panel upgrade vs tablet

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surgeon67

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surgeon67
I have a panel which has a 430w linked to an MX-20 (installed right before Garmin aquired), with chartview and WSI weather. It has served me extremely well, but the MFD is no longer reliable (screen issues mostly), and Garmin no longer supports/repairs the unit.
Replacing the panel display is looking costly, and given that technology advances at a rate that obsoletes expensive avionics (almost before they are installed it seems), I'm looking at going with a tablet option. This would save me the yearly WSI subscription as well as the Jeppesen chartview subscription for the MX-20, not to mention several thousand in installation, although I plan to add ADS-B next year to the panel when I do the IFR plane recert.

First: does anyone think that a tablet with foreflight/garmin is NOT an adequate replacement for IFR compared to what I had?

Second: I see plenty of (mostly dated) opinions regarding FF/GP, with a slight majority seeming to favor FF. Is FF sufficiently better (especially now that Jeppesen has teamed with FF) to justify an additional purchase of an iPad, given I already have an android tablet? Weather display and approach plates (preferably geo-referenced) are my main goals here
 
I'd vote ipad with FF, paired with an ADSB in/out Transponder comparable with FF for traffic and weather. And a good mount.


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I'm not sure I see how an MX20 or 200 would be better than an iPad, certainly not enough to justify costs.
 
gsengle said:
I'd vote ipad with FF, paired with an ADSB in/out Transponder comparable with FF for traffic and weather. And a good mount.


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Click to expand...
Great question
 
I had a 430w in my Cessna and Foreflight with a Stratus II was good enough for me. Prior to that, it was the 430 with a portable Garmin 396 with XM weather and paper charts/approach plates and that was fine as well.

Not sure why an expensive, panel mounted display would be any better.
 
Plus with the trend toward approval of experimental avionics for certified aircraft, an iPad as an interim (or permanent) solution until the prices go down would be my choice.

Cheers
 
Effectively mounting your Android/iPadtablet is critical for success! Where it is mounted, and what with, are vital for effective use of the tablet. It's really worth a lot of effort into where you're putting the tablet, what the angles are, what it might be blocking behind it or on the panel, can a co-pilot see it, is it secure, glare-free, avoiding heat buildup, etc., etc., etc. Really makes all the difference in the world.
 
I would love to upgrade my panel again to the latest glass options, but the ipad/foreflight system with weather and traffic in makes it hard to justify. I'll wait some more.
scNLw9Tm.jpg
 
surgeon67 said:
I have a panel which has a 430w linked to an MX-20 (installed right before Garmin aquired), with chartview and WSI weather. It has served me extremely well, but the MFD is no longer reliable (screen issues mostly), and Garmin no longer supports/repairs the unit.
Replacing the panel display is looking costly, and given that technology advances at a rate that obsoletes expensive avionics (almost before they are installed it seems), I'm looking at going with a tablet option. This would save me the yearly WSI subscription as well as the Jeppesen chartview subscription for the MX-20, not to mention several thousand in installation, although I plan to add ADS-B next year to the panel when I do the IFR plane recert.

First: does anyone think that a tablet with foreflight/garmin is NOT an adequate replacement for IFR compared to what I had?

Second: I see plenty of (mostly dated) opinions regarding FF/GP, with a slight majority seeming to favor FF. Is FF sufficiently better (especially now that Jeppesen has teamed with FF) to justify an additional purchase of an iPad, given I already have an android tablet? Weather display and approach plates (preferably geo-referenced) are my main goals here
Click to expand...
Maybe give FltPlan Go a try on the android tablet. It is just about equal to FF. The major exception is terrain elevation data. Of course that is available on the 430w so maybe not a major concern for you.
 
I wouldn't consider an iPad as a MFD replacement for serious IFR flight but for VFR and "light IFR" it should do the job. The main downsides (assuming you mount the iPad somehow) are the lack of sunlight readability, overheating concerns, lightning connectors falling out in turbulence, and the lack of connectivity to your panel mount GPS and other avionics. Operating a touchscreen in turbulence will be difficult as well and even more so given the small size of the typical "button" on an iPad running FF or GP.
 
gismo said:
I wouldn't consider an iPad as a MFD replacement for serious IFR flight but for VFR and "light IFR" it should do the job. The main downsides (assuming you mount the iPad somehow) are the lack of sunlight readability, overheating concerns, lightning connectors falling out in turbulence, and the lack of connectivity to your panel mount GPS and other avionics. Operating a touchscreen in turbulence will be difficult as well and even more so given the small size of the typical "button" on an iPad running FF or GP.
Click to expand...

It is illegal to use a portable tablet EFB as either a PFD or an MFD, especially in instrument flight. To use a tablet in this way it must be TSO'd (if certified aircraft) and permanently mounted in the panel and connected to the aircraft electrical system (none of them qualify).
 
citizen5000 said:
It is illegal to use a portable tablet EFB as either a PFD or an MFD, especially in instrument flight. To use a tablet in this way it must be TSO'd (if certified aircraft) and permanently mounted in the panel and connected to the aircraft electrical system (none of them qualify).
Click to expand...

Completely wrong...it is only illegal to use a tablet as primary source of navigation in this context. As long as you have a legal IFR navigation source you can use your iPad legally all day long in IFR as an aid to situational awareness.

He as a 430W...that is the legal nav source. It is not illegal to use an iPad for any and all information beyond that minimum requirement in IFR as the wording of your post suggests.
 
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Clark1961 said:
Maybe give FltPlan Go a try on the android tablet. It is just about equal to FF. The major exception is terrain elevation data. Of course that is available on the 430w so maybe not a major concern for you.
Click to expand...

I actually have a question here. I just used FltPlan to calculate a quick flight, and it's quite a bit longer than the whizwheel or other planner (iflightplanner.com)
coming up with 12 minutes for a 25nm on the whizwheel and iflightplanner.com flying a DA40 at 128kts GS.
FltPlan has it at like 17-19 when I enter the aircraft...and the fuel burn is crazy.
Is it something I'm doing, or is FltPlan not trustworthy?
Are they adding takeoff/taxi time??

KOWB->KEHR
9.5GPH

Winds Aloft FL040 ISA(+07) Comp FL020 ISA(+11) Comp - - -
Avg. Winds=> - 9 Headwind - - - -
FLT TIME==> 0:19(+00) 136TAS 0:17(-02) 132TAS
Fuel Burn==> 5.8 Gal. 5.5 Gal. - - -
 
Skyrys62 said:
I actually have a question here. I just used FltPlan to calculate a quick flight, and it's quite a bit longer than the whizwheel or other planner (iflightplanner.com)
coming up with 12 minutes for a 25nm on the whizwheel and iflightplanner.com flying a DA40 at 128kts GS.
FltPlan has it at like 17-19 when I enter the aircraft...and the fuel burn is crazy.
Is it something I'm doing, or is FltPlan not trustworthy?
Are they adding takeoff/taxi time??

KOWB->KEHR
9.5GPH

Winds Aloft FL040 ISA(+07) Comp FL020 ISA(+11) Comp - - -
Avg. Winds=> - 9 Headwind - - - -
FLT TIME==> 0:19(+00) 136TAS 0:17(-02) 132TAS
Fuel Burn==> 5.8 Gal. 5.5 Gal. - - -
Click to expand...
Did you happen to check the default numbers for the aircraft? The software can include taxi fuel along with climb and descent speeds and fuel burns.
 
Does any one know if Garmin is still upgrading the 330 to 330es? and if so will it be worth the upgrade?
 
^^^^ wow. way off topic but yes they'll do it and yes it is worth it for ADS-B Out only compliance
 
Dexter L gresham said:
Does any one know if Garmin is still upgrading the 330 to 330es? and if so will it be worth the upgrade?
Click to expand...

Yes. $1200 at last check.

I had a 430W and 330 so the ES upgrade was a no brainer for me. There are better options out there now if you are staring from scratch, but the ES upgrade may make sense depending on what you already have.
 
Skyrys62 said:
I didn't....haven't really looked into it. Will do though.
Click to expand...
The fuel burns should be very close to actual once it is setup. The flight planning portion has been around a long time and seemed to be popular with charter guys.

The fltplan go EFB stuff is newer and has matured slowly. It seems to me that they haven't caught up with FF, Wingx, Garmin but its close enough now and the price is right. The georeffed plates for free is a nice feature.
 
Shawn said:
Completely wrong...it is only illegal to use a tablet as primary source of navigation in this context. As long as you have a legal IFR navigation source you can use your iPad legally all day long in IFR as an aid to situational awareness.

He as a 430W...that is the legal nav source. It is not illegal to use an iPad for any and all information beyond that minimum requirement in IFR as the wording of your post suggests.
Click to expand...

Shawn, you are absolutely correct. HOWEVER, if the pilot is relying on information from the iPad INSTEAD of the certified source they he is in fact using it as primary navigation which would be ILLEGAL.
Think of this way, you bust the Class B airspace because you were watching your track on the iPad (which showed you outside Class B) when in fact the 430W showed you in the airspace.
 
Clark1961 said:
The fuel burns should be very close to actual once it is setup. The flight planning portion has been around a long time and seemed to be popular with charter guys.

The fltplan go EFB stuff is newer and has matured slowly. It seems to me that they haven't caught up with FF, Wingx, Garmin but its close enough now and the price is right. The georeffed plates for free is a nice feature.
Click to expand...

Thank yew Mr. Griswald.
 
So lemme get this straight. GTN installations are the best thing since sliced bread and GNS installations are for chumps because "touchscreen" aka potato. But the second some of us bottom feeders get crafty and arrive at the same destination with a tablet, a cigarette powered FIS-B puck and 14.69AMUs extra for hotels and prostitutes in our pocket compared to the guy with the f****g 120ktgs Dreamliner, and now touchscreen is all of a sudden blasphemy in "turbulence"? :rolleyes: LOL Roger copy.

Lenovo and 199.99 FTW.:D
 
As I mentioned in another thread, we did panel mount our tablet after removing a Loran and non-functional NDB. Just enough room at the top of the stack (left both Navcom's, DME, audio panel and xpdr). The mount is fixed but the tablet is removable.

So far my wife's instructor, my instructor, another instructor and two other pilots have all taken one look, really like it and have asked lots of questions. We can see it in bright light with the worst challenge so far being winter flight in clear skies and total snow cover. For that I force the brightness to about 90% and I believe we could get close to 3hrs on battery alone. We have never had it overheat and it has been pulling GPS just fine (although we use a GLO vis Bluetooth for faster more accurate update rate). Since it is rigidly mounted (no arm) it is probably as usable as any other touchscreen based device in a cockpit. I find during chop the touch screen issues are more about how small things are. Actually, our only real issue to date is that the screen saver kicks in during flight so I should probably figure that out setting.

I have used it on all 11 training flights so far. I pretty much start it up and don't look at it or interact with it at during training. From time to time my instructor will ask where we are. I always figure it out visually first but then he is like "Just look at the screen if you like". He likes the 5nm and 10nm rings and the 10 minute distance vector. The other day he was using it to demonstrate ground speed with our tail wind and he was using the GPS based altitude to compare to the Altimeter. The best one was two days ago, we saw rain in the distance and he assumed we had wx radar and I had a :( because we don't have ADS-B in yet. He also flies a King Air and a Cirrus so it would seem the tablet solution earned his approval given his access to the bigger toys. I would say for every 60min of flight I spend 1min total using the tablet. I wish we had full ADS-B in/out for more traffic awareness.

We are quite happy with it. Oh yeah, my wife and I have different tablets so we can each have the setup we like regarding apps, icons, tablet settings etc. And one can be the backup to the other if needed.
 
Shawn said:
Completely wrong...it is only illegal to use a tablet as primary source of navigation in this context.
Click to expand...

It is illegal to use a tablet (portable device) as a PFD or MFD or as a primary navigational source.
 
Cruiser said:
Shawn, you are absolutely correct. HOWEVER, if the pilot is relying on information from the iPad INSTEAD of the certified source they he is in fact using it as primary navigation which would be ILLEGAL.
Think of this way, you bust the Class B airspace because you were watching your track on the iPad (which showed you outside Class B) when in fact the 430W showed you in the airspace.
Click to expand...

I see what you are saying but I'm not sure that is a good illustrative example. We are talking about IFR navigation I believe, where airspace clearance is irrelevant.

I don't think ATC cares which magenta line you stare at more as long as the 'primary' one is complied with.
 
citizen5000 said:
It is illegal to use a tablet (portable device) as a PFD or MFD or as a primary navigational source.
Click to expand...

Again false. That's only true IFR. He isn't taking IFR.


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citizen5000 said:
It is illegal to use a tablet (portable device) as a PFD or MFD or as a primary navigational source.
Click to expand...

Where do you get this notion that it is illegal to utilize a tablet for IFR along with an approved Nav device? It is only illegal to use it AS your primary navigation source.

Please cite a reg...your statement that it can not be used as a PDF or MFD implies that to utilize the info displayed on a tablet is illegal while IFR. It is only illegal to navigate by as your primary nav. I can legally adjust my flight plan on my 430 all day long from information derived from Foreflight...as long as I am actually navigating the plane by the 430.

The notion that if you had your flight plan loaded in your 430 and synced with Foreflight then notice that you need to deviate due to weather displayed on you iPad would be illegal is absurd.
 
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citizen5000 said:
It is illegal to use a tablet (portable device) as a PFD or MFD or as a primary navigational source.
Click to expand...

Illegal to use as an MFD? No way!

I can fly 100% legally without my MFD. It is not required for VFR or IFR flight, according to my POH.

If I want to, I can use an ipad or even a Ouija board as an MFD, and fly an approach to minimums, and be totally legal. I just need to bring plates somehow.
 
Hi everyone.
The only legal use approved by FAA of portable devices is for static electronic charts / paper replacement, and only if it's approved / conforms as Class I. See AC 120-76C for details / definitions.
If any one finds something different post reference here.
Thank you.
 
NoHeat said:
I can fly 100% legally without my MFD. It is not required for VFR or IFR flight
Click to expand...

Minimum equipment required for VFR flight From MFD:
- Tachometer for each engine.
- Oil temp indicator for each engine
- Manifold pressure gauge for each altitude engine
- Temperature gauge for each liquid cooled engine
- Oil Pressure gauge for each engine

Minimum equipment required for IFR flight From MFD (ALL From VFR List Plus):
- Generator/alternator

You can't use a portable device, especially one that is not directly connected to the aircraft power supply as a PFD or MFD.
 
There is absolutely no issue with ded reckoning while VFR. You can enhance your ded reckoning any way you want. Sextant or iPhone gps, go for it....


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G-Man said:
Effectively mounting your Android/iPadtablet is critical for success! Where it is mounted, and what with, are vital for effective use of the tablet. It's really worth a lot of effort into where you're putting the tablet, what the angles are, what it might be blocking behind it or on the panel, can a co-pilot see it, is it secure, glare-free, avoiding heat buildup, etc., etc., etc. Really makes all the difference in the world.
Click to expand...

I've been using Avare on a smartphone for some time now for VFR navigation. To bring my Starduster home (1000+ miles), I used Avare on an 8" tablet on a custom made kneeboard. Sunlight readability wasn't an issue even in the open cockpit, though if there was glare I could just shift my leg slightly.
 
citizen5000 said:
Minimum equipment required for VFR flight From MFD:
- Tachometer for each engine.
- Oil temp indicator for each engine
- Manifold pressure gauge for each altitude engine
- Temperature gauge for each liquid cooled engine
- Oil Pressure gauge for each engine

Minimum equipment required for IFR flight From MFD (ALL From VFR List Plus):
- Generator/alternator

You can't use a portable device, especially one that is not directly connected to the aircraft power supply as a PFD or MFD.
Click to expand...

No one is advocating using an iPad to show what you're insinuating.

They're talking about using an iPad as a pseudo-MFD to display charts, routes, etc.....none of which are required equipment.
 
citizen5000 said:
Minimum equipment required for VFR flight From MFD:
- Tachometer for each engine.
- Oil temp indicator for each engine
- Manifold pressure gauge for each altitude engine
- Temperature gauge for each liquid cooled engine
- Oil Pressure gauge for each engine

Minimum equipment required for IFR flight From MFD (ALL From VFR List Plus):
- Generator/alternator
Click to expand...

I'm not sure why you are choosing to challenge me.

I wrote that my POH does not include the MFD in the list of required equipment for VFR or IFR flight; that is a fact, and there is nothing about that fact that conflicts with any FAA requirement.

Sure, my MFD provides data for the tach and other engine gauges you have listed, but for me all those indications are redundant as they are also displayed on my panel by analog gauges.


You can't use a portable device, especially one that is not directly connected to the aircraft power supply as a PFD or MFD.
Click to expand...

Since you are responding to me in particular, I will again point out that your blanket statement is mistaken.

Since my MFD is not required for flight, I can fly my plane without it. I can turn it off if I please. Likewise, I can cover it with monkeys held in place with duct tape, or spray paint it black, or smash its screen to bits, or replace it with whatever suits my fancy, whether that's an iPad or any other portable device, or, as I mentioned, even a Ouija board. I can do all of that and still legally fly an approach to minimums.
 
NoHeat said:
I'm not sure why you are choosing to challenge me.

I wrote that my POH does not include the MFD in the list of required equipment for VFR or IFR flight; that is a fact, and there is nothing about that fact that conflicts with any FAA requirement.

Sure, my MFD provides data for the tach and other engine gauges you have listed, but for me all those indications are redundant as they are also displayed on my panel by analog gauges.




Since you are responding to me in particular, I will again point out that your blanket statement is mistaken.

Since my MFD is not required for flight, I can fly my plane without it. I can turn it off if I please. Likewise, I can cover it with monkeys held in place with duct tape, or spray paint it black, or smash its screen to bits, or replace it with whatever suits my fancy, whether that's an iPad or any other portable device, or, as I mentioned, even a Ouija board. I can do all of that and still legally fly an approach to minimums.
Click to expand...

Don't feel bad, don't take it personally, Citizen5 is a font of misinformation generally...


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