PA 28-235 Down in Illinois, 4 Dead, 5/31/2020

Discussion in 'Aviation Mishaps' started by Kenny Phillips, Jun 1, 2020.

  1. smv

    smv Cleared for Takeoff

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    I would not bet on that. The higher you go, the bigger they get. I have seen Canada Geese in the flight levels.

    Then there is this:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_birds_by_flight_heights
     
  2. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The outboard wings coming off is one of the patterns seen in Vne accidents. Tail comes off and wings fail under the negative load.
     
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  3. michiganfly

    michiganfly Filing Flight Plan

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    Hi All, I went to school with & knew all 4 of the guys who were on the piper that day.
    Very Sad. All were very smart guys, no way was it intentional. plane was in great condition. Owner/Pilot was new and just got the plane a couple months before this accident.
    I appreciate all the analysis and updates from NTSB.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2020
  4. 3393RP

    3393RP En-Route

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    I know from experience that losing several friends in a single accident is a heart wrenching ordeal. I offer my sympathies to you.
     
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  5. David235

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    Condolences. I hope the NTSB is able to determine a cause.
     
  6. Bill Jennings

    Bill Jennings Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Sorry for your loss.
     
  7. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips En-Route

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    They will likely determine a cause even if they cannot determine a cause.
     
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  8. Kristin

    Kristin Cleared for Takeoff

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    NTSB: Pilot failed to maintain adequate terrain clearance.
     
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  9. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    Odd. I thought there was an RVSM restriction for the higher altitudes that keeps the geese lower. Back in the 1970s this was not an issue though, a vulture was sucked into an engine while the plane was cranking it up at 37,000 ft. True story: https://sora.unm.edu/sites/default/files/journals/wilson/v086n04/p0461-p0462.pdf

    "Pilot's failure to X" is basically the standard boiler plate they use, regardless of what the actual cause was. $10 says had the above resulted in a crash "pilot's failure to avoid vulture" would be probably cause
     
  10. ktup-flyer

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    The GoPro will tell a lot if it was recording
     
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  11. Flying Doc

    Flying Doc Filing Flight Plan

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    I have a friend who was a colleague of the pilot, and I only hear great things about him. This was a terrible tragedy surely and too close to “home”, for me as a pilot. I also recently learned to fly high performance airplanes and I find them to require more attention and to be less forgiving than the planes we typically earn our PPL in. 45deg turns (which seems to be the left turn they did?...) take some effort to keep the plane from descending(nose dropping)..and its easy to fall behind the plane at the higher speeds. To his friend: I think we all want to know what happened because turning a plane to show a friend how its done should not kill anyone and we all do that with friends. As with anything we need to learn from what happened so that hopefully we can prevent in future. I know I have shown friends 45 deg turns (in part because we need to practice those regularly for proficiency) and other maneuvers that I try to stay proficient at.
     
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  12. Kenny Phillips

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    I have shown friends 60° level turns, just so that they could feel two g's. I always asked first. I've also offered to show spins, but never got a single taker. But I do these things with a couple of thousand feet between the ground and where I figure I'll end up after the maneuver, as most pilots would likely do.
     
  13. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The 235 is on paper 'high performance', at the end of the day it's still a Cherokee. This is not the kind of plane that easily gets away from you or where you have to pay careful attention to your speed when you initiate a turn.
     
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  14. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I haven't been following the thread, but is it possible he was low on fuel in one wing and when he did the steep turn his engine cut out?
     
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  15. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser!

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    That shouldnt cause him to spiral into the ground.

    The 235 has 4 tanks. Iirc there is a takeoff restriction that requires you to use the inboard mains.
     
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  16. eman1200

    eman1200 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    "shouldn't", being the keyword. guess that's why they call them accidents.
     
  17. ja_user

    ja_user Pattern Altitude

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    The 235 fuel system is different than the 236?
     
  18. Pilawt

    Pilawt Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Yes. PA-28-235 has four tanks, 84 gallons total (same wing and tanks as the Cherokee Six through 1978). PA-28-236 has two, 72 gallons total.
     
  19. ja_user

    ja_user Pattern Altitude

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    I guess the Hershey bar wing was setup different with the Tanks. Didn't realize that, I do have some 236 time and assumed everything prior that was pa28 was setup the same way.
     
  20. David235

    David235 Filing Flight Plan

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    The 235 fuel system is four tanks, KISS simple. By the book the mains are used first, then the tips. On their relatively short flight the tips would likely not be needed... especially only one hour into the flight. Like a lot of aircraft a fuel imbalance will telegraph itself... I regularly change tanks at 30 minute intervals to keep the ship in trim. It has been my habit to run down the mains to about five gallons or so, then use the tip tanks... but most flights are accomplished without ever using the tip tanks. In any case, 84 gallons gets you a long way in a 235...
     
  21. David235

    David235 Filing Flight Plan

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    P.S. now that I am retired, most of my flights are at 50-60% power, I just don't need to get anywhere fast.... and my bladder capacity is now much less than half of my fuel capacity. :) It's just a part of getting old(er). Putzing along at 120 knots is just fine these days.
     
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  22. midwestpa24

    midwestpa24 Pattern Altitude

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    Unfortunately short of evidence of a clear easy to find mechanical failure or toxicology report of some type, there may not be much to go on. Small planes don't carry much in the way of recording equipment, unless he had a Gopro running. Anything piloting related would be mostly speculation.
     
  23. Juliet Hotel

    Juliet Hotel Pattern Altitude

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    This. I've heard CFI's warn students about the risks of trying to fly a 182 too early after their private because its such a high performance airplane. Well, yeah I guess technically its high performance. None of the 182's I ever flew seemed all that eager to pull the reins out of my hands and start heading for the red line the moment I turned my back.
     
  24. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser!

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    They are basically fiberglass tip-tanks molded to the outboard wing. Similar to the six.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2020
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  25. Kenny Phillips

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    Back in the day, I found the jumps from 150 to 172 to 182 to be trivial, as well. None of these planes nor the Cherokees are anything scary.
     
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  26. Bender Aviation

    Bender Aviation Filing Flight Plan

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    Hardest part of flying the 182 is pulling it out of the parking spot. And relearning the amount of back pressure to use on round-out I guess.
     
  27. Ryanb

    Ryanb Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I’ll admit... as a newly minted pilot with 50 some hours under my belt in 2014, jumping from the 152 to the 172 felt like quite the leap. Sitting up higher, more horses under the hood and heavier controls etc., but I concur, in reality, it’s not that big of a leap from one to the other.
     
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  28. Kenny Phillips

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    Yeah, it does take a bunch more.
     
  29. Bill Jennings

    Bill Jennings Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    The only things remarkable I remember when moving from the 172 to 182 was needing a heavier right boot on the rudder on the takeoff roll, and that correct trim was critical on short final to alleviate the heavy elevator on roundout and landing. Other than that (and the cool 6cyl sound), I didn't find it all that difficult, and in fact found the heavier bird easier on xwind landings.

    The real learning was moving to the Mooney, that sucker is slick. You come in too high and/or fast, and you're floating to the next county.
     
  30. 3393RP

    3393RP En-Route

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    My first landing in a P210 was an eye opener. The CFI in the right seat remarked "Nice trap, you caught the third wire". :eek:
     
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  31. cowman

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    I did a PA-28-181 to PA-32R-300 transition in a single 3 hour flight which included complex and HP endorsements. It really doesn't fly that different, most of that lesson was getting used to retract procedures and general familiarization. Flight wise, it's just a heavier elevator pressure to get used to and a little bit faster sink rate but I had that down in a couple of touch and gos, just had to do everything a tad faster in the pattern.

    I would imagine a transition between PA-28s to be even less difficult.
     
  32. Bender Aviation

    Bender Aviation Filing Flight Plan

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    I enjoyed learning to land the Pa-32-300. It took me a 1.5 hour transition lesson coming from only flying high wings. Very nice to not have any float.
     
  33. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser!

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    My CFI also traded in Piper aircraft. One day his Archer was out for a tire replacement or something so I got my lesson in the 235. There is really little difference. I was signed off to fly the 235 solo and used one of them for my solo cross-country.