Oshkosh VFR arrival: Choosing between the 90 knot and the 135 knot arrival

Ron Levy said:
Piper J-3 Cub can't go that fast in level flight. DC-7 can't go that slow without falling out of the sky. Both are piston-powered, too. I'd run out of fingers and toes quickly trying to count all the others which could be added to those lists.
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I wasn't counting planes that couldn't go fast enough -- we were talking about planes that couldn't go slow enough.

And I certainly wasn't counting 4-engine prop-driven airliners! :lol:
 
Jaybird180 said:
Based on what we know from the description, either of those make poor guesses. However, he's already said TBM850.


and then there were crickets on that question.
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TBM-850 uses the Turbine Arrival, not Fisk.
 
Jay Honeck said:
I wasn't counting planes that couldn't go fast enough -- we were talking about planes that couldn't go slow enough.

And I certainly wasn't counting 4-engine prop-driven airliners! :lol:
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You asked the question, I answered the question you asked. :dunno: Next one on the list would have been a Tu-95 -- which is not a "4-engine prop-driven airliner". :D
 
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KSCessnaDriver said:
How about a guy coming in a P-51 or a B-25 that want to fly the arrival?
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There is the Turbojet/Warbird arrival. It's designed for people who can keep their speed up and follow instructions unlike many people who start threads on this board.
 
flyingron said:
There is the Turbojet/Warbird arrival. It's designed for people who can keep their speed up and follow instructions unlike many people who start threads on this board.
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Don't short sell the people who usually snark on the threads of others.
 
I've been stuck behind a breezy on the transition, just do the best you can. Sometimes the fisk guys will suggest even lower for those guys but that is problematic because it puts you into the UL/rotorcraft pattern if you're heading for 36. I've also been stuck behind some clown in a 182 who for some reason was flying the transition at 70. I gave up and started back to Ripon but just then Fisk noticed what I was doing and said I could just do a 360 and come back around. I managed to catch up with the clown again before I got to the runway.

Everything works better when you just follow the instructions that have been in place for 25+ years rather than trying to justify why your SO SPECIAL that you need to be doing something else.
 
I have to say that this thread is making me really want to attempt an Oshkosh visit at some point. When I finally get around to purchasing an aircraft, I am doing this. It seems like a blast all the way around.

This has really been an inspiration.
 
I'll extend an invitation. If anybody here makes it to Oshkosh via means other than in a small aircraft and wants to see the Ripon transition, hunt me down in Vintage (you usually can find my wife in the Vintage Flight Line operations building or just ask whoever else is there if I'm around or you can leave a message). I give rides to the volunteers and select others on and off throughout the week.
 
In all of this controlled chaos, has there been any incidents of trading paint?
 
Jaybird180 said:
In all of this controlled chaos, has there been any incidents of trading paint?
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Yes, but surprisingly few all things considered. The last one I recall was a few years ago when a Cub and a Cherokee merged, but both landed safe and there were no injuries. Seems there's more of a chance of a ground accident between 2 aircraft at OSH or a single aircraft accident than a mid-air between 2.
 
As Todd states, they went for decades with no midairs. They had the incident he described which to my knowledge is the only one. It's more common for single aircraft accidents either in the pattern or loss of control on touch down. The most flamboyant of which was ol' one-eyed jacks crash a few years ago.

Don't know of any real serious paint swapping on the ground other than the TBM ran over an RV6 while taxiing for departure a few years back. Usually it's a slowly taxiing plane hitting either another plane, a post, or getting into trouble with a swale or other ground feature.

This is discounting a couple of bad wrecks in the airshow/showcases which really aren't part of the normal arrival/departures.
 
Jaybird180 said:
In all of this controlled chaos, has there been any incidents of trading paint?
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I was the controller working Fisk one day in 1990 when we had one. The first I knew of it was when the EAA Bell 47 helicopter called me up, said he was just off the airport, flying outbound along the railroad tracks, low, "...looking for the plane that went down."

Say, what???

Turned out, a T-18 and a Cessna 170 had tangled, somewhere between Ripon and Fisk. Nobody said anything about it on Fisk or Tower freq, but the 170 made it to the airport, and although the pilot knew something had happened out there, he wasn't sure what-- until he got out of the airplane and found one of his flaps had been pretty badly chopped up by a prop.

He told the EAA parking people, who diverted the EAA helicopter to look for the other airplane. They found it fairly quickly, the T18 went down in a field a couple of miles beyond Fisk, with damage, but no injuries.

Here's the NTSB report on that one: http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20001212X23657&key=1.

And here's the full narrative NTSB report on the 2010 PA11/PA32 incident mentioned earlier: http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20100730X91552&ntsbno=CEN10IA447B&akey=2.
 
I've mentioned this before, but if you have a car go visit Fisk during arrivals. It's the best air show in town!

How those controllers stay sane is beyond me. If you are working on a PhD in psychology, there is a good thesis about how the Fisk controllers avoid going postal waiting to be written!.
 
Henning said:
No it's not, nothing to it but to do it.
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Agreed. Just go. The only way to learn about really traveling with an airplane is just to do it. Treat it as a series of short cross-countries and make a new weather decision at each stop. Carry a credit card for a hotel room if the weather craps out. Or sleep on the FBO's sofa.
 
JimNtexas said:
I've mentioned this before, but if you have a car go visit Fisk during arrivals. It's the best air show in town!



How those controllers stay sane is beyond me. If you are working on a PhD in psychology, there is a good thesis about how the Fisk controllers avoid going postal waiting to be written!.
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I believe Alan usually takes them Gatorade and other niceties that FAA doesn't provide. Better toilet paper too.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Re: The OP's post.

Is there a prop-driven plane that can't be flown safely at 90 knots?
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For my airplane it depends on what you mean by "Safely". Vyse (best rate single engine) is 100 KIAS and it is strongly recommended that you remain at or above that speed until your landing is "assured". But with approach flaps extended the stall speed at MGW is around 70 KIAS so 90 KIAS is almost 1.3 Vs in that configuration. The problem with that procedure is that if you lose an engine it's unlikely you'd be able to continue on one unless you were very light.

That said I have flown the low approach altitude more than once because the higher speed option isn't always available.
 
Hawka said:
I'd like to hear from anyone who has actually done the 135 knot arrival.
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I've done the 135 knot arrival 3 times, twice when not much traffic, once when busy. Maintain 135 knots until Fisk. When it was busy they gave me a 360 over Fisk, then blended me in behind the 90 knotters.

The real key is to arrive early in the morning. It won't be any more busy than your local field. Spend the night at a nearby airport (100miles or so), then enjoy the arrival.:goofy:
 
Datadriver said:
I've done the 135 knot arrival 3 times, twice when not much traffic, once when busy. Maintain 135 knots until Fisk. When it was busy they gave me a 360 over Fisk, then blended me in behind the 90 knotters.

The real key is to arrive early in the morning. It won't be any more busy than your local field. Spend the night at a nearby airport (100miles or so), then enjoy the arrival.:goofy:
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Thanks, what were you flying?
 
JimNtexas said:
I've mentioned this before, but if you have a car go visit Fisk during arrivals. It's the best air show in town!

How those controllers stay sane is beyond me. If you are working on a PhD in psychology, there is a good thesis about how the Fisk controllers avoid going postal waiting to be written!.
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Is there directions or an address where they are at?
 
If I remember, you come down Route 44 to Fisk avenue and turn right. Then turn right again and you should see them in a little trailer with a porch out front. If you get to the railroad tracks you've gone too far.
 
flyingron said:
If I remember, you come down Route 44 to Fisk avenue and turn right. Then turn right again and you should see them in a little trailer with a porch out front. If you get to the railroad tracks you've gone too far.
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Sounds simple to find. Thanks.
 
N801BH said:
Hmmmm.... I "think" FISK is outside the Delta airspace....:dunno:...

I know when I depart, I stay below 1300 till clearing the Delta and then climb right up to 12,500 in about 4 minutes to head home.. It keeps me clear of incoming idiots...:idea:..........:yes:
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Yes, Fisk is just outside the Delta, so the entire Ripon-Fisk transition is likewise outside the Delta. So, it's possible that someone who's not paying attention will take off from 27, exit the Delta at 1300 and begin climbing, and if they have crappy climb performance end up near the arrivals.

For all the attention people pay to the traffic around OSH, it seems that the emphasis is always on the arrival. I've seen countless people completely forget that there are procedures for departure as well!

The worst potential conflict point in terms of arrivals conflicting with departures is when 27 is in use. The clowns who don't read or follow the departure procedure climb right up through the traffic over the tracks heading for the right downwind to 27. :mad2:
 
txflyer said:
When you get to Ripon, do you ride 120.7 all the way to touchdown? Or do they give you a frequency change at Pickett/Fisk and a wing wag?
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You will always be told to monitor tower at Fisk, and the frequency they give you depends on which runway transition they give you. If you'll be landing 9 or 27, it'll be 118.5. If you're landing 18 or 36, it'll be 126.6. These are at the top of the graphics on each of the arrival pages in the NOTAM.

You also won't get anything until you're 1/2 mile or less from Fisk. Your first time in, it's really easy to get excited and think an instruction is for you when you're at or even before Pickett. (especially if you fly a white Cessna :rofl:) However, the controllers can't even see you until that last 1/2 mile or so before Fisk.

Give this a watch and see if it helps - It's me flying and Troy on the camera:

http://vimeo.com/1484051
 
flyingron said:
Everything works better when you just follow the instructions that have been in place for 25+ years rather than trying to justify why your SO SPECIAL that you need to be doing something else.
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This!!!!

Several years ago I was on the low arrival at 90 knots when the ceilings were at 1500 AGL. Some Cirrus driver thought it'd be a good idea to fly at 135 knots and about 1825 MSL. :mad2:

I don't go in unless the ceilings are at least 2000 AGL now...
 
flyingron said:
I'll extend an invitation. If anybody here makes it to Oshkosh via means other than in a small aircraft and wants to see the Ripon transition, hunt me down in Vintage (you usually can find my wife in the Vintage Flight Line operations building or just ask whoever else is there if I'm around or you can leave a message). I give rides to the volunteers and select others on and off throughout the week.
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I've made this invitation myself in years past (see Troy's video), but usually it's for first-timers who are airlining into Milwaukee. I'll go down and pick 'em up. Troy, Bill, Adam, Alon, and others have arrived at OSH in style this way. :)

Unfortunately, the plane's gonna be in annual during the show this year. :(
 
If I had to give just one little tip to a first-timer, it would be this: Get a small sticky note and tape it to the microphone OR the PTT if it mounted on the wheel. In BOLD RED PEN, write just one word on it -- NO

Unlike 99.99% of what you have been taught about acknowledging every ATC transmission, do NOT say a single word UNLESS you are asked a direct question that REQUIRES an answer. no, No, NO talking unless you are on fire.

Even then, just give them coordinates so they can cover the smoking hole over.

Jim
 
Datadriver said:
The real key is to arrive early in the morning. It won't be any more busy than your local field. Spend the night at a nearby airport (100miles or so), then enjoy the arrival.:goofy:
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I've had good luck fairly late in the evening, too. A couple of times I've been one of the last handful of aircraft in, and they'll usually start asking in the last 10 minutes or so on the Fisk frequency for any inbound aircraft to call them, and usually they'll just send everyone direct to the field, skipping the whole procedure.
 
JB1842 said:
Is there directions or an address where they are at?
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They'll be right here:

https://goo.gl/maps/JOLRz

That little gravel lot on the east side of the road. The pad at the south end will have a trailer on it, and there'll be a half-dozen guys in pink shirts outside with binoculars... Kinda hard to miss once you get there. ;)
 
flyingcheesehead said:
They'll be right here:

https://goo.gl/maps/JOLRz

That little gravel lot on the east side of the road. The pad at the south end will have a trailer on it, and there'll be a half-dozen guys in pink shirts outside with binoculars... Kinda hard to miss once you get there. ;)
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It's funny. I've flown into OSH many times, and I've never once seen that trailer or those guys.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk
 
weirdjim said:
If I had to give just one little tip to a first-timer, it would be this: Get a small sticky note and tape it to the microphone OR the PTT if it mounted on the wheel. In BOLD RED PEN, write just one word on it -- NO

Unlike 99.99% of what you have been taught about acknowledging every ATC transmission, do NOT say a single word UNLESS you are asked a direct question that REQUIRES an answer. no, No, NO talking unless you are on fire.

Even then, just give them coordinates so they can cover the smoking hole over.

Jim
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It's great fun in the peanut gallery along 27 in the lawn chairs when some idiot starts talking to the controllers like it's old home week. We holler stuff like "shut UP you moron!" As we all laugh. The controllers always handle it very professionalky with only a hint that they're talking to a child who can't or won't read. ;)

My funny was departing as the first IFR departure a couple years ago early in the morning Wednesday or Thursday I forget which. Forecast was for iffy VFR ceilings to start with the field probably closed to VFR traffic, and burning off and better to the West and co-owner and I needed to be back home if we could, so I played the slot time game on the iPad the night before and got one, and did all the correct stuff...

Taxiing out the ground controller says, "follow the flag men from there"...

You could tell we were by ourselves and he wasn't looking outside.

"Okay, they're not quite there yet but we're following the car that's about to drop him off in front of us. No problem, we're in no hurry." :)

Poor guy about kills himself diving out of the car and then... waving us past the car. LOL. Easy man. I'm not a jet and not burning hundreds of pounds an hour sitting here. Don't hurt yourself.

We played in the broken scud for about 20 miles and then blue skies all the way home. I felt bad for the radar controller... "Cessna 79M, Multiple targets, multiple altitudes all generally along your direction of flight... Maneuvering..."

The field had opened up VFR about two minutes after we departed (early by the forecast by at least an hour, maybe two) and the mad inbound rush was on...! I think that was the controllers way of saying, "Hell if I know if they're going to hit you... Hope you're looking outside!" ;)
 
Jay Honeck said:
It's funny. I've flown into OSH many times, and I've never once seen that trailer or those guys.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk
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Many years ago they put strobes at FISK or a giant balloon to mark it. They've stopped doing that in recent years. I don't know why. Frankly I thought it did help. It's not easy to identify Fisk so if there are other "WHITE HIGH WING" or "YELLOW CUBS" in the transition, it'shandy to know when you're actually at the turn point.
 
Nowadays, FISK is a GPS point. This year, there will be a balloon hanging over it on our EFIS, depicted with synthetic vision.

I bet we STILL won't see it. lol!
 
Yeah, the FAA finally put real intersection names on RIPON. They don't seem to have done Fisk. The old Apollo databases used to have RIPON and FISK preloaded if I recall properly. Garmin decided it would be more useful (right) to have the Garmin headquarters in Olathe instead. RIPON and FISK have been manual waypoints in my database since I got it.
 
Jay Honeck said:
It's funny. I've flown into OSH many times, and I've never once seen that trailer or those guys.
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I probably wouldn't have either had I not flown in once when they had the old weird strobe thingy going. Now that I know where to look, I see 'em every time.

This year when you go in, as you approach Fisk, look for the spot where the roads appear to converge in town, and then look directly north along the road to the top of the hill and you'll see them.
 
flyingron said:
Many years ago they put strobes at FISK or a giant balloon to mark it. They've stopped doing that in recent years. I don't know why. Frankly I thought it did help.
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I liked it too, but there were too many people mistaking the white strobe on the small tower about halfway up the tracks for Fisk (I did that the first time too), thinking they were next to Fisk, and taking instructions meant for a different airplane. So, they got rid of it.

I think it'd be much more helpful if they put the strobe up and took a picture of it to put in the NOTAM.
 
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