Penalty for flying without certificate?

Jeanie

Jeanie

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Jeanie
There is a guy here who flies a Cessna 150 without a certificate... Not only solo but with passengers. If he gets turned in/ratted out/reported to the FSDO what recourse do they have. He is the kind of guy who won't care if he gets a mean letter and since he doesn't have a certificate then what can he lose?

And, other than not having been tested he's a pretty good pilot with apparently a lot of hours in various cessnas

PS: I'm sure glad my name isn't in his log book!
 
ClimbnSink said:
Myob. For the nanny ******* this is not your business.
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If he's flying a passenger who isn't aware then, yes, it is your business. In fact if he's flying ANY passengers it is.

I don't have an issue at all with people flying SOLO who have lost their medical or who are otherwise non-compliant. But once you take off with someone else in the plane (a non-pilot), your ass is mine.
 
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To report it or not report it is not my question. I need to know if it's reported what would the penalties be to him.
 
Jeanie said:
To report it or not report it is not my question. I need to know if it's reported what would the penalties be to him.
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Jeanie

Do you know, for an absolute certainty, that this person is not licensed?

Think about it...
 
She poses an interesting question. Hopefully she won't mind if I rephrase, because I'd like an answer too.

If someone pilots an aircraft solo and/or with pax, and that person doesn't have a PPL, if caught by authorities, what charges, if any, can be levied against him/her and by whom?
 
SCCutler said:
Jeanie

Do you know, for an absolute certainty, that this person is not licensed?

Think about it...
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Absolutely I know it or I wouldn't have been discussing it. I'm careful about this sort of thing Spike.
 
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timwinters said:
If he's flying a passenger who isn't aware then, yes, it is your business. In fact if he's flying ANY passengers it is.

I don't have an issue at all with people flying SOLO who have lost their medical or who are otherwise non-compliant. But once you take off with someone else in the plane (a non-pilot), your ass is mine.
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I don't have a problem with folks who drive without a license and don't carry auto insurance, either... until one of them hits me.

From how I read Jeanie's post, it doesn't sound like this is a case of someone who lost his medical, but rather someone who never bothered to test for a pilot certificate. He may be a good stick, but that doesn't mean he knows the regulations, and even if he does, he obviously doesn't provide them much respect. Part of what keeps flying safe for everyone is that we all have an obligation to know and practice a basic respect for the regulations, and therefore exhibit consistent and expected behavior toward those with whom we share the air.

Likewise, passengers have a reasonable expectation that the pilot of an aircraft is properly qualified. Someone who does not hold a pilot certificate appropriate for the aircraft and type of operation being conducted is not properly qualified. If there is an accident, who is going to pay the bills? I'll go out on a limb and speculate that someone who flies without a pilot certificate is also flying without appropriate insurance, and likely has little to no recoverable assets in the event of a liability.


JKG
 
JGoodish said:
I don't have a problem with folks who drive without a license and don't carry auto insurance, either... until one of them hits me.

From how I read Jeanie's post, it doesn't sound like this is a case of someone who lost his medical, but rather someone who never bothered to test for a pilot certificate. He may be a good stick, but that doesn't mean he knows the regulations, and even if he does, he obviously doesn't provide them much respect. Part of what keeps flying safe for everyone is that we all have an obligation to know and practice a basic respect for the regulations, and therefore exhibit consistent and expected behavior toward those with whom we share the air.

Likewise, passengers have a reasonable expectation that the pilot of an aircraft is properly qualified. Someone who does not hold a pilot certificate appropriate for the aircraft and type of operation being conducted is not properly qualified. If there is an accident, who is going to pay the bills? I'll go out on a limb and speculate that someone who flies without a pilot certificate is also flying without appropriate insurance, and likely has little to no recoverable assets in the event of a liability.


JKG
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There is no appropriate insurance. Insurance isn't required simple as that. Making rules up is worse then breaking existing ones.
 
I think the prior comment was intended to be "nanny britches," at least that is what I thought, if only because I have heard that term numerous times before and never the other.

Could be wrong; hope I am right.
 
There is not much you can do except hint the local flying school or FSDO. To press any charges the offender has to be caught in the act. This is normally done during a ramp check after he lands. That is how many with expired medicals are caught. Two months ago I was ramp check by the CBP (Customs Border Patrol) helicopter at TJMZ after a direct flight from KFXE. The flight was perfectly legal but unusual for someone from Florida to come to an airport with no ground facilities (not even a windsock). They ask for pilot certificate, medical and drivers license. They check everything on an iPad for validity. They were cordial and friendly but maybe disappointed they could not find anything more than an old guy with a bunch of prescription pills and a full pee bottle.

José
 
ClimbnSink said:
Myob. For the nanny ******* this is not your business.
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Why would I mind my own business if I have to share the sky with that person? It's not just that person who is endangering himself. It's his/her passengers, people below, people in the sky.
 
No my yob, mon.

Meanee said:
Why would I mind my own business if I have to share the sky with that person? It's not just that person who is endangering himself. It's his/her passengers, people below, people in the sky.
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ClimbnSink said:
Myob. For the nanny ******* this is not your business.
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::yeahthat:

I was at a flyin n breakfast a couple of years ago sitting at a table of 12 pilots. Only 1/2 had PPL's. In NE the wide open spaces, flying off their own farms is their business, none of mine.
 
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Jeanie, this is one where I'd not be comfortable "ratting out" if I hadn't first partiicipated in an organized the "intervention" with at least five local pilots and a bit o' a videotaped confrontation. The reason will become apparent further down this "essay".

If the guy fails the warning, it's video video video until he roasts.

Say his uninsured arse wipes out your aircraft on the ramp...and you rates go up because of course, the ins co. cannot collect from him. How're you gonna feel? It IS your business.

Now worse, say he kills a passenger and he is incapacitatied. Who's going to take care of pax's dependents? How do we all feel then?

So now let's say the intervention has been done, and he keeps flying but obtains licensure. Do you think he's gonna buy insurance? Hardly. So the focus of the "intervention" is for him to realize just what he's doing to the unsuspecting pax, to his own estate. If he doesn't get these two items, it doesn't matter what happens or does not, either from the pilots or from the FAA. The outcome is the same.
 
bbchien said:
Now worse, say he kills a passenger and he is incapacitatied. Who's going to take care of pax's dependents? How do we all feel then?
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How is this different from a certificated but uninsured pilot? The rest of arguments may be ok, but the quoted one is bunk, my critical thinking says. It's lack of informed consent that's the problem here, not certification itself.
 
ClimbnSink said:
There is no appropriate insurance. Insurance isn't required simple as that. Making rules up is worse then breaking existing ones.
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Who's making up rules? Where did I say that insurance was required? I didn't.

The reality, however, is that if you're a passenger of someone without insurance (and, in that case, likely little to no recoverable assets), there's nothing to go after to pay your medical bills or, worst case, funeral expenses. What happens if you, as a properly licensed pilot, are in an accident or incident caused by the pilot in question? You're on your own. Insurance isn't necessarily a reason not to fly with a particular pilot, but a pilot's blatant disregard for regulations and safety of flight certainly is; a pilot who is uninsured just adds to the risk for the unsuspecting passenger and fellow pilots.


JKG
 
Piloto said:
There is not much you can do except hint the local flying school or FSDO. To press any charges the offender has to be caught in the act. This is normally done during a ramp check after he lands. That is how many with expired medicals are caught. Two months ago I was ramp check by the CBP (Customs Border Patrol) helicopter at TJMZ after a direct flight from KFXE. The flight was perfectly legal but unusual for someone from Florida to come to an airport with no ground facilities (not even a windsock). They ask for pilot certificate, medical and drivers license. They check everything on an iPad for validity. They were cordial and friendly but maybe disappointed they could not find anything more than an old guy with a bunch of prescription pills and a full pee bottle.

José
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José,

I flew there yesterday.... They put the windsock back......... A ramp check in Mayaguez by CBP? Very unusual..... Was there for 3 hours and not a single plane was around.... Probably they were checking you from A555...
 
Do you feel the same way about drivers of autos and trucks?

timwinters said:
If he's flying a passenger who isn't aware then, yes, it is your business. In fact if he's flying ANY passengers it is.

I don't have an issue at all with people flying SOLO who have lost their medical or who are otherwise non-compliant. But once you take off with someone else in the plane (a non-pilot), your ass is mine.
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This is funny. You folks realize flying a C150 without insurance can be rational and is legal. Sissies.
 
ClimbnSink said:
This is funny. You folks realize flying a C150 without insurance can be rational and is legal. Sissies.
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It's certainly legal, and it may seem rational to the pilot flying, assuming that he has no conscience, questionable wisdom, and little to no assets at risk. It is a whole lot less less rational for those who may cross paths with him.


JKG
 
The thread had to do with consequences for flying without a certificate.

Not about having or not having insurance.

The first question has been answered....... Carry on
 
This is really close to "none of your business". If he hurts someone, it'll come out that he was not certificated, and insurance isn't required for anyone.

One can choose whether or not they wish to involve themselves in the insanity. Personally, I have enough going on to mess with insane people. A CFI, may want to engage. Tough call.

I wouldn't be quiet about it around the airport or anywhere, though. Name the person out loud, everywhere. They can't claim slander if they're not flying legally. Drive them out of the fraternity.
 
To answer the original question (may have been answered; I didn't wade through the insurance discussion);

One who flies without a pilot certificate is subject to possible criminal penalties. 49 U.S.C. §46306(b)(7). There are also civil penalties that can be assessed through an FAA enforcement action 49 U.S.C. §46301. Civil penalty enforcement actions are done by a process similar to certificate actions.
 
Can hardly wait until this guy crashes into a school full of kiddies, and the news critters breathlessly report how he didn't even had a license, and everyone knew and did nothing about it.

As usual, Bruce hits it right on the head.
 
Has there ever been a news story about an unlicensed pilot crashing into a school?
More rules are coming not because of rule breakers, rather because that is what 'crats do and we let them.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Who swore you in as a sky-sheriff?
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We ALL have a responsibility to protect innocent bystanders.

Said another way, we police ourselves, or we get policed. We must be responsible adults or our hobby gets prohibited. Is that REALLY where you want to go to protect some fiction that one's actions have no consequence to others?
 
MAKG1 said:
We ALL have a responsibility to protect innocent bystanders.

Said another way, we police ourselves, or we get policed. We must be responsible adults or our hobby gets prohibited. Is that REALLY where you want to go to protect some fiction that one's actions have no consequence to others?
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BS we will get policed to death regardless of our actions. It is the country we have built, go on and blame a few rogues if you must, when flying is outlawed only outlaws will fly.
 
Jeanie said:
To report it or not report it is not my question. I need to know if it's reported what would the penalties be to him.
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Report it. The penalties are irrelevent. In fact, the stricter the penalties, the more serious it can be. I believe it's a low class felony.

Failure to report it is a moral defect on your part. It is your problem one way or another.

If the guy is caught one day and it comes out that you knew, as you've admitted here, there could be consequences to you, depending on how much they want to push it.
 
ClimbnSink said:
BS we will get policed to death regardless of our actions. It is the country we have built, go on and blame a few rogues if you must, when flying is outlawed only outlaws will fly.
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So, your position is that you don't give a rat's behind about other people? Please do not fly anywhere near me. Better yet, don't fly until you learn to play with others.

Like it or not, your actions affect everyone around you. This is reality, not some Libertarian fantasy.
 
It has already been said that the pilot in question is a good stick, then it has also been asked, "what if he kills a passenger?", with the implication being that without a current certificate, he is more likely to do just that, than a properly certificated pilot.

So, a good stick, with years of experience is clearly much more dangerous to fly with than a any certificated pilot. How does that work? Does this mean that without a certificate, the pilot in question must not flip through the FARs now and then like most all of us certificated pilots do?

I think that this issue is more about anarchism than piloting. What if all of us decided to do the same thing? If a few of us do it, it's easy to control if they are caught, however, if everyone and anyone started doing it, then it would render our authorities into irrelevance. It would also take a whole lot of appeal out of flying around for a day in busy airspace, not knowing who's driving the approaching airplane.

-John
 
midlifeflyer said:
To answer the original question (may have been answered; I didn't wade through the insurance discussion);

One who flies without a pilot certificate is subject to possible criminal penalties. 49 U.S.C. §46306(b)(7). There are also civil penalties that can be assessed through an FAA enforcement action 49 U.S.C. §46301. Civil penalty enforcement actions are done by a process similar to certificate actions.
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I'm sure that it's fairly common knowledge that flying without a certificate involves some fairly draconian penalties. Why people are willing to risk a criminal conviction and civil penalties in this manner is beyond me.

That said, if someone wants to fly themselves over remote parts of Alaska or Montana, I could give a rat's ass whether they are certificated or not. Whether or not I feel obliged to get in the middle of a situation similar to the OP's is dependent on the circumstances. I think I would lean toward the Dr. Bruce approach, if so.

BTW, you THINK that if it is such common knowledge that a certain person is flying without a certificate, it would eventually filter back to the local FSDO in one form or another anyway.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Ohh another fraidycat sky cop.
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Wow, do you think entirely by testosterone?

Or are you just that careless about others?

There are inherent dangers to flying. And you seem to be exhibiting at least two of the classic dangerous attitudes: antiauthority and invulnerability.

You should not be flying until you understand ADM.

If that makes me a "fraidycat" in your eyes, we need more of them, not less. If I really were afraid of flying, I wouldn't be flying. Kinda obvious, isn't it?
 
This sort of namecalling and pontificating is why POA is nearly useless to me. The lady asked what the penalties were. Simple as that. We don't know what her situation is or her relationship with the pilot is.

Personally, I assume she's got a good head and is trying to fix the situation the best way possible. And leave it at that.
 
Jeanie said:
There is a guy here who flies a Cessna 150 without a certificate... Not only solo but with passengers. If he gets turned in/ratted out/reported to the FSDO what recourse do they have. He is the kind of guy who won't care if he gets a mean letter and since he doesn't have a certificate then what can he lose?
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How the FAA will deal with this depends on his attitude when caught. Their initial actions could range anywhere from telling him he will get certified and play by the rules in the future (and that they will be watching him), to hitting him with a "civil penalty" of around $2000 (based on the only two NTSB cases I could find on point). If he continues to fly illegally after that, they can get a restraining order in Federal court against him flying (along with more and larger monetary penalties). If he disobeys that order, he can be jailed for contempt of court until he convinces the Federal judge he won't do it again.

And as mentioned above, there's also the possibility of criminal charges, but I've never heard of that happening the first time the Feds catch someone at this (unless they stole the plane). What state authorities might do where there's a law like that for Texas cited above is anybody's guess.

As for the morality issues, "I'm a flight instructor, Jim, not a rabbi."
 
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ClimbnSink said:
Has there ever been a news story about an unlicensed pilot crashing into a school?
More rules are coming not because of rule breakers, rather because that is what 'crats do and we let them.
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One aircraft I looked at had been ground looped at a fly-in by an uncertificated pilot - does that count?

Looking as best as I could at the aircraft history and checking it against the guy who owned it - the guy bought the airplane, flew it for a couple years, someone without a certificate ground looped it at a public venue. Made it as an incident / accident in the NTSB data base. And the owners certificate date in the FAA data base is for about a year after the ground loop. Draw your own conclusions, but I suspect the FAA got on him to get certificated.

I didn't buy that one, but for reasons unrelated to the above.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I'm sure that it's fairly common knowledge that flying without a certificate involves some fairly draconian penalties. Why people are willing to risk a criminal conviction and civil penalties in this manner is beyond me.
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I used to practice criminal law. Street crime, drugs, white collar. Not one of my clients ever thought he's get caught (not even the repeat offenders who had plenty of evidence to the contrary).
 
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