Paint peeling off in sheets

bluerooster

bluerooster

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Piper Tri Pacer. Not certian what covering system, but it is not Grade A. The coating system is releasing it's self from the fabric in sheets. Not just the color coats, but all the way down to the white fabric. Even the "rando-proof" blue first coat stuff is comming off. The tapes are turning loose as well. And it's not an isolated area, but the entire airplane.
I'm not sure how long ago it was re-covered, (not long enough for that, I'm certian) but I think it may be due again.
What covering system uses tape without pinked edges?
 
fabric wasn't washed prior to base coat application.
Nothing sticks to Ceoconite, the first coat must penetrate thru the fabric and link over on the inner side, it can't do that when the fabric is used as it comes off the loom. Because the fabric has sizing on that fills those holes.
what Color is the interior? Pink, Blue or Grey? white? ceconite is white. :)
 
bluerooster said:
Piper Tri Pacer. Not certian what covering system, but it is not Grade A. The coating system is releasing it's self from the fabric in sheets. Not just the color coats, but all the way down to the white fabric. Even the "rando-proof" blue first coat stuff is comming off. The tapes are turning loose as well. And it's not an isolated area, but the entire airplane.
I'm not sure how long ago it was re-covered, (not long enough for that, I'm certian) but I think it may be due again.
What covering system uses tape without pinked edges?
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Sounds like a owner DIY re-cover. :) yep they saved about $10k. Want to know the easy cure? PM me :)
 
Tom-D said:
Sounds like a owner DIY re-cover. :) yep they saved about $10k. Want to know the easy cure? PM me :)
Click to expand...

What's that have to do with Jack chit?

It was done under the supervision of a AP, looks like it was a crap AP who ether didn't advise properly, didn't know, or didn't care. If you arnt cut out to have guys do owner assist, don't offer it.

To the OPs question, like 90% of paint failures, crap prep.
 
James331 said:
What's that have to do with Jack chit?

It was done under the supervision of a AP, looks like it was a crap AP who ether didn't advise properly, didn't know, or didn't care. If you arnt cut out to have guys do owner assist, don't offer it.

To the OPs question, like 90% of paint failures, crap prep.
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Paint never fails, It's always the attachment.
who said the supervisor knew what they were doing?
Be truthful, did you know the ceconite needs to be washed prior to use?
 
Tom-D said:
Paint never fails, It's always the attachment.
who said the supervisor knew what they were doing?
Be truthful, did you know the ceconite needs to be washed prior to use?
Click to expand...

Isn't that all basically what I just posted???


I wouldn't toss any application on it without some prep, or reading he instructions/talking to the mfgr/AND my AP.
 
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James331 said:
I wouldn't toss any application on it without some prep, or reading he instructions/talking to the mfgr/AND my AP.
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Where would you find those instructions on prep for use, they are not in the Ray Stitz manual or the new poly manual. which was written by Aircraft Spruce and Specialties ?

IOWs show me what prep you are talking about?
 
Not you Tom, I'm enjoying you put James on the spot. :D
 
For those interested in fabric systems there have been a few changes.
The old Stitz system died with Ray Stitz. it's sold under the name of " Polly Fiber " by aircraft spruce & Specialities. the old manual has been re-written by Polly Fiber.
Stewarts System company was sold, and that system is now known as "https://eko-tech.com/aviation/fabric-covering?gclid=CMCb_L7srtECFQuAfgodSOoI_w

there are only two systems that will penetrate ceconite with out washing the fabric.
airtechcoatings.com and eko-tech
 
Tom-D said:
For those interested in fabric systems there have been a few changes.
The old Stitz system died with Ray Stitz. it's sold under the name of " Polly Fiber " by aircraft spruce & Specialities. the old manual has been re-written by Polly Fiber.
Stewarts System company was sold, and that system is now known as "https://eko-tech.com/aviation/fabric-covering?gclid=CMCb_L7srtECFQuAfgodSOoI_w

there are only two systems that will penetrate ceconite with out washing the fabric.
airtechcoatings.com and eko-tech
Click to expand...
Is "Polly Fiber" used by parrots?
http://polyfiber.com/stits/
 
Tom-D said:
For those interested in fabric systems there have been a few changes.
The old Stitz system died with Ray Stitz. it's sold under the name of " Polly Fiber " by aircraft spruce & Specialities. the old manual has been re-written by Polly Fiber.
Stewarts System company was sold, and that system is now known as "https://eko-tech.com/aviation/fabric-covering?gclid=CMCb_L7srtECFQuAfgodSOoI_w

there are only two systems that will penetrate ceconite with out washing the fabric.
airtechcoatings.com and eko-tech
Click to expand...

Tom where's the data showing that you need to wash the fabric prior to coating anything but Airtech and SS/Eco?
 
Tom-D said:
For those interested in fabric systems there have been a few changes.
The old Stitz system died with Ray Stitz. it's sold under the name of " Polly Fiber " by aircraft spruce & Specialities. the old manual has been re-written by Polly Fiber.
Stewarts System company was sold, and that system is now known as "https://eko-tech.com/aviation/fabric-covering?gclid=CMCb_L7srtECFQuAfgodSOoI_w

there are only two systems that will penetrate ceconite with out washing the fabric.
airtechcoatings.com and eko-tech
Click to expand...
http://polyfiber.com/ceconite/
What Coatings Can I Use?
Any nitrate and butyrate dopes you want to use to coat Ceconite must be aircraft-grade NON-TAUTENING types. Classic Aero Coatings (here on our web site) and those made by Randolph Products Co. work very well.
Click to expand...
 
kyleb said:
Tom where's the data showing that you need to wash the fabric prior to coating anything but Airtech and SS/Eco?
Click to expand...
That's the catch,, there isn't any. It's more of a common knowledge thing by those who know.
 
Tom-D said:
note the method of applying.
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What method is that? The web page you quoted only mentions coatings that can be used. It doesn't mention methods of applying or washing it.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
What method is that? The web page you quoted only mentions coatings that can be used. It doesn't mention methods of applying or washing it.
Click to expand...
When you read the entire installation manual of Poly-Fiber it will tell you that the poly-tac, must be brushed on. This is the method they use to force the poly-tac to penetrate the weave.

The OP's case the applicator probably sprayed it. no penetration no adhesion 3-5 years it's falling off.
 
The best manual for best practices of fabric covering :
http://www.airtechcoatings.com/pdfs/fabriccoveringmanual.pdf
quote:
PROCEDURE:
  1. To ensure primer attains the maximum wetting and adhesion the entire fabric covering must be cleaned

    with Air-Tech Fabric Wash (RF 4020 Rev. 3). Allow it to dry 30 minutes before application of the

    primer.

  2. Although it is possible to spray all three coats in succession, color coats stand up better if one applies

    two coats of primer then wait overnight, lightly sand and then apply the third coat of primer. Spray good wet coats but don’t attempt to load up the primer; this will only retard cure. If additional coats are applied to fill weave or hide tapes wait until previous coats are fully cured!
Apply coats as wet as possible to ensure good soakage into the fabric weave. It is permissible to apply the first coat with a brush, usually on fine weaves; thin this coat to avoid brush marks!

Notes:
 
mscard88 said:
Not you Tom, I'm enjoying you put James on the spot. :D
Click to expand...

Not so much.

I feel maybe I'm speaking a foreign language, or perhaps should use smaller words, perhaps include pictures for folks to follow along? Maybe get a groupon for hooked on phonics?

What I said, ,very clearly- and in basic English, when asked what -I- would do, I laid out what I would do, which to sum it up, would be to consult both any manuals that came with whatever product, consult the maker of said product, and consult my mechanic who is ultimately going to be responsible for said application, this ain't rocket surgery, this is common sense which could be applied to nearly anything.

I have not covered a plane before, however if your paint is falling off, it doesn't take a master fabric guru to surmise that you probably have a prep issue. No where here did I claim I was a AP, a master of fabric, or any thing else along those lines.

Where I did speak with a little more tone was at toms foolish immediate finger pointing at the owner.
 
James331 said:
Where I did speak with a little more tone was at toms foolish immediate finger pointing at the owner.
Click to expand...

I don't think it was foolish. Tom even told the guy to PM him and Tom would give him a solution. James if you don't know what you're talking about maybe you shouldn't pipe up?
 
I believe it to be Ceconite with Poly fiber coating. With the way the tapes are comming off, I would suspect that the glue holding the fabric to the airframe may start to release at some point. I don't know for certian who did the job, (I haven't seen the logs). It appears to not be presewn
envelopes, as there are no machine stitched seams that I have found. So I assume it to be yardgoods, with glued lap joints.
From what I've seen, it may be less expensive in the long run to re-cover, than to try to repair, due to the extent of the problem.
 
mscard88 said:
I don't think it was foolish. Tom even told the guy to PM him and Tom would give him a solution. James if you don't know what you're talking about maybe you shouldn't pipe up?
Click to expand...

Brother, take a step back, slowly re read what wrote, sound out each work, look up any words you don't understand, the tell me what I said that was false.
 
Airtech is a urethane system. Ceconite is usually a dope system. Polyfiber (Stits) is a vinyl system. Some of you are giving advice that doesn't cross between systems. The fabric should be stamped Ceconite, Polyfiber, etc. If the undercoat is blue it isn't Stits, that would be pink. Blue is indicative of nitrate dope, the first coat of any dope system. Nitrate dope is required as the first coat because butyrate dope won't stick to dacron fabric. Nitrate is crazy flammable but it sticks to the fabric. Butyrate then sticks to the nitrate. My mechanic is a fabric guru and won't use Randolph nitrate dope because it comes off in sheets. He will use dope systems with dac-proofer as the first coat but we can't get dac-proofer in Alaska these days. And that's why my plane is being covered in Polyfiber. Coincidentally, a friend is a mechanic and support pilot for a big airshow performance team. He won't use Randolph nitrate because it peels off. Two big time mechanics, same story. Yikes!

Ceconite used to use Classic Aero dopes, which also had blue nitrate, and that worked great. That's what we used on my last Cub about 10 years ago. But the Polyfiber group bought Randolph and now that's all they offer for dopes. I don't think Superflight does any dopes anymore. Covering products have changed. Beware.

How to repair what you have? You'll have to sign it into service? The best repair plan starts with a razor blade. Cut it off and start over.
 
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mscard88 said:
:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

I know, it's probably very frustrating for you, take your time

Actually let me make it easier on you.


Do you think prepping a surface before application is a bad idea?

Do you think reading any and all documentation that may have come with a product before doing a job is a bad idea?

Do you think using the knowledge of the manufactor of a product you bought is a bad idea?

Do you think asking for advise of your AP (who you are doing the work under) is a bad idea?
 
Stewartb said:
Airtech is a urethane system. Ceconite is usually a dope system. Polyfiber (Stits) is a vinyl system.
Click to expand...
Some of the confusion is that only Polyfiber (stits) sells both the fabric and the coatings. Ceconite sells fabric and their STC specifies which coating to use (indeed it is the Randolph non-tautening butyrate dope). Airtech makes coatings that are approved for polyester (Dacron) fabric, but they don't make fabric.

Agreed, you have to follow the recommendations for the products you're using. On homebuilt you can ignore it at your own peril, on certificate fabric aircraft, these products have recommendations you are obliged to follow.

'There are some basic truths that those who started with cotton or linen coverings need to unlearn. Polyester (Dacron) can't be dope tautened. It's always done with heat (which is why you have to use a non-tautening dope on Ceconite). Further, finishes don't "wet" polyester. Your base coats as well as what you're using for adhesive has to be picked with that in mind (again following the manufacturer's recommendations is the best). And god help you, don't glue things with dope. Steve WIttman learned that one with his life. While the major problem with cotton was keeping WATER off it, that's not a problem so much with polyester. The issue with polyester is keeping UV off it. You need to choose your coatings to preserve this. You can either have a lot of blocking solids in your coatings or you can do what PolyFiber does and start with a UV blocking layer.

Also note that some of these coatings (notably polybrush) aren't compatible with bare metal or plain ZnCrO primers. You need to be using a two-part epoxy on any metal the stuff is going to touch.

Finally, punch testing is of little use to evaluate polyester fabrics. You have to assume that anytime the finish has become compromised that the fabric has as well. As long as your finish is in good shape, the fabric should be.

Anyhow, if the finish is coming off in sheets and exposing fabric, you're looking at a recover. If it's just coming off an underlying layer like polybrush, it's likely that the color coat was incompatible, and you can just repaint it with something legal.
 
James331 said:
I know, it's probably very frustrating for you, take your time

Actually let me make it easier on you.


Do you think prepping a surface before application is a bad idea?

Do you think reading any and all documentation that may have come with a product before doing a job is a bad idea?

Do you think using the knowledge of the manufactor of a product you bought is a bad idea?

Do you think asking for advise of your AP (who you are doing the work under) is a bad idea?
Click to expand...
Oh....my. :eek:
62044804.jpg
 
Tom-D said:
fabric wasn't washed prior to base coat application.
Nothing sticks to Ceoconite, the first coat must penetrate thru the fabric and link over on the inner side, it can't do that when the fabric is used as it comes off the loom. Because the fabric has sizing on that fills those holes.
what Color is the interior? Pink, Blue or Grey? white? ceconite is white. :)
Click to expand...
yup.....:yes:
07e224a02e8f777bb4df338c38f9a2dd.jpg
 
I don't know if the colors have changed, but I have a can of Rand-O-Proof, it's green, non-taughtening Nitrate dope.
The Superflite Dac-proof, that I've used in the past was blue, non-taughtening Nitrate Dope.
 
flyingron said:
Some of the confusion is that only Polyfiber (stits) sells both the fabric and the coatings. Ceconite sells fabric and their STC specifies which coating to use (indeed it is the Randolph non-tautening butyrate dope). Airtech makes coatings that are approved for polyester (Dacron) fabric, but they don't make fabric.

Agreed, you have to follow the recommendations for the products you're using. On homebuilt you can ignore it at your own peril, on certificate fabric aircraft, these products have recommendations you are obliged to follow.

'There are some basic truths that those who started with cotton or linen coverings need to unlearn. Polyester (Dacron) can't be dope tautened. It's always done with heat (which is why you have to use a non-tautening dope on Ceconite). Further, finishes don't "wet" polyester. Your base coats as well as what you're using for adhesive has to be picked with that in mind (again following the manufacturer's recommendations is the best). And god help you, don't glue things with dope. Steve WIttman learned that one with his life. While the major problem with cotton was keeping WATER off it, that's not a problem so much with polyester. The issue with polyester is keeping UV off it. You need to choose your coatings to preserve this. You can either have a lot of blocking solids in your coatings or you can do what PolyFiber does and start with a UV blocking layer.

Also note that some of these coatings (notably polybrush) aren't compatible with bare metal or plain ZnCrO primers. You need to be using a two-part epoxy on any metal the stuff is going to touch.

Finally, punch testing is of little use to evaluate polyester fabrics. You have to assume that anytime the finish has become compromised that the fabric has as well. As long as your finish is in good shape, the fabric should be.

Anyhow, if the finish is coming off in sheets and exposing fabric, you're looking at a recover. If it's just coming off an underlying layer like polybrush, it's likely that the color coat was incompatible, and you can just repaint it with something legal.
Click to expand...
Couple notes to add to your post.

Poly-Fiber process, must be brushed for the first coat to adhere to the ceconite.
they protect the fabric with a silver reflective coating, not a UV additive, like Airtech.
The old dope and cotton was applied using dope as a glue, Steve Whitman died because nothing chemically attaches to ceconite. You must encapsulate ceconite with a strong glue.
 
As an A&P with no real fabric experience since A&P school many years ago, I find this thread very informative even with the usual posturing that goes on.
 
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