Part 91 ferry

Levijohnson

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Levijohnson
I am a CFI and a friend is buying an airplane 2000 miles away. I am going to be coming along but he cannot be insured until he has 25 hours in make/model. I know the most we can do is 8 hours instruction in a 24 hour period. Is it still legal for me to ferry the plane and not give instruction pass the 8 hours with him onboard?

For example: Can we fly 10 hours, I'll give him 8 hours of instruction and then the 2 hours I'll just act as PIC and land for the day? I don't want it to be consider charter flight. It is part 91 and the airplane will be in his name.

Thanks,

Levi
 
Are you being paid for the 2 hours? If so, then it's a commercial operation (being paid to fly, not to teach) and you'll need a 2nd Class medical.
If not, it seems to me you can volunteer to be someone else's PIC as much as you want.
 
Are you being paid for the 2 hours? If so, then it's a commercial operation (being paid to fly, not to teach) and you'll need a 2nd Class medical.
If not, it seems to me you can volunteer to be someone else's PIC as much as you want.
Unfortunately, the FAA would disagree. Without instructing or using commercial privileges, he'd have to pay for half the expenses of those 2 hours of flight.

But using commercial privileges does not make the flight charter. You can still do that under part 91.
 
^^^ Right.
What Salty said.

(ref. not enough coffee)
 
Could not the owner of the airplane generously pay for the whole thing, and let his friend fly the airplane for those two hours? Seems to me it would only be a problem if the owner didn’t pay his share (assuming commercial privileges weren’t exercised).
 
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Could not the owner of the airplane generously pay for the whole thing, and let his friend fly the airplane for those two hours? Seems to me it would only be a problem if the owner didn’t pay his share (assuming commercial privileges weren’t exercised).
The Faa considers loggable hours as compensation, so, no, you can’t do it without being commercial and remain within Faa guidelines.
 
The Faa considers loggable hours as compensation, so, no, you can’t do it without being commercial and remain within Faa guidelines.
It's not loggable hours, it's logged hours. There's an interpretation letter where they say that the problem of free flight time being considered compensation can be avoided by not logging the hours.

(See attachment, second page, third full paragraph, last sentence.)
 

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  • Harrington - (1997) legal interpretation.pdf
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I am a CFI and a friend is buying an airplane 2000 miles away. I am going to be coming along but he cannot be insured until he has 25 hours in make/model. I know the most we can do is 8 hours instruction in a 24 hour period. Is it still legal for me to ferry the plane and not give instruction pass the 8 hours with him onboard?

For example: Can we fly 10 hours, I'll give him 8 hours of instruction and then the 2 hours I'll just act as PIC and land for the day? I don't want it to be consider charter flight. It is part 91 and the airplane will be in his name.

Thanks,

Levi

I don't believe a pilot is allowed to give 8 hours of instruction and then another 8 hours of commercial operation within the same 24 hour window.
 
I don't believe a pilot is allowed to give 8 hours of instruction and then another 8 hours of commercial operation within the same 24 hour window.
Why not? The only restriction is the 8 hours of instruction in a 24 hour period. There’s nothing in the regs that says you can’t do the 8 hours of instruction then go ferry a plane for another 8 hours. Straight Part 91, there are no rest or duty limitations.
 
Why not? The only restriction is the 8 hours of instruction in a 24 hour period. There’s nothing in the regs that says you can’t do the 8 hours of instruction then go ferry a plane for another 8 hours. Straight Part 91, there are no rest or duty limitations.

I'm not a CFI, so I was unaware of these limitations. Can someone provide a CFR citation?
 
@Levijohnson as long as your customer doesn’t log more than 8 hours of dual received you can fly as much per day as you deem to be safe. With the aircraft in his name and his butt on board it would be mighty hard for even the most ignorant inspector to claim you were a charter operation.

Edit: for the pedants on here. Your customer can log more than 8 hours of dual but it would require more than one instructor. You can only do 8 per 24.
 
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I'm not a CFI, so I was unaware of these limitations. Can someone provide a CFR citation?
§ 61.195 Flight instructor limitations and qualifications.
A person who holds a flight instructor certificate is subject to the following limitations:

(a) Hours of training. In any 24-consecutive-hour period, a flight instructor may not conduct more than 8 hours of flight training.

I’ve hit the 8 hour limit a few times but was also able to do part 91 flights in the Cirrus the same day because the 8 in 24 limitation is only for instructing. I think the most flight time I did in one day was 11 hours. Looking back, it probably wasn’t the best idea because I was exhausted at the end of the day.
 
I don't believe a pilot is allowed to give 8 hours of instruction and then another 8 hours of commercial operation within the same 24 hour window.
as @jordane93 indicated, no problems there for flying Part 91.

Part 135 & 121 have flight time limits for flight time in a 24-hour period that applies ANY commercial flying prior to the 121/135 flight, including instruction, but you can still fly 8 hours or more for fun right before you go to work.
 
Why not? The only restriction is the 8 hours of instruction in a 24 hour period. There’s nothing in the regs that says you can’t do the 8 hours of instruction then go ferry a plane for another 8 hours. Straight Part 91, there are no rest or duty limitations.

I thought there was an 8 hour limitation on commercial ops. I guess that is only for 135/121 and not for Part 91.
 
I thought there was an 8 hour limitation on commercial ops. I guess that is only for 135/121 and not for Part 91.
Instruction is not a commercial op
 
An airplane owner is free to hire a commercial pilot to fly his plane for him under part 91.
 
I thought there was an 8 hour limitation on commercial ops. I guess that is only for 135/121 and not for Part 91.
Nope. There’s guys that do crop dusting, aerial survey, banner towing, etc for more than 8 hours. Part 91 is almost a free for all.
 
Instruction is not a commercial op
But it does fall under the umbrella of “all commercial flying” for the purposes of Part 135 flight time limitations if you’re getting paid to instruct. On the other hand, if I’m teaching my kid to fly, it doesn’t.

Of course, comm radios are considered “flight controls” under 135. But then flaps and speed brakes aren’t considered flight controls for currency purposes.
 
But it does fall under the umbrella of “all commercial flying” for the purposes of Part 135 flight time limitations if you’re getting paid to instruct. On the other hand, if I’m teaching my kid to fly, it doesn’t.

Of course, comm radios are considered “flight controls” under 135. But then flaps and speed brakes aren’t considered flight controls for currency purposes.
What does part 135 have to do with the question?
 
Well at least everyone agrees 91 is what applies.
Well since it's is one of the 119.1(e) list of commercial operations which do not require an operating certificate (which I'm thinking was a question on every commercial checkride ever given since the list existed), I guess that's a good thing :)
 
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