Oshkosh VFR arrival: Choosing between the 90 knot and the 135 knot arrival

[flyingcheesehead]

Yeah, the FAA finally put real intersection names on RIPON. They don't seem to have done Fisk. The old Apollo databases used to have RIPON and FISK preloaded if I recall properly. Garmin decided it would be more useful (right) to have the Garmin headquarters in Olathe instead. RIPON and FISK have been manual waypoints in my database since I got it.

Fisk is FISKE - Page 4 of the NOTAM.

RIPON and FISKE have been in the FAA waypoint database since at least 2006. They weren't there in 2002 (the earliest NOTAM I have).

 

[N801BH]

First year I flew in back in the 2006-9 range, I followed the NOTAM to the TEE........ It was clearly printed that there would be arrows painted on the tracks pointing to Fisk.....

So.. I find the silo's at Ripon,, I think,,,

And start following the tracks.. and NO arrows..

At this stage I am beginning the question if I was doing this right...

When I get to what I was hoping was Fisk, I hear those wonderful words... Bright Orange highwing,.... wag them.... So I did and got the message to do the straight ahead to 27 landing.. The guy actually knew it was a Zenith 801 too.. I was impressed..

 

[Jay Honeck]

First year I flew in back in the 2006-9 range, I followed the NOTAM to the TEE........ It was clearly printed that there would be arrows painted on the tracks pointing to Fisk.....

So.. I find the silo's at Ripon,, I think,,,

And start following the tracks.. and NO arrows..

At this stage I am beginning the question if I was dong this right...

Now THAT is funny!

Since it's Mary's year to fly in, this will be my first year as co-pilot in the back seat of the RV-8A. With that big ol' bubble canopy, I will have vastly improved visibility for spotting traffic.

I'm not sure that's really helpful on the Fisk Approach, but it ought to keep my heart rate up.

Visibility down is not much different from the old Pathfinder, so I suspect I will STILL not spot the guys on the trailer...but that's okay. We know the way.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

First year I flew in back in the 2006-9 range, I followed the NOTAM to the TEE........ It was clearly printed that there would be arrows painted on the tracks pointing to Fisk.....

So.. I find the silo's at Ripon,, I think,,,

And start following the tracks.. and NO arrows..

At this stage I am beginning the question if I was dong this right...

Yeah, same with the strobe going away. It was in the NOTAM, someone just decided to turn it off a bunch of the time, so it was off and on for a couple of years. Then, it stopped making the trip.

Similar story with the arrows - Some years they're there, some years I don't see 'em. But I couldn't say they're really not there since I'm mostly not looking at the ground.

 

[flyingron]

One of the reasons is that it was noisy. When it was right next to the trailer you heard those strobes going POP-POP-POP continually. I noticed in subsequent years they moved it a ways over from the trailer and then it sort of turned into what appeared to just be a weather balloon tied to the ground (not to be confused with the SOS Brothers Beer Tent).

 

[Jay Honeck]

Yeah, same with the strobe going away. It was in the NOTAM, someone just decided to turn it off a bunch of the time, so it was off and on for a couple of years. Then, it stopped making the trip.

Similar story with the arrows - Some years they're there, some years I don't see 'em. But I couldn't say they're really not there since I'm mostly not looking at the ground.

Wait...there were REALLY big arrows on the ground? I thought he was joking!

 

[flyingron]

There used to be bright orange arrows (really just a rectangle with a pointy end on one side) on the side of the tracks.

 

[Jay Honeck]

There used to be bright orange arrows (really just a rectangle with a pointy end on one side) on the side of the tracks.

No kidding. Well, I never spotted those, either!

 

[Neal Howard]

My attention is focused on looking out for other aircraft, not stuff on the ground when I'm flying the Oshkosh arrival. I've never seen strobes, arrows or a balloon either in the 7 times I've flown over Fisk.
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[N801BH]

My attention is focused on looking out for other aircraft, not stuff on the ground when I'm flying the Oshkosh arrival. I've never seen strobes, arrows or a balloon either in the 7 times I've flown over Fisk.
​

My eyes are always looking for planes but the critical transition is in the approach and forming up before and around RIPON.. Once you are in the "conga" line then I tend to focus on planes in front and behind me.. And of course that one time looking for the arrows on the railroad tracks.....

 

[weirdjim]

So, Jay, this year Mary is flying the approach and you are the GIB (guy in back).

Suggest you look up the definition of gib




Jim

 

[bjohnsonmn]

So as PIC I feel that doing the 90 knot arrival is not safe in my aircraft. Therefore I believe this means I am unable to do it. Is that fair?

And yes I have read this NOTAM probably 20 times and infuriatingly they do not say what to do after Ripon or how the two streams merge or whether they do at all. If it is as you say it is that the 135 knot/2300 MSL stream starts to drop and slow down (which makes sense) then that is perfect.

Thanks for your reply.

Hey Hawka,
I've done FISKK twice now. The first time in a Sundowner (Pull power to land), and a C182 STOL. Both flights, I did the 90 kt instructions. Overhead, there was a level 7 Charlie Foxtrot of RV's trying to figure out how to fly in a line... I was glad to be lower. In both aircraft, I can fly a 60kt final, without the horn blowing, and able to make course turns in the pattern, though a little wider, but in the end, I had 30 kts buffer to deal with.

If I were to fly in in an airplane who's final was 90 kts, but had a gear down speed of, say 130kt, I'd fly the 135 kt, and if they tell me gear down (which they most likely wood at RIPON/FISKK), I'd reply, Gear speed 130, Final minimum speed 90. These folks should understand, or they will tell you what to do if they don't like it. Also, if you are not stuck in a conga line, and have a little room, you'll find the entire process a lot less stressful.

Here's a little trick I learned last year, that I am reluctant to share, but I will because this is POA, and I should at least share it with someone! I arrive from the West, KFCM. As a way to loosen up, and see how things are flowing into the field, I stop in Green Bay KGRB. Both FBO's are GA friendly, and you are likely to see some pretty cool aircraft. Last year, it was an MU2 meet up... I would be more than 50% of MU2's in flying condition were on that ramp where we parked.

When you leave, Head to a "down wind" leg on the NW shore of Green Lake. This works great... if they are not holding. If they are, go hang out somewhere else, unless you need to get in for camping, or before an airshow. By using that down wind procedure on the NW side of Green Lake, or Puckaway Lake if it is busy (It's the one that looks like Green Lake, directly WSW of the Western end of Green, you can time your "cross wind" entry into the chain of ants. It worked fantastic for us (we also had ADSB-IN onboard with Foreflight and Stratus 2). We were on that WSW track at 100 kts, entered the chain going ENE at 90, and kept that in until we got close to the field and slowed down for other aircraft nearby.

My experience, and what I've heard antidotly from controllers lucky enough to work OSH, is that they want safety. If you can do what you need to do safely, and orderly, they are happy. It is the yahoos that come in NORDO, don't use a NORDO procedure, the ones who cut line, and just don't fly nice that drive them up a wall. Someone who is trying to be safe, that's a good thing.

Have fun! I'll miss this year, but next year's vacation request is already in!

 

[bjohnsonmn]

One other follow up, after going back and wading through the garble...

I understand not wanting to say the plane you fly if it is a TBM... (I saw a drool inducing 950 at my home field, I think). You should know, if you fly it, it is welcome here! There may be a few who snob up and put people down because you can't fly it with the doors off, but most of us will just hope that we meet some day, and can go up for a ride!

If you are coming in, flying the TBM, DEFINATELY do the Turbine arrival. For a number of reasons, it's just the "neighborly" thing to do. I'd a crapped my cowl flaps if a TBM overflew me on the 135, again, for a couple of good and bad reasons.

I hope you go, and have a great time. I camped in a castle of a tent (thought I bought the smaller one at Target) last year, and got to see the afternoon airshow from the tower. OSH is so full of great experiences, and really neat people. Don't let a squabble with forum members make it sour.

 

[JimNtexas]

I understand not wanting to say the plane you fly if it is a TBM

Of course had he mentioned he was flying a TBM he would have missed all that fun trolling, since the next post would have suggested the turbine or 135knot arrival.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

It worked fantastic for us (we also had ADSB-IN onboard with Foreflight and Stratus 2).

A reminder for those who are flying in:

EYES OUTSIDE. It doesn't matter what traffic detection equipment you have, even TCAS II on a Big Fancy Jet, no traffic detection equipment will work in the vicinity of Oshkosh during AirVenture.

That is because every system ever made for detecting traffic, be it ADS-B, TCAS, TIS, TCAD, etc. relies on transponders. Everyone who is following the NOTAM will have their transponder turned off within 30 miles of KOSH (page 4 of this year's NOTAM). So, the vast majority of airplanes flying to and from KOSH will not show up on any of your traffic gadgets! Eyes outside, and fly safe.

 

[gprellwitz]

A reminder for those who are flying in:

EYES OUTSIDE. It doesn't matter what traffic detection equipment you have, even TCAS II on a Big Fancy Jet, no traffic detection equipment will work in the vicinity of Oshkosh during AirVenture.

That is because every system ever made for detecting traffic, be it ADS-B, TCAS, TIS, TCAD, etc. relies on transponders. Everyone who is following the NOTAM will have their transponder turned off within 30 miles of KOSH (page 4 of this year's NOTAM). So, the vast majority of airplanes flying to and from KOSH will not show up on any of your traffic gadgets! Eyes outside, and fly safe.

Glad you mentioned it, because I was about to!

 

[MSPAviator]

GONE to Osh 6X
BEEN to Osh both vfr and ifr
LIVED at Osh many days, always in a tent, even through the inevitable storms.
First Osh visit in the late 70's
Made it from here (purt'near the Mexican border) twice in a C150, once in the Wooden Wonder.

BEEN to OSH both VFR FISK and mass arrival @ 135kt.

LIVED at OSH many days, always in a tent, even through the inevitable storms.

FIRST OSH visit in the late 00's.

 

[bjohnsonmn]

A reminder for those who are flying in:

EYES OUTSIDE. It doesn't matter what traffic detection equipment you have, even TCAS II on a Big Fancy Jet, no traffic detection equipment will work in the vicinity of Oshkosh during AirVenture.

That is because every system ever made for detecting traffic, be it ADS-B, TCAS, TIS, TCAD, etc. relies on transponders. Everyone who is following the NOTAM will have their transponder turned off within 30 miles of KOSH (page 4 of this year's NOTAM). So, the vast majority of airplanes flying to and from KOSH will not show up on any of your traffic gadgets! Eyes outside, and fly safe.

A good reminder. The ADSB in was helpful until we got in range. In this case, I was flying the plane, working on the route, and I had a UND CFII, MEI along (friend). Anyone familiar with KGFK knows that his twin plane sensors in his head are highly tuned and high caliber !! I was also looking

 

[denverpilot]

Look outside, follow the NOTAM, land, don't chop anything or anyone into tiny bits on the way to parking, enjoy the show. Pretty easy.

 

[flyingron]

This will be my 23rd year at Oshkosh.

Flow into FLD (some one else's plane) and stayed in the dorms - 1
Flew in rented 172 and camped in North 40 - 2
Drove up while my plane was in restoration and camped in Scholler - 1
Drove up and camped in Vintage - 2
Flew the Navion in and camped in Vintage - 16

I've got a whole slew of Showplane plaques and mugs kicking around here.
I've got a reasonable selection of volunteer coffee cups until the EAA cheaped out and stopped giving those.

In the past three years I've arrived at Oshkosh:

VFR by normal tower procedures - 2
IFR - 1
Ripon-Fisk - 12
Warbird - 12

 

[txflyer]

So, I keep hearing about these inevitable storms at OSH and I'm wondering how best to keep things good and dry and all.

We'll set our tents under the wings I guess. It can't hurt. And I saw somewhere where someone said it's best to leave your clothes and other essential items in the plane so they don't get storm wet.

It's getting closer! We're buzzed about it.!

 

[steingar]

So, I keep hearing about these inevitable storms at OSH and I'm wondering how best to keep things good and dry and all.

I have a backpacking tent with aluminum poles and sealed seams. I've yet to see so much as a drop of water in it. One year there was the most colossal thunderstorm, when I woke up mine was the only tent anywhere near me still standing.

Pilots are notoriously cheap, but Osh is my yearly vacation. My vacation time is priceless, so to me having a tent that doesn't leave me and my stuff sopping wet is worth the price.

 

[flyingron]

When I camped in the smaller tent with the skyhawk, I pitched the tent under the wing and then through a tarp over the wing and staked it down on both sides. This primarily was for shade. It also gave semi-private access to the door of the airplane as a sort of closet.

I've had a string of various other tents since I bought the Navion and could bring just about anything. What we finally settled on is the 8 man fiberglass pole cabela dome tent. It is roomy, doesn't leak, and the thing stands up to the winds in the obligatory oshkosh thunderstorm that you're sure to get.

I've got an old aluminum pole cabin tent that still is viable but the poles took an odd set in strong winds and I've never been able to form them quite right so the tent lists. Of course, now that we have a storage locker we accumulate more junk at Oshkosh every year. We have everybody's tents, extra chairs, a couple of folding tables, kitchen stuff, etc... we even have a spare tent and a massage table that we set up (one of our volunteers is a pretty accomplished masseuse.).

 

[flyingcheesehead]

So, I keep hearing about these inevitable storms at OSH and I'm wondering how best to keep things good and dry and all.

We'll set our tents under the wings I guess. It can't hurt. And I saw somewhere where someone said it's best to leave your clothes and other essential items in the plane so they don't get storm wet.

It's getting closer! We're buzzed about it.!

When I've flown in in a high wing, I've thrown a tarp over the wing, staked it down, and pitched my tent underneath. That works better than anything else I've done.

 

[weirdjim]

Don't forget the wheel plywood plates and a set of PVC chocks is a good idea also.


I want to put an image here, but it won't let me. What's the secret?


Jim

 

[txflyer]

Chocks: Check
Plates: Check

I like the tarp over the wing for several reasons. It looks like you get pretty cozy with your neighbors since they're in a tent maybe not even twenty feet away ...

I just remembered I need to bring an extra tie down for my tail. If it starts whipping around, that's no Buenos ...

Will anyone throw a fit if we pitch separate tents under each wing with a tarp?

 

[bjohnsonmn]

Year 1 OSH - 2011: During the great blow of 2012, as described by our Canadian neighbors for the stay, "Well, we got in our tent to hold it down, looked over and your tent was floating about a foot off the ground... Then... It was gone."

We found it skewered about three rows over, perfectly through the door. It was never the same after that, but it worked.

OSH 2 - 2013: I picked up a pretty good tent at Target the night before I launched East. Lesson learned, they are bigger than they appear on the package. What we figured was that while the rain fly being on all of the time does make it a bit warm inside, it adds one more level of ground stability. We had that thing hard enough to the ground that if it went, the row of planes were going to be going too.

You are all welcome for the opportunities to snicker at the double entendres

 

[flyingron]

When I've flown in in a high wing, I've thrown a tarp over the wing, staked it down, and pitched my tent underneath. That works better than anything else I've done.

That's exactly what I was talking about except we turned the tent door towards the aircraft.

 

[Cavorter]

Will anyone throw a fit if we pitch separate tents under each wing with a tarp?

No problem doing that.

 

[Jay Honeck]

We have lost two tents at OSH since 1998. One was thrown violently against the aileron, bending a 3/4" aluminum pole in half. (Those ailerons are a LOT tougher than they look. The plane was undamaged.)

That tent was staked down as well as any tent I've ever owned. It didn't matter at all.

The other one, the rain fly shredded in a storm. We patched it with Monster duct tape, and got through the week.

The problem is that size is inversely proportional to strength. If you want a tent that you can stand up in, with room for four, you will want straight walls and a 6' ceiling. This is what we call a "sail", here on the island, and no amount of guy ropes and poles is going to make this design stand up to a really good OSH storm.

I've got a great, hand-made Moss mountaineering tent that is indestructible, thanks to its low profile. I let my son and his wife use that one. They're young enough to where spending a week on your hands and knees doesn't bother them.

I put up with the occasional damaged tent simply because I don't want to spend a week hunched over.

 

[weirdjim]

I let my son and his wife use that one. They're young enough to where spending a week on your hands and knees doesn't bother them.

They are also young enough that they are spending more time horizontal than vertical



Jim

 

[MSPAviator]

Don't forget the wheel plywood plates and a set of PVC chocks is a good idea also.

Thick nylon/plastic cutting boards from the dollar store are potentially a cheaper source of wheel plates than lumber from the hardware store......

 

[JimNtexas]

If you park on the grass at KOSH your airplane will sink to the axles after a couple of days, and it will be a huge pain the back when it comes time to leave.

Bring good tie down stakes and some plates for your wheels! Cutting boards? Great suggestion!!!!

 

[N801BH]

If you park on the grass at KOSH your airplane will sink to the axles after a couple of days, and it will be a huge pain the back when it comes time to leave.

Bring good tie down stakes and some plates for your wheels! Cutting boards? Great suggestion!!!!

Yeah.... I thought so too...


I am guessing the ground is ALOT less firm in the camping area.... While parked in the Zenith display booth all week, my wheels didn't sink in a bit... Altho the dead grass surrounding my plane when I left was hard the believe.. I expected the EAA to send me a bill for grass seeding...

 

[txflyer]

Yeah.... I thought so too...


I am guessing the ground is ALOT less firm in the camping area.... While parked in the Zenith display booth all week, my wheels didn't sink in a bit... Altho the dead grass surrounding my plane when I left was hard the believe.. I expected the EAA to send me a bill for grass seeding...

Plates: check
Tie downs: check
Grass seed: check


What is your rev limit on that engine if I may ask?

Do you have a blog or thread somewhere showing the build?

Experimental beckons to me. Doing something like a high wing Comp Air with a radical engine and getting 200knots maybe plus the STOL would be awesome if it could be done.

 

[kyleb]

So, I keep hearing about these inevitable storms at OSH and I'm wondering how best to keep things good and dry and all.

We'll set our tents under the wings I guess. It can't hurt. And I saw somewhere where someone said it's best to leave your clothes and other essential items in the plane so they don't get storm wet.

It's getting closer! We're buzzed about it.!

A good tent from REI or another serious camping store is the first step. Low profile with aluminum poles is the most durable combination.

We pack our stuff in very large zip-loc bags from target or Wally World. They are available in sizes up to 40 something quarts. If you keep them zipped your stuff can't get wet. They are lightweight and you can see exactly what is in each bag, which eliminates rifling through bag after bag looking for something. Also, they are lightweight, inexpensive and conformable.

 

[txflyer]

A good tent from REI or another serious camping store is the first step. Low profile with aluminum poles is the most durable combination.

We pack our stuff in very large zip-loc bags from target or Wally World. They are available in sizes up to 40 something quarts. If you keep them zipped your stuff can't get wet. They are lightweight and you can see exactly what is in each bag, which eliminates rifling through bag after bag looking for something. Also, they are lightweight, inexpensive and conformable.

That's a dang good idea. I like clear, that would save a lot of fumbling around.

I thought about using some vac pac bags, but since I can't take a vacuum, you'd never get them back in the plane...

 

[N801BH]

Plates: check
Tie downs: check
Grass seed: check


What is your rev limit on that engine if I may ask?

Do you have a blog or thread somewhere showing the build?

Experimental beckons to me. Doing something like a high wing Comp Air with a radical engine and getting 200knots maybe plus the STOL would be awesome if it could be done.

Yup.... www.haaspowerair.com has ALOT of info.... Page 2 = general info has videos too......

 

[Doggtyred]

A good tent from REI or another serious camping store is the first step. Low profile with aluminum poles is the most durable combination.

We pack our stuff in very large zip-loc bags from target or Wally World. They are available in sizes up to 40 something quarts. If you keep them zipped your stuff can't get wet. They are lightweight and you can see exactly what is in each bag, which eliminates rifling through bag after bag looking for something. Also, they are lightweight, inexpensive and conformable.

Army surplus tent stakes.. heavy gauge. Excellent anchors. Don't forget a mallet or hatchet to drive them.

 

[EdLarkin]

Good info. So have you ever had problems with the traffic being slower than 90 knots? I'm probably being overly cautious but was concerned it might be going slower than 90.

The controllers are very accustomed to these kind of issues.

Aviate, navigate, rock you wings!