Part 121 time and Part 91 Flight Instruction

Greg Bockelman

Greg Bockelman

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Greg Bockelman
I have done my research and to be honest, I am a little confused.

How does Flight Instructing under Part 91 impact the 1000 hour flight time limit for part 121? Does flight instruction under part 91 count as commercial flying, therefore affecting the hours I can fly under part 121?

How about how it relates to rest time? In other words, the 24 hours off in 7 days?

References would be good.

I know what I always thought, but I am not sure what I always thought is true.
 
My understanding, Greg (and this is only from reading and interpreting the reg), is that instruction time != flight time.

You probably didn't want my answer though :D
 
Greg Bockelman said:
I have done my research and to be honest, I am a little confused.

How does Flight Instructing under Part 91 impact the 1000 hour flight time limit for part 121? Does flight instruction under part 91 count as commercial flying, therefore affecting the hours I can fly under part 121?

How about how it relates to rest time? In other words, the 24 hours off in 7 days?

References would be good.

I know what I always thought, but I am not sure what I always thought is true.
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It counts against to the best of my knowledge.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Does flight instruction under part 91 count as commercial flying, therefore affecting the hours I can fly under part 121?
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Only if you get paid, as I understand it. BTW, I've heard that some air carriers have company restrictions on this beyond those in the FAR's, so you might want to ask United first.
 
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I have no citation for this, but I know CJC forbids "any outside, unapproved commercial flying, to include flight instruction, pilot service, and [something else]. Should a pilot participate in such an activity (s)he must notify crew scheduling immediately with the date, time, and hours flown." I'd have to assume, based on their strongly worded warning, that there's something somewhere causing it to count against how they can use and abuse us.
 
SkyHog said:
My understanding, Greg (and this is only from reading and interpreting the reg), is that instruction time != flight time.

You probably didn't want my answer though :D
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Well yeah, Nick. But the question is how does that interact with the part 121 flight time regulations.

Private flying does not count towards the totals and that is flight time also.
 
OK, a reading from the bible. In other words the FAR's:

§ 121.481 Flight time limitations: One or two pilot crews.
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(a) through (d) don't really apply.

(e) No pilot may fly as a member of a crew more than 100 hours during any one calendar month.

(f) No pilot may fly as a member of a crew more than 1,000 hours during any 12-calendar-month period.

Note the reg only mentions the "as a member of a crew" with regard to the 100 and 1,000 hour limit. It does NOT say anything about other commercial operations. Hence my confusion. My conventional understanding is that the outside commercial flying counts against the totals, but a literal reading of this particular regulation, and the others that are related, seem to indicate otherwise. There must be another reg somewhere that addresses this in more detail, but I can't find it.
 
Teller1900 said:
Lets pretend I'm curious but don't have my FAR/FC sitting next to me...what's it say?
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§ 121.471 Flight time limitations and rest requirements: All flight crewmembers.
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(a) No certificate holder conducting domestic operations may schedule any flight crewmember and no flight crewmember may accept an assignment for flight time in scheduled air transportation or in other commercial flying if that crewmember's total flight time in all commercial flying will exceed—

(1) 1,000 hours in any calendar year;

(2) 100 hours in any calendar month;

(3) 30 hours in any 7 consecutive days;

(4) 8 hours between required rest periods.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
§ 121.471 Flight time limitations and rest requirements: All flight crewmembers.
top

(a) No certificate holder conducting domestic operations may schedule any flight crewmember and no flight crewmember may accept an assignment for flight time in scheduled air transportation or in other commercial flying if that crewmember's total flight time in all commercial flying will exceed—

(1) 1,000 hours in any calendar year;

(2) 100 hours in any calendar month;

(3) 30 hours in any 7 consecutive days;

(4) 8 hours between required rest periods.
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Bingo.


Now here's one for you...for us in the Beech, our limits are 1,200/120/34/8, but the Saab has the limits you mentioned above. Why do we "get" to fly more?
 
You are operating under part 135 rules. 19 seats. The Saab is something like 30 seats and is required to operate under 121 rules.
 
As I said above, I think the critical issue is the money -- if you're getting paid to be in an airplane, it's "commercial flying," whether you're PIC, SIC, FE, or CFI. I see no reason you can't instruct for free without triggering 121.471, and I don't think either the FAA or United Airlines can tie either a steak dinner at Shula's or Dierdorf & Hart's, or a bottle of single malt whisky (any of the above being about the same sales price as one hour of my time as an instructor) to the performance of flight duties earlier that day.
 
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Ron Levy said:
As I said above, I think the critical issue is the money -- if you're getting paid to be in an airplane, it's "commercial flying," whether you're PIC, SIC, FE, or CFI. I see no reason you can't instruct for free without triggering 121.471, and I don't think either the FAA or United Airlines can tie either a steak dinner or a bottle of single malt whisky to the performance of flight duties earlier that day.
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That is very true, Ron. But I was looking at other options. Not that I was looking seriously. :)
 
Ron Levy said:
a steak dinner at Shula's or Dierdorf & Hart's, or a bottle of single malt whisky (any of the above being about the same sales price as one hour of my time as an instructor)
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yep i think i need to stop charging cash for instruction

the glider DE here used to charge a bottle of Bombay Gin for a checkride. Made for some interesting conversations for the students who were under 21.

"Mom, I need you to go buy me a bottle of Gin"
 
Teller1900 said:
Nahh, we opperate under 121.
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I said 135 RULES. Here is the reg if your question was serious.

§ 121.480 Applicability.
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This subpart prescribes flight time limitations and rest requirements for flag operations, except that certificate holders conducting operations with airplanes having a passenger seat configuration of 30 seats or fewer, excluding each crewmember seat, and a payload capacity of 7,500 pounds or less, may comply with the applicable requirements of §§135.261 through 135.273 of this chapter.

And for reference:

§ 135.265 Flight time limitations and rest requirements: Scheduled operations.
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(a) No certificate holder may schedule any flight crewmember, and no flight crewmember may accept an assignment, for flight time in scheduled operations or in other commercial flying if that crewmember's total flight time in all commercial flying will exceed—

(1) 1,200 hours in any calendar year.

(2) 120 hours in any calendar month.

(3) 34 hours in any 7 consecutive days.

(4) 8 hours during any 24 consecutive hours for a flight crew consisting of one pilot.

(5) 8 hours between required rest periods for a flight crew consisting of two pilots qualified under this part for the operation being conducted.
 
Teller1900 said:
Bingo.


Now here's one for you...for us in the Beech, our limits are 1,200/120/34/8, but the Saab has the limits you mentioned above. Why do we "get" to fly more?
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Pt 135 vs Pt 121, it's harder to figure 135 duty times as well. It's because you don't get to kill as many people(135 being limited to 19 seats). The FAA regulates everything on how many people you get to kill. Ultralight? You kill just yourself, they don't care at all, no license, no medical, have fun and off yourself.
 
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Greg Bockelman said:
I said 135 RULES. Here is the reg if your question was serious.

§ 121.480 Applicability.
top

This subpart prescribes flight time limitations and rest requirements for flag operations, except that certificate holders conducting operations with airplanes having a passenger seat configuration of 30 seats or fewer, excluding each crewmember seat, and a payload capacity of 7,500 pounds or less, may comply with the applicable requirements of §§135.261 through 135.273 of this chapter.

And for reference:

§ 135.265 Flight time limitations and rest requirements: Scheduled operations.
top

(a) No certificate holder may schedule any flight crewmember, and no flight crewmember may accept an assignment, for flight time in scheduled operations or in other commercial flying if that crewmember's total flight time in all commercial flying will exceed—

(1) 1,200 hours in any calendar year.

(2) 120 hours in any calendar month.

(3) 34 hours in any 7 consecutive days.

(4) 8 hours during any 24 consecutive hours for a flight crew consisting of one pilot.

(5) 8 hours between required rest periods for a flight crew consisting of two pilots qualified under this part for the operation being conducted.
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Indeed it was serious, and that's the answer I never could find. Our FOPPM/CFM references (but doesn't explain) 121.480 for duty times, but never explains that it cites 135 or that 135 rules are applicable to us, or that it's not applicable to the Beech. That makes a lot more sense now.
 
Ron Levy said:
As I said above, I think the critical issue is the money -- if you're getting paid to be in an airplane, it's "commercial flying," whether you're PIC, SIC, FE, or CFI. I see no reason you can't instruct for free without triggering 121.471, and I don't think either the FAA or United Airlines can tie either a steak dinner at Shula's or Dierdorf & Hart's, or a bottle of single malt whisky (any of the above being about the same sales price as one hour of my time as an instructor) to the performance of flight duties earlier that day.
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Just stumbled across this thread since it now pertains to me. Doesn't the Fretwell interpretation clarify that flight instruction, even for pay, doesn't constitute commercial flying since you're being paid to teach, not for flying?
 
LDJones said:
Just stumbled across this thread since it now pertains to me. Doesn't the Fretwell interpretation clarify that flight instruction, even for pay, doesn't constitute commercial flying since you're being paid to teach, not for flying?
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Not as it applies to duty times I don't believe, IIRC they were refering to medical grade issues. I would suggest you ask your management before you do any outside CFI work. Pretty much every airline pilot I know can't do any.
 
I'm wondering why Greg is even logging the time?
 
Henning said:
Not as it applies to duty times I don't believe, IIRC they were refering to medical grade issues. I would suggest you ask your management before you do any outside CFI work. Pretty much every airline pilot I know can't do any.
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Management has just officially stated Part 91 flying outside of their ops doesn't count against our 121 time limits.
 
LDJones said:
Management has just officially stated Part 91 flying outside of their ops doesn't count against our 121 time limits.
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There's a DPE who is also an airline pilot in my area. I don't it comes into conflict with his 121 flying.
 
However all the flying I do under Part 91, "flying for fun" counts as total time toward 121 for ATP correct? I may be missing something here.
 
Henning said:
Not as it applies to duty times I don't believe, IIRC they were refering to medical grade issues. I would suggest you ask your management before you do any outside CFI work. Pretty much every airline pilot I know can't do any.
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Henning is correct -- Fretwell is strictly limited to medical certificate issues. And even if management says it's OK, you might want to ask them to put that in writing with some FAA documentation, because as far as I can tell, 14 CFR 121.471 contains no such exceptions.
 
Ryanb said:
However all the flying I do under Part 91, "flying for fun" counts as total time toward 121 for ATP correct?
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Correct. The issue under discussion is only about flight time by Part 121 crewmembers outside their job counting against their daily/weekly/monthly/annual flight time limits in 121.471 and the like.
 
Ron Levy said:
Henning is correct -- Fretwell is strictly limited to medical certificate issues. And even if management says it's OK, you might want to ask them to put that in writing with some FAA documentation, because as far as I can tell, 14 CFR 121.471 contains no such exceptions.
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They've put it in writing via a company-wide memo.
 
Ryanb said:
However all the flying I do under Part 91, "flying for fun" counts as total time toward 121 for ATP correct? I may be missing something here.
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Unrelated. We're talking about 117 time limits for 121 pilots. All your flying counts for what you want it to count for.
 
Ron Levy said:
Henning is correct -- Fretwell is strictly limited to medical certificate issues. And even if management says it's OK, you might want to ask them to put that in writing with some FAA documentation, because as far as I can tell, 14 CFR 121.471 contains no such exceptions.
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121.471 specifically references "commercial flying". The dicta in Fretwell seems to deem flight instruction as other than "commercial flying" by excluding it from the medical requirements associated with commercial flying.
 
LDJones said:
Management has just officially stated Part 91 flying outside of their ops doesn't count against our 121 time limits.
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I would say you're good then. Company interpretation is the one I would use.
 
LDJones said:
121.471 specifically references "commercial flying". The dicta in Fretwell seems to deem flight instruction as other than "commercial flying" by excluding it from the medical requirements associated with commercial flying.
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Except that the Fretwell letter is explicitly limited to the medical certificate issues of 14 CFR 61.23. You can't extend it to Part 121 flight time limitations regulations without another letter from the FAA. So I'm wondering whether your company got that from the FAA and is just passing it on, or if they came up with that interpretation on their own. Either way, I'd like to see the reasoning.
 
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