Oshkosh VFR arrival: Choosing between the 90 knot and the 135 knot arrival

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Hawka

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Hawky
This is a question for those of you familiar with the Oshkosh Fisk arrival. I've never done it myself but am contemplating doing it this year.

For the Fisk arrival into Oshkosh there are two streams it appears one at 1800 feet MSL/90 knots and the other one at 2300 feet MSL/135 knots.

So let's say you're coming in with an aircraft with a typical approach speed of 85 kts - 95 kts on final. So you don't really want to do the lower slower arrival just because you could end up getting kind of slow in the downwind to base to final turns. It is possible but you don't want to get that slow or deal with some other traffic possibly going even slower than 90 knots. I heard there are some pretty slow planes arriving.

So you decide to do the 135 knot arrival at 2300 feet. But also you know from your particular plane that it is going to be tough to maintain 135 knots AND maintain 2300 feet from Ripon onwards with the gear down. The NOTAM says ATC wants to see you lower the gear before Ripon.


My question is: Once you get to Ripon at 2300 feet and 135 knots, do you start reducing altitude (in which case maintaining 135 knots), or is it okay to start dropping below 135 knots?

I'd like to hear from anyone who has actually done the 135 knot arrival.
 
Hawka said:
This is a question for those of you familiar with the Oshkosh Fisk arrival. I've never done it myself but am contemplating doing it this year.

For the Fisk arrival into Oshkosh there are two streams it appears one at 1800 feet MSL/90 knots and the other one at 2300 feet MSL/135 knots.

So let's say you're coming in with an aircraft with a typical approach speed of 85 kts - 95 kts on final. So you don't really want to do the lower slower arrival just because you could end up getting kind of slow in the downwind to base to final turns. It is possible but you don't want to get that slow or deal with some other traffic possibly going even slower than 90 knots. I heard there are some pretty slow planes arriving.

So you decide to do the 135 knot arrival at 2300 feet. But also you know from your particular plane that it is going to be tough to maintain 135 knots AND maintain 2300 feet from Ripon onwards with the gear down. The NOTAM says ATC wants to see you lower the gear before Ripon.


My question is: Once you get to Ripon at 2300 feet and 135 knots, do you start reducing altitude (in which case maintaining 135 knots), or is it okay to start dropping below 135 knots?

I'd like to hear from anyone who has actually done the 135 knot arrival.
Click to expand...

You need to read the NOTAM more carefully. And then read it again, and then a third time, and read it twice again before you leave - You really won't be able to look at it when you're flying the procedure. Eyes outside, fly the airplane.

It says (emphasis mine):

Airventure 2014 NOTAM said:
Altitude / Airspeed – Approach Ripon
maintaining 90 knots at 1,800’ (or
maximum cruise speed if less than 90
knots). If unable, maintain 135 knots at
2,300’.
Click to expand...

So, if you can fly 90 knots, you should fly 90 knots at 1800 feet.

But, let's say you actually can't and you're going to do the 2300 MSL/135 KIAS arrival. You stay at 2300/135 from Ripon to Fisk (see the top graphic on page 5).

Unfortunately, they appear to have gotten rid of the "what to do after FISK" information. If you're flying the 2300/135 arrival, after FISK you should be descending to 1800 and slowing to as close to 90 knots as you can get, and follow the rest of the procedure.

In practice, they'll attempt to assign the 2300/135 aircraft to a different runway than the 1800/90 aircraft. Usually that means the 1800/90 aircraft will keep flying up the tracks to either 9 or 27, and the 2300/135 aircraft will have to follow Fisk Ave to 18/36 and taxi for about a year to get to parking... So that's extra incentive to fly 1800/90 if you can.

Also, you generally won't have a problem with slower-than-90 aircraft. There really aren't that many, and they'll be going close to 90. Unless you come in when they're trying to clear the holding patterns it's very unlikely that you'll have a problem maintaining 90 knots on the arrival.
 
Suck it up Hacky and play by the rules. 90 knots isn't comfortable for me either but the high approach is problematic so it should only be used when you have no other choice.
Besides, ain't no way your overgross whatever is going to do 135 in level flight anyhow.
 
So as PIC I feel that doing the 90 knot arrival is not safe in my aircraft. Therefore I believe this means I am unable to do it. Is that fair?

And yes I have read this NOTAM probably 20 times and infuriatingly they do not say what to do after Ripon or how the two streams merge or whether they do at all. If it is as you say it is that the 135 knot/2300 MSL stream starts to drop and slow down (which makes sense) then that is perfect.

Thanks for your reply.
 
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flyingron said:
Besides, ain't no way your overgross whatever is going to do 135 in level flight anyhow.
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Don't confuse me for someone else ;) and yes it can I will be slowing down from about 180 knots IAS before I get to Fisk in fact...
 
Hawka said:
This is a question for those of you familiar with the Oshkosh Fisk arrival. I've never done it myself but am contemplating doing it this year.

For the Fisk arrival into Oshkosh there are two streams it appears one at 1800 feet MSL/90 knots and the other one at 2300 feet MSL/135 knots.

So let's say you're coming in with an aircraft with a typical approach speed of 85 kts - 95 kts on final. So you don't really want to do the lower slower arrival just because you could end up getting kind of slow in the downwind to base to final turns. It is possible but you don't want to get that slow or deal with some other traffic possibly going even slower than 90 knots. I heard there are some pretty slow planes arriving.

So you decide to do the 135 knot arrival at 2300 feet. But also you know from your particular plane that it is going to be tough to maintain 135 knots AND maintain 2300 feet from Ripon onwards with the gear down. The NOTAM says ATC wants to see you lower the gear before Ripon.


My question is: Once you get to Ripon at 2300 feet and 135 knots, do you start reducing altitude (in which case maintaining 135 knots), or is it okay to start dropping below 135 knots?

I'd like to hear from anyone who has actually done the 135 knot arrival.
Click to expand...

Why would you put your gear down at Rippon? I don't put my gear down until I'm turning final. Keep your speed up at 135 or go down, because I'm coming in at 135, and I'm holding around the lake at 135 if they are holding. Not particularly unusual to hold while a storm cell moves through.
 
Henning said:
Why would you put your gear down at Rippon? I don't put my gear down until I'm turning final. Keep your speed up at 135 or go down, because I'm coming in at 135, and I'm holding around the lake at 135 if they are holding. Not particularly unusual to hold while a storm cell moves through.
Click to expand...


The NOTAM says to put it down by Ripon. Yes of course I would much prefer to only drop the gear like I usually do closer to the field.
 
Hawka said:
The NOTAM says to put it down by Ripon. Yes of course I would much prefer to only drop the gear like I usually do closer to the field.
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Not in a twin I'm not, that's counter safe procedure. It probably wouldn't ding me at OSH since I have enough excess HP to fly dirty on one, but it's unnecessary risk and bad procedure. On a single it doesn't much matter, but if you can't hold 135 with the gear down, get down and slow to 100 if 90 isn't comfortable for you.
 
Henning said:
Not in a twin I'm not, that's counter safe procedure. It probably wouldn't ding me at OSH since I have enough excess HP to fly dirty on one, but it's unnecessary risk and bad procedure. On a single it doesn't much matter, but if you can't hold 135 with the gear down, get down and slow to 100 if 90 isn't comfortable for you.
Click to expand...

So you've done the 135 knot arrival? How soon after Ripon did you start descending? Did ATC tell you when to descend? There are no videos of the higher arrival anywhere so no examples.
 
Hawka said:
So as PIC I feel that doing the 90 knot arrival is not safe in my aircraft. Therefore I believe this means I am unable to do it. Is that fair?
Click to expand...
Yes, it is fair. But if you can't do the 90-knot arrival, you have to do the 135-knot arrival. If you can't do that either, land at Fond du Lac and drive to OSH.
 
Ron Levy said:
Yes, it is fair. But if you can't do the 90-knot arrival, you have to do the 135-knot arrival. If you can't do that either, land at Fond du Lac and drive to OSH.
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Well I can do the 135 knot arrival if I fly it like Henning flies it. i.e. don't drop the gear at Ripon.
 
Hawka said:
Well I can do the 135 knot arrival if I fly it like Henning flies it. i.e. don't drop the gear at Ripon.
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If (as I believe it reads) it only suggests (e.g., "should" or "recommended"), rather than requires (e.g., "shall" or "must") lowering the gear at RIPON, then you should be fine that way. So what is the exact wording on that point in the NOTAM?
 
How much runway is the OP going to chew up if his airplane can't even fly at 90 knots? Most days they're landing between the dots and you only have about 1500 feet or so.
 
Hawka said:
This is a question for those of you familiar with the Oshkosh Fisk arrival. I've never done it myself but am contemplating doing it this year.

For the Fisk arrival into Oshkosh there are two streams it appears one at 1800 feet MSL/90 knots and the other one at 2300 feet MSL/135 knots.
Click to expand...

According to my logbook, I've done the Ripon approach 24 times. The first two years I was there, there was no "arrival" procedure and it really got ... um ... interesting. The tower tape is available and I think I've got a copy of what they called "Fantastic Friday". It was a frikkin zoo.

Anyway, 23 of the 24 were done at 90 and I got up the nerve to cram the levers forward one year for the 135 thing. I will tell you that 90 gives you the time to collect your thoughts, process what is going on, and arrive rather leisurely. At 135 things happen hella fast and given ANY reasonable way of doing 90 that's what I'd suggest.

Don't worry about how to do the Fisk transition. Just stay on the clown in front of you back bumper and if he screws up, so do you. It will all work out.

Again, I say if you can do 90, do it. The question was asked and not answered ... what are you flying?

Jim
.
.
 
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Ron Levy said:
If (as I believe it reads) it only suggests (e.g., "should" or "recommended"), rather than requires (e.g., "shall" or "must") lowering the gear at RIPON, then you should be fine that way. So what is the exact wording on that point in the NOTAM?
Click to expand...

From the website:

Retractable gear aircraft

If you are flying a retractable gear aircraft, ensure that you extend your gear as soon as feasible!

The controllers at Fisk get anxious if they see an aircraft passing overhead Fisk without the landing gear down. Approaching Fisk may be a good time to "drop the gear" if you have not already done so!

but the NOTAM says

If possible, lower your landing gear prior
to reaching Fisk.

So I stand corrected it doesn't say I have to.
 
weirdjim said:
According to my logbook, I've done the Ripon approach 24 times. The first two years I was there, there was no "arrival" procedure and it really got ... um ... interesting. The tower tape is available and I think I've got a copy of what they called "Fantastic Friday". It was a frikkin zoo.

Anyway, 23 of the 24 were done at 90 and I got up the nerve to cram the levers forward one year for the 135 thing. I will tell you that 90 gives you the time to collect your thoughts, process what is going on, and arrive rather leisurely. At 135 things happen hella fast and given ANY reasonable way of doing 90 that's what I'd suggest.

Don't worry about how to do the Fisk transition. Just stay on the clown in front of you back bumper and if he screws up, so do you. It will all work out.

Again, I say if you can do 90, do it. The question was asked and not answered ... what are you flying?

Jim
.
.
Click to expand...

I've heard about this "Fantastic Friday" recording before but can't find it. Does anyone have a link to it?
 
I thought in your other post you said it's a PA-28-235 (well actually you said it is a Cherokee 236 which doesn't exist). There's no reason for you not to fly 90 knots on the RIPON-TRANSITION. Your stall steed is down around 60 (clean). Plenty of margin.

I've flown the RIPON arrival more than almost anybody here in the past three years. I hop maybe a dozen rides plus a couple of flyouts during the show. I mix it up between the Warbird arrival and the Ripon arrival. Believe me, it works better if you can get in line at 90, rather than blasting over the top at 135. Just because your plane can go that fast doesn't make it right. Save that for the twins or other odd-balls who need it.

I've also stood out at Fisk with the controllers and up in the tower as well during the show. I've seen the arrivals from both sides.
 
flyingron said:
I thought in your other post you said it's a PA-28-235 (well actually you said it is a Cherokee 236 which doesn't exist). There's no reason for you not to fly 90 knots on the RIPON-TRANSITION. Your stall steed is down around 60 (clean). Plenty of margin.

I've flown the RIPON arrival more than almost anybody here in the past three years. I hop maybe a dozen rides plus a couple of flyouts during the show. I mix it up between the Warbird arrival and the Ripon arrival. Believe me, it works better if you can get in line at 90, rather than blasting over the top at 135. Just because your plane can go that fast doesn't make it right. Save that for the twins or other odd-balls who need it.

I've also stood out at Fisk with the controllers and up in the tower as well during the show. I've seen the arrivals from both sides.
Click to expand...
You have the OP and someone else mixed up.
 
Hawka said:
So you've done the 135 knot arrival? How soon after Ripon did you start descending? Did ATC tell you when to descend? There are no videos of the higher arrival anywhere so no examples.
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I start descending when appropriate for the landing spot assigned. Last time they had me land long on the N bound right runway/taxiway so I didn't start descent until 1/2 mile final. ATC leaves it up to you when to descend.
 
flyingron said:
I thought in your other post you said it's a PA-28-235 (well actually you said it is a Cherokee 236 which doesn't exist). There's no reason for you not to fly 90 knots on the RIPON-TRANSITION. Your stall steed is down around 60 (clean). Plenty of margin.

I've flown the RIPON arrival more than almost anybody here in the past three years. I hop maybe a dozen rides plus a couple of flyouts during the show. I mix it up between the Warbird arrival and the Ripon arrival. Believe me, it works better if you can get in line at 90, rather than blasting over the top at 135. Just because your plane can go that fast doesn't make it right. Save that for the twins or other odd-balls who need it.

I've also stood out at Fisk with the controllers and up in the tower as well during the show. I've seen the arrivals from both sides.
Click to expand...

There is I think 1 or 2 people posting under 3 or 4 names.
I can only vouch for Hulk. I have met him in real life and he is a decent guy (I have to say that or he will crush me. He is a monster)
 
steingar said:
How much runway is the OP going to chew up if his airplane can't even fly at 90 knots? Most days they're landing between the dots and you only have about 1500 feet or so.
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I've never had less than 4000' to land on.:confused:
 
I know I've got an original cassette of FF, because about 8 minutes into the tape, I'm the "red and white Cessna taildragger..." in the old 170.

Jim
 
weirdjim said:
I know I've got an original cassette of FF, because about 8 minutes into the tape, I'm the "red and white Cessna taildragger..." in the old 170.

Jim
Click to expand...

Yep, just heard your landing clearance :D
 
Henning said:
Why would you put your gear down at Rippon? I don't put my gear down until I'm turning final.
Click to expand...

They like it when you drop gear prior to Fisk... Otherwise the controllers start getting nervous and waste radio time telling you to do it.
 
Henning said:
I start descending when appropriate for the landing spot assigned. Last time they had me land long on the N bound right runway/taxiway so I didn't start descent until 1/2 mile final. ATC leaves it up to you when to descend.
Click to expand...

The exception is that the NOTAM tells you to begin descent on the downwind turn when you follow Fisk Ave to 18, otherwise if you start descending abeam the dot like you would on a normal pattern you'll end up way high and overshooting your landing spot, if not the runway.
 
OK, I found the file, but it is about 6 MB and the limit on here is a little less than 5. I'm happy to post it, but anybody got a clue how to reduce the file size even if the audio isn't quite as crisp?

Jim
.
.
 
weirdjim said:
OK, I found the file, but it is about 6 MB and the limit on here is a little less than 5. I'm happy to post it, but anybody got a clue how to reduce the file size even if the audio isn't quite as crisp?

Jim
.
.
Click to expand...

See the link I posted a few posts back. You can stream it. No download necessary.
 
even in a baron I hang out the flaps and do the lower 90 kt arrival. The problem with the 135kt is that at some point you have to descend into the herd with no downward visibility. I'd rather be a part of the herd from the start.
 
Very cool thank you for the link and audio file of that!!!! Incredible.
 
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