Paint peeling off in sheets

Tom-D said:
Couple notes to add to your post.

Poly-Fiber process, must be brushed for the first coat to adhere to the ceconite.
they protect the fabric with a silver reflective coating, not a UV additive, like Airtech.
The old dope and cotton was applied using dope as a glue, Steve Whitman died because nothing chemically attaches to ceconite. You must encapsulate ceconite with a strong glue.
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Yep, no arguments there. The first coat specifically called "PolyBrush" because it is to be brushed on to encapsulate the weave and give everything else something to adhere to. "PolySpray" is the aluminum-based UV layer I mentioned. PolyTak is a polyester weave compatible glue.
 
technically speaking Poly brush et al aren't compatible with Ceconite. :)
 
They aren't compatible with the Ceconite STC. The fabric doesn't much really care. The Ceconite STC steps are to cover the fabric with a sealer which can either be the Randolph "blue" sealer or just some thinned non-tautening nitrate dope, brushed on. Then spray the approved butyrate dopes on.

All of these have manuals. I thought Consolidated had the PolyFiber and Stits online at one point but I can't find them now just tables of contents. The Aerothane is.
 
Polyfiber and Ceconite fabrics are identical and come off the same loom (as told by co-ower of Polyfiber John Goldenbaum). The only difference between them is the ID stamp, but that stamp is the difference between legal and not legal on certificated airplanes. Me? E-AB but I'm using Polyfiber fabric with the Polyfiber coatings through Aerothane per the manual. No reason not to. My last Cub was certified and had Ceconite, dacproofer, dope through white, and Imron red trim. I'd have done it again if I could find dacproofer. But all that's thread drift. I'm interested in the OP's issue.
 

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Stewartb said:
technically speaking Poly brush et al aren't compatible with Ceconite. :)
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Last I knew there was only 1 loom producing Dupont double knit Dacron. Poly-fiber certifies that as Ceconite under their trade name, in two weights and require it to be used in their process.
no such requirement in any other system, that is why other systems fabric is cheaper. (but not much)
The generic name for what you call "CECONITE" is "Dupont double knit Dacron Fabric" As I've said before it comes off the loom with a sizing in it.
Poly-Fiber product known as Poly-Brush can't be sprayed and penetrate the weave, IF it does not penetrate it will not adhere to the Ceconite, thus we have what the OP is suffering.
the simple cheap cure is to get a good quality duct tape and pull off every thing that isn't adhered and start there to refinish.
IF the fabric is contaminated and the new base coat can't be pushed thru the base fabric. remove it all and re-cover.
I have found that Airtechcoatings.com is a far better system than Poly -Fiber. It is easier to use and gives a better shine and lasts longer than Poly-Fiber. in the long run it is cheaper. 1 qt of their glue makes 5 its glue ready to use. there fabric primer is quicker to apply, quicker and easier to sand, fills the weave with less product. and any bra top coat can be applied.
Plus it is fire and chemical proof. when 100LL is allowed to form a stain, a rag wet with 100LL removes it. try that with Poly-Fiber. or any other system.
I've done extensive testing with glues, Poly-Fiber, Stewarts, and Airtech. all three glues applied as directed to bare wood, varnished wood, epoxied wood, bare steel, painted steel, and powder coated steel, bare aluminum, painted aluminum, and powder coated aluminum.
Using a 2" pinked edge tape gluing the same area of tape to the test (6 square inches) all 3 glues were pretty much equal until I got to the powder coated items. Poly -fiber peeled off very easy, Stewarts fail, but with difficulty, but under pressure it came off, Airtech the ceconite tape tore, the glue held. Poly-Fiber and Airtech were easy to remove with acetone, (or their thinner) but the Stewarts not so easy.
 
Stewartb said:
Polyfiber and Ceconite fabrics are identical and come off the same loom (as told by co-ower of Polyfiber John Goldenbaum). The only difference between them is the ID stamp, but that stamp is the difference between legal and not legal on certificated airplanes. Me? E-AB but I'm using Polyfiber fabric with the Polyfiber coatings through Aerothane per the manual. No reason not to. My last Cub was certified and had Ceconite, dacproofer, dope through white, and Imron red trim. I'd have done it again if I could find dacproofer. But all that's thread drift. I'm interested in the OP's issue.
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you go to a lot of trouble and expense for a lessor quality. and remember John is a salesman, and owns the product he sells
 
Staining is simple to remove from dope or polytone. Simpler yet on a cured urethane or polyurethane like Ranthane, Aerothane, Airteck, Superflight 7, or Stewarts.

Polyfiber and Ceconite fabric have different stamps. The FAA knows it and checks. There's a reason the first coats are different colors on different process STCs.
 
If I wanted lesser quality I'd hire you! ;)

If you prefer Airtech? Good for you. Other guys prefer other products for reasons that make sense to them. Choice is good.
 
SkyDog58 said:
As an A&P with no real fabric experience since A&P school many years ago, I find this thread very informative even with the usual posturing that goes on.
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I think the key to fabric is to read the directions that go with the coatings you plan to use. At least, that's what worked for me.
 
Tom-D said:
you go to a lot of trouble and expense for a lessor quality. and remember John is a salesman, and owns the product he sells
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remember all recovering of certified aircraft is a major repair and must adhere to the STC under which it was completed, so read John's answer with this in mind.
 
Stewartb said:
If I wanted lesser quality I'd hire you! ;)
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yeah OK, to each their own.
If you like a cover system that burns like a road flare, stains easy go for it.
 
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Stinson Model "O" done in AirTech.-- my Fairchild done in Airtech.
 

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As already stated, I'm using Stits and Aerothane. That's as good as it gets for fire and stain resistance. Long term durability in my home area is the best of any system I've seen as judged by a few hunting guide Cubs I know well. My plane, my choice. Why do you always resort to condescending comments so you can start arguments about crap that has nothing at all to do with the OP? Take a pill or something.
 
We did our V77 with the fiberglass cloth. I forget what they called it. It was a coarse weave of polyester. coated with dope.
 
....and it might be a good idea to follow the STC instructions.....too. :D
 
I have done fabric on several airplanes. YOU MUST READ THE MANUAL. It's that simple. Paint peeling off might be an unwashed surface, but it's much more likely that the first coat was sprayed instead of brushed, as the manuals emphatically tell you. Polyester fabrics will not wick the coating in like the cotton did; it has to be forced through the weave with a brush so that it encapsulates the fibers and stays put. It never really sticks to the fibers, just surrounds them. Spraying it on leaves it barely hanging onto the outsideof the fabric.
 
Stewartb said:
As already stated, I'm using Stits and Aerothane. That's as good as it gets for fire and stain resistance. Long term durability in my home area is the best of any system I've seen as judged by a few hunting guide Cubs I know well. My plane, my choice. .
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when you have never done a Airtech system, how do you know?
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
....and it might be a good idea to follow the STC instructions.....too. :D
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the STC requires that you follow the installation instructions given in their manual.
airtech instruction manual is the only one telling you to wash the fabric, and the only system that can be sprayed first coat and be completed with 4 coats of paint.
one has said that poly-fiber is as good as it gets for fire proof.. that's BS
 
Dan Thomas said:
I have done fabric on several airplanes. YOU MUST READ THE MANUAL. It's that simple. Paint peeling off might be an unwashed surface, but it's much more likely that the first coat was sprayed instead of brushed, as the manuals emphatically tell you. Polyester fabrics will not wick the coating in like the cotton did; it has to be forced through the weave with a brush so that it encapsulates the fibers and stays put. It never really sticks to the fibers, just surrounds them. Spraying it on leaves it barely hanging onto the outsideof the fabric.
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That is what I have found too.
 
Stewartb said:
Polyfiber and Ceconite fabrics are identical and come off the same loom (as told by co-ower of Polyfiber John Goldenbaum). The only difference between them is the ID stamp, but that stamp is the difference between legal and not legal on certificated airplanes. Me? E-AB but I'm using Polyfiber fabric with the Polyfiber coatings through Aerothane per the manual. No reason not to. My last Cub was certified and had Ceconite, dacproofer, dope through white, and Imron red trim. I'd have done it again if I could find dacproofer. But all that's thread drift. I'm interested in the OP's issue.
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By the time you were finished with that step, I'd be completed with Airtech. :)
 
Like I said, if you're on a certificated aircraft, you better be following either the airplane manufacturer (and if it's old enough it's not going to even cover polyester) or one of the STCs. Polyfiber and Ceconite have rules for their fabrics as I stated. Aerothane allows you to use any of the approved fabrics with theirs.
 
flyingron said:
Like I said, if you're on a certificated aircraft, you better be following either the airplane manufacturer (and if it's old enough it's not going to even cover polyester) or one of the STCs. Polyfiber and Ceconite have rules for their fabrics as I stated. Aerothane allows you to use any of the approved fabrics with theirs.
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as do they all
trivia question..

which system can be applied with out an STC?
 
bluerooster said:
We did our V77 with the fiberglass cloth. I forget what they called it. It was a coarse weave of polyester. coated with dope.
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you mean it was a course weave of glass. that is what fiberglass is.
 
if the instructions for application says that the first coat must be brushed, can it be rolled on with a roller and achieve the same results?
 
Tom-D said:
if the instructions for application says that the first coat must be brushed, can it be rolled on with a roller and achieve the same results?
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I would bet that they specify brushing because they find it works best. A brush forces the stuff against the fabric as a roller might, but also works it laterally, maybe filling the fibers more completely. And rollers introduce air bubbles, leading to cratering.

Recover jobs are expensive. They can cost more than the airplane is worth. Why would someone risk losing the whole thing by second-guessing the engineers who developed it?
 
Dan Thomas said:
I would bet that they specify brushing because they find it works best. A brush forces the stuff against the fabric as a roller might, but also works it laterally, maybe filling the fibers more completely. And rollers introduce air bubbles, leading to cratering.

Recover jobs are expensive. They can cost more than the airplane is worth. Why would someone risk losing the whole thing by second-guessing the engineers who developed it?
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I was quite surprised how much better the little short pile roller pushed the primer thru the fabric.
 
Tom-D said:
trivia question..

which system can be applied with out an STC?
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Whatever system was originally applied?

Tom-D said:
if the instructions for application says that the first coat must be brushed, can it be rolled on with a roller and achieve the same results?
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Are you installing the fabric system in accordance with the STC if you apply it with a roller instead of a brush?
 
mondtster said:
Whatever system was originally applied?

We have a winner :)



Are you installing the fabric system in accordance with the STC if you apply it with a roller instead of a brush?
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No, but I do, do test panels and make suggestions to the suppliers. I did see and talk to the Stewarts quite often when they were my suppliers.
 
mondtster said:
As a side note with this,


What do you want to know about it?

I've worked with Air Tech a little and done a couple of jobs with Superflite. They seem very similar to me.
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I haven't, the 20% cheaper got my attention. so I asked.
 
Tom-D said:
I haven't, the 20% cheaper got my attention. so I asked.
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The processes are similar. Primer/UV protection is combined in one process, then color over top of that.

My concern with both Air Tech and Superflite is long term durability. I know Superflite had some problems with some of the older processes, and the two airplanes ive been around and worked on with Air Tech on them started cracking after they got older. Both are easy processes to install though and look nice.

I personally am more of a Poly Fiber guy. My Stinson was done in Poly Fiber in the late '80s and it is still in decent shape. The paint is flat but it is still pliable and not cracking, and easily repaired when necessary.
 
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