate other incidents to this JetBlue situation.
Click to expand...

Not to mention that they included the Grand Canyon mid-air.....WTF?

And how the hell do you have an article about fruitcakes on the flight deck without mentioning Auburn Calloway???
 
TMetzinger said:
I'm shocked, SHOCKED to find that TSA has been misleading us: From their web site:
To be selected for Federal Flight Deck Officer (FFDO) training by TSA you must:
  • Successfully complete all selection assessments including any specified psychological, medical or physical ability requirements.
  • Be determined to meet all established standards by the Federal Air Marshal Service.
  • Be available to attend the FFDO training program in its entirety on your own time and at your own expense within one year from your acceptance in the program (the cost of the training and equipment are covered by TSA and the Federal Air Marshal Service; volunteers are responsible for their own travel, lodging, and daily expenses).
Click to expand...

Well yes, they're misleading, but they're not actually lying. Candidates have to meet "any specified psychological" requirements. TSA simply hasn't specified any.

For what it's worth, I suspect (admittedly with no direct knowledge) that most airlines do their own psych screening. I mean, I've applied for jobs carrying a lot less responsibility than being an airline pilot for which I had to take the MMPI, 16-PF, and/or various other psych tests.

I'll also own up to believing that these tests are basically a crock of manure, which said opinion I also hold of psychology as a science in general. Two of my degrees are in psychology, and I never got less than an "A" in a psych course. But the only ones that had the feel of true science were the neuropsychology courses. The rest were, in my opinion, just a collection of equally subjective speculations by theorists who agreed on very little -- except that each believed that all the others were wrong.

Believe it or not, however, that's not a bash against psychologists and other mental health practitioners. I've met a lot of them through volunteer work I've done, and I consider therapists as a group to be among the most noble, caring, and dedicated people you'll ever find. I also consider therapy and counseling to be extremely valuable. But I consider counseling to be an art, not a science.

The art of counseling is something which I hold in the highest possible regard. But there seems to be little or no difference in the effectiveness of counseling or clients' subjective satisfaction with their counselors based on the clinical orientation of the counselor, or whether that counselor happens to be a psychologist, social worker, clergyman, drug abuse counselor, marriage and family counselor, or some other sort of counselor. Whatever the case, I hold all good counselors and therapists in the highest regard.

But to call it "science" is laughable, in my opinion, as is the belief that psych testing has any sort of predictive accuracy. I believe this is especially true of the "projective" tests, whose interpretation is especially subjective and subject to examiner bias.

In my opinion, psych testing serves only two purposes. The first is strictly legal, as a means of demonstrating due diligence to mitigate liability for possible future bad acts. The second is that the testing process may very well identify candidates who are already bonkers at the time of testing.

In the case of airline pilots, I believe that the process of getting certificated at the ATP level, the extensive training and testing requirements, the competitive nature of getting an airline job, the nature of the work itself, and the constant interactions with others (other pilots, FAs, dispatchers, ramp agents, ATC, flight check officers, etc.) probably weed out the bonkered a lot more accurately than, say, describing ink blots.

Finally, psych tests would have zero predictive value in the case of organic conditions such as tumors and other lesions.

Nonetheless, I suspect that psych testing will soon be added to the requirements for FFDOs, and possibly for First-Class medicals in general, mainly for the sake of creating the appearance of due diligence.

-Rich
 
RJM62 said:
Well yes, they're misleading, but they're not actually lying. Candidates have to meet "any specified psychological" requirements. TSA simply hasn't specified any.

For what it's worth, I suspect (admittedly with no direct knowledge) that most airlines do their own psych screening. I mean, I've applied for jobs carrying a lot less responsibility than being an airline pilot for which I had to take the MMPI, 16-PF, and/or various other psych tests.

I'll also own up to believing that these tests are basically a crock of manure, which said opinion I also hold of psychology as a science in general. Two of my degrees are in psychology, and I never got less than an "A" in a psych course. But the only ones that had the feel of true science were the neuropsychology courses. The rest were, in my opinion, just a collection of equally subjective speculations by theorists who agreed on very little -- except that each believed that all the others were wrong.

Believe it or not, however, that's not a bash against psychologists and other mental health practitioners. I've met a lot of them through volunteer work I've done, and I consider therapists as a group to be among the most noble, caring, and dedicated people you'll ever find. I also consider therapy and counseling to be extremely valuable. But I consider counseling to be an art, not a science.

The art of counseling is something which I hold in the highest possible regard. But there seems to be little or no difference in the effectiveness of counseling or clients' subjective satisfaction with their counselors based on the clinical orientation of the counselor, or whether that counselor happens to be a psychologist, social worker, clergyman, drug abuse counselor, marriage and family counselor, or some other sort of counselor. Whatever the case, I hold all good counselors and therapists in the highest regard.

But to call it "science" is laughable, in my opinion, as is the belief that psych testing has any sort of predictive accuracy. I believe this is especially true of the "projective" tests, whose interpretation is especially subjective and subject to examiner bias.

In my opinion, psych testing serves only two purposes. The first is strictly legal, as a means of demonstrating due diligence to mitigate liability for possible future bad acts. The second is that the testing process may very well identify candidates who are already bonkers at the time of testing.

In the case of airline pilots, I believe that the process of getting certificated at the ATP level, the extensive training and testing requirements, the competitive nature of getting an airline job, the nature of the work itself, and the constant interactions with others (other pilots, FAs, dispatchers, ramp agents, ATC, flight check officers, etc.) probably weed out the bonkered a lot more accurately than, say, describing ink blots.

Finally, psych tests would have zero predictive value in the case of organic conditions such as tumors and other lesions.

Nonetheless, I suspect that psych testing will soon be added to the requirements for FFDOs, and possibly for First-Class medicals in general, mainly for the sake of creating the appearance of due diligence.

-Rich
Click to expand...

I am in complete agreement with your description of psychology, and where you draw the art/science line. And you state it very well.
 
I called my employee counseling line, and was told that they'd help me if I was suicidal, but that homicidal urges were not covered.

Apparently that's expected when you're a government contractor.
 
TMetzinger said:
And I was under the impression that the current FFDOs went through the same psych screening as the FAMs and other federal LEOs already, as part of their deputization process. If it's like what I went through, it's not that significant.
Click to expand...


If you want to be an FFDO you have to take a psych test and then sit down and have a talk with a shrink. It's fairly involved.




RJM62 said:
....

Nonetheless, I suspect that psych testing will soon be added to the requirements for FFDOs, and possibly for First-Class medicals in general, mainly for the sake of creating the appearance of due diligence.

-Rich
Click to expand...


It's always been a part of the program.
 
So the local news (this is DC, mind you) is noting that a "lot of pilots don't go to doctors for help" and turn to drinking and other solutions because the FAA checks medical and prescription records.

On the eve of a big lottery jackpot, anyone want to wager on what new regulations (as forced by congress) will be forthcoming?
 
I know this is over the top, but there are some things I can never entirely get past.

Sound pressure waves from our throats cannot hurt anyone. Try it. Boo, Bugga bugga.

But, if you make a loud noise with your vocal chords in certain environments, you could be charged with something.

It's what other people believe might be going through your mind after hearing those noises that gets you treated as a criminal, or as a mentally ill person. Really guilty of what, what is the illness, unexpected behavior?

A psycho babble person can collect insurance money for treating that "disease" if it lines correlates with other unexpected behaviors listed in a desk reference.

And how did we get here?.

And too, there was once a time when airline security consisted of asking passengers,"Has anyone asked you to bring anything with you?”
And to our surprise, that didn't work? Complete surrender to hijackers was also part of those policies.

Those are examples of total security incompetence. People knew that? Anybody remember Mary Schiavo (former Inspector General).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Schiavo

She used to publicly rail on airline security back in the day. I remember! Her comments were so bad for business (bad for the illusion of security) they drug her name through the mud big time to shut her up.

I think she did finally get caught smuggling something on a plane (with a TV news crew) trying to document her point.

But spending money on security just wasn't in the plan then. People were just starting to come to grips with de-regulation.

What if someone in the administration that hired her had just listened to her and acted responsibly?

We don't even look back with 20/20.
 
I do recall Mary Schiavo very well but she was so obsessed with security that her views became irrelevant. In my opinion she forgot about what flying public would tolerate. And yes, unfortunately mankind works this way that it takes certain events to trigger certain actions. No one would ever come up with shoe removal unless we had a shoe bomber first. There would be no Sarbanes-Oxley act before the Enron debacle, etc, etc. Also some of her statements bordered on idiocy - her statements for example about foreign students in the US flight schools, too bad she was not smart enough to make those statements months before 9/11. At the end I thought she was more about self-promotion, she was full of herself.
 
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Could multi - channel super fast communications be causing an ever worsening social hysteria? Maybe like over stimulated nervous system?

Just my ruminations. I'm goin dancing.
 
Some people just don't take to their alien implant well, no matter, they will be assimilated one way or another.
 
http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20001207X03335&ntsbno=MIA95FA107&akey=1

Just read this. Sounds really weird to me:confused:.

I wonder if Clayton's dad commited suicide! I mean, come on...how does an Instrument rated, multi engine pilot run one tank dry, notice the engine losing power and not switch tanks? :dunno:

I have neither IR nor ME....but I think that would be the first thing I did if I flew for more than three hours and then had an engine sputtering:yesnod:.
 
denverpilot said:
Perhaps.



The one I talked with didn't. Sorry if you take it so personally that he gave me bad information.



Awww.



"what you dream about"... oh that's rich... you sir are a funny guy. ;)



So let me get this straight... knowing FARs is overachieving but leaving the loaded firearm within arms reach is lazy. Got it. ;)



Wrong thread, but we can go there... :)



Nobody hates you.

Imagine PoA as a real-life gathering of pilots, controllers, and friends of wildly varying backgrounds who are standing around in a bar chatting about flying. (We even have a cool Doc hanging out.)

Some guy nobody knows, walks up and without introducing himself, starts into a story about some violation no one's ever heard of anyone ever getting violated over, so folks question it heavily.

The story/warning continues to get added to until now we all realize the captain who got violated was a complete ass to the controller and was just begging for a violation by his bad attitude. Yawn.

Meanwhile the original storyteller is getting angry at the questioners for no good reason and claiming all of them (who the group knows very well) haven't done any of the flying or controlling they have done.

Think anyone finds this guy as someone they "admire" and/or "want to be like"? Really?

More like, "Is this guy for real? Is he nuts?"

The whole point here is interaction. Meeting people. Maybe learning a little.

You say "there is zero benefit"... What exactly were you expecting? I'm seriously asking.

Was everyone to fall prostrate that a mighty Airline Captain graced us with his presence? ROFL. Now that sir, is a joke. And rhetorical. ;)

Hey. If I'm wrong about the firearms thing, I'll admit it. Ain't no skin off my nose.

I had bad info from someone in person vs. a guy who's apparently expecting respect on an Internet forum -- because he says he flies airliners.

Guess which one I'm going with 99% of the time. :)

You know how many guys say that on the Internet?

You seem to be lacking context of what happens on the Net. There are a few of us with our real names and real life stories out here and there's a whole bunch of fakes and wannabes and even a few who want to behave badly while hiding behind a keyboard thinking that makes them superior while they hide behind an avatar and a fake name.

Forgive us if we're a little leery of someone who shows up named "Captain" and proceeds to tell a 28 year ATC guy who has a real name that can be verified, that he doesn't know ATC. LOL!

No one here "hates" you. In fact, no one here even knows you. Many of us have met in person. Many of us have flown together.

A few have even found true love. (Not kidding.)

When a stranger walks up and says "respect me for I am a Captain" we roll our eyes a bit and wonder if they're for real -- or a 14-year-old in mommie's basement.

Then we wait to see what they say and contribute.

You started off weird is all.

But you do need to understand and comprehend that there are pilots who couldn't give a flying leap about airline flying in a forum as broad as this one.

Captain is just a job. I pay you $300 to get me somewhere my Skylane can't or my skills won't allow. You pay me to keep systems like your ticketing system running. Those are our jobs.

When you walk up onto "the front porch of aviation" as this Board touts itself to be, and rail about how you're an Airline Captain and we all should not ask questions or have opinions about your posts from our own (possibly incorrect) experiences, we think you're loony.

"Who IS this guy? He's weird."

"I dunno. You want another beer?"

Hang out. Get to know some folks.

My experiences and reasons for flying are really damn well published for all to see. My life is pretty good (well, I could use some more vacation time to go flying and enjoy my 182) and my "rock stars" are mainly my real life instructors. They've done a great job of keeping me from being dead, so they get free beer whenever I'm around.

You? You're an airline Captain. Okay cool. I know a few and consider them personal friends. One I consider family.

They know their GA stuff a hell of a lot better than you do. That's no skin off of your nose, I know. But it leaves me wondering why you don't care as much as they do.

Forgive me if I've met lots of Captains and FOs who don't say things like, "We don't use A/FDs." To be honest "Captain", you're the first who's EVER said that to me since 1991. All the airline pilots I know are consummate aviators with more than just airline flying on the brain. They fly GA stuff. They know the full craft of aviation, not just how they do their day jobs driving the bus.

I don't take it personally that you attack my experience level. I know very well where I stand in that regard.

Why do you take it personally that I know better Airline Captains than you? Let me rephrase that. I know better more well-rounded pilots who also happen to be Airline Captains.

There's nothing about that fact that you should be taking personally.

I'm just here to meet nice folks and maybe someday share a flight or a beer or a meal, or even a good old fashioned Internet debate with 'em.

What are you here for? Why is it letting you down?

Affirmation? Yay. You're an airline pilot.

Respect? Earn it.

Conversations? Try not to jump straight to questioning the experiences of others. You can attack me on that front all you like. I have a whopping 400 hours and enjoy my 182 immensely. I don't care if someone says I'm green. I am. There's also greener here. They're good kids.

You started off insulting a 28 year controller telling him he didn't know what he was talking about. I was actually laughing out loud at how deep you'd stepped in it on that one.

Chill out. Meet some folks. Enjoy yourself. It's the Internet. We all think we're right until someone shows us that we're not. It's completely normal. ;)

It's also completely normal not to hold anything a newbie says about anything in very high regard until they've been around a while.

I posted this one before... see the humor. Laugh a little! Sheesh man.

4b94241c-3f42-20c8.jpg
Click to expand...

Nate ftw
 
FTW = 'For Those Wondering'?

ummm...I don't get it. But I haven't gotten much lately.
 
Oh, 'For The Win'

Okay, I get it. Nate had a super post. Made me think a bit.

Maybe I should have come here and laid low. Learned the lay of the land. Worked my way in. Massaged ego's that needed massaging. Become respected by my online posts first before I laid out my experience.

Maybe I gave an apperance of 'I'm an "airline Captain" so what I say is gosspel' attitude. I don't know.

I don't want to re-hash last week. My only complaint on that reverse high speed thread was I know what I know. I did take it sort of personally that folks here were of the opinion that the facts that played out, agreed by both the incident Captain, and the incident FO and the companies Training Department were somehow misrepresented by me and that I'm a retard for not seeing what the masses here saw (even though I know all the principles and have spoken at length with them).

Anyway, I'm just a pilot flying the line. Opinionated..yes. Wrong? Sometimes. But I've been doing this for a very long time. If it's a requirement to read A/FD's to post here then I'm out. I honestly don't think ANY 121 pilot EVER reads an A/FD unless he's flying his own plane, but hey...it a big world out there.

So, maybe we can start over? Maybe we can't. I'll watch this thread with interest.
 
Captain said:
Oh, 'For The Win'

Okay, I get it. Nate had a super post. Made me think a bit.

Maybe I should have come here and laid low. Learned the lay of the land. Worked my way in. Massaged ego's that needed massaging. Become respected by my online posts first before I laid out my experience.
Click to expand...

Especially when you're gonna make yourself into an idiot in the first 3 posts. You set an all time record I think, and considering the early history of this board, that's quite an achievement, bravo.
 
Captain said:
Ya know the problem with this forum? People with no experience get to throw stones at those who do it.
Click to expand...

You know what's worse? People who show up expecting to be worshipped because they chose an important sounding username.

Anyway. To those that hate me..you win. Im out. I don't need this headache. There is zero benefit here...thanks for that.
Click to expand...

I really hope you stand by that statement.
 
For Captain, POA is actually a pretty nice place.

If you really don't think you can fit in here, I might suggest you try Flightinfo.com.....or perhaps airliners.net
 
Henning said:
Especially when you're gonna make yourself into an idiot in the first 3 posts. You set an all time record I think, and considering the early history of this board, that's quite an achievement, bravo.
Click to expand...

For Captain... You also have to realize Henning is our official Pot Stirrer lately. Haha

:stirpot:
 
Where I come from a 'Pot Stirrer' is code for 'jerk'.
 
Captain said:
Where I come from a 'Pot Stirrer' is code for 'jerk'.
Click to expand...

Where I come from, "jerk" is a tasty kind of food you can find in Jamaican restaurants. Very nice, if you're into spicy foods.

-Rich
 
I have had "captain" on ignore for about a hundred posts. I was abotu to let fly but restrained myself.

Is it safe to unignore, now?
 
No, you can 'un-ignore'. I'm a nice guy. If someone tells me my kids name is Steve and I know it's not then I'm going to say so. (that's the reverse thread)

I don't know everything. I'm all for learning and my job isn't to teach anyone here anything. But don't tell me my kids name is Steve...it isn't. We'll get along great.
 
bbchien said:
I have had "captain" on ignore for about a hundred posts. I was abotu to let fly but restrained myself.

Is it safe to unignore, now?
Click to expand...

He's actually showing some humility now!
 
Captain said:
Where I come from a 'Pot Stirrer' is code for 'jerk'.
Click to expand...

A lot of people have strong opinions around here. Some of them are what you might call "original thinkers." We argue a lot. Sometimes the arguments are very educational. There's a very wide range of experience levels here. We have some real characters here. I've gotten used to them.
 
Palmpilot said:
A lot of people have strong opinions around here. Some of them are what you might call "original thinkers." We argue a lot. Sometimes the arguments are very educational. There's a very wide range of experience levels here. We have some real characters here. I've gotten used to them.
Click to expand...

I DISAGREE!

I don't know why, but it's mandatory... I think. ;)
 
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