Optimal timing for BATD hours during IFR rating

Discussion in 'Cleared for the Approach' started by samiamPA, Oct 26, 2020.

  1. samiamPA

    samiamPA Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I've decided to take advantage of a local BATD for the 10 allowable hours towards my IFR rating. I want to use the full 10 because everyone complains about how they do not behave like airplanes, so I assume that some portion of that will just be acclimating to the sim.

    My question is when you all think it would be best to use these 10 hours:
    -Frontloaded - i.e. in the first 20 hours of the rating, to reinforce the scan
    -Evenly spaced throughout the rating - to reinforce what is learned in the airplane
    -Towards the end - to focus on refinement of already learned procedures

    FYI, this sim time will be done with a different instructor than my airplane instructor. I'm leaning towards frontloading it, hoping it will refine my scan.

    Any recommendations on how to maximize the utility of this time are greatly appreciated.
     
  2. Rgbeard

    Rgbeard En-Route

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    I did twenty hours, as the ATD I used was able for such.

    I did it back-ended. To focus on refinement of already learned procedures, but I also, unavoidably reinforced my scan.
     
  3. TommyG

    TommyG Pattern Altitude

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    No rule says it all has to be done in one phase of the training. Do five for the Basic attitude flying, 5 for approaches.
     
  4. smv

    smv Pattern Altitude

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    Assuming the sim replicates the aircraft faithfully, use the sim to develop the routine and procedures for a specific task, then go fly that task in the aircraft. Do not be concerned about the actual amount of time spent in the sim (log it all, of course, providing your CFII is there) because it will reduce the time you spend burning $5/ga AVGas.
     
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  5. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Use it up front to reinforce scan. Use it in the middle to reinforce procedures. Use it at the end for review. Log anything that’s legal, and don’t worry about the numbers until it’s time to worry about the numbers, then use what’s appropriate.
     
  6. jordane93

    jordane93 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Evenly spaced. Use it for everything. Basic attitude flying, pattern A and B, holds, approaches, emergency procedures, etc.
     
  7. smv

    smv Pattern Altitude

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    Yah this... Nothing says you cannot log more than 10 hours in a BATD, you just cannot count more than 10 of those hours toward the experience needed to apply for the ticket.
     
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  8. TCABM

    TCABM En-Route

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    I feel even the full motion sims are, at best, procedural trainers. IRA is procedural in nature and a good fit for reinforcing all aspects of the training, up to going visual.

    Using different instructors who aren’t in lock step with how you use the BATD to learn or reinforce what you’ve learned can be problematic; I’d want them to be on the same page to support my training progression.
     
  9. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I agree with those who suggest multiple phases. My standard line about instrument training is that it's less than 20% about flying the airplane and more than 80% about rules and pricedures.

    At the early stages, it can be instrumental in that small but extremely important 20% - helping to develop a reliable and sustainable scan needed for instrument flight. Later, it is the most efficient way to be exposed to multiple types of procedures, some of which might not even be available in your area, as well as more realistic failure modes.
     
  10. write-stuff

    write-stuff En-Route

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    I usually use the sim for the a couple of hours for basic attitudes, then a lesson or two in the airplane.
    Then we're back in the sim for 4-6 hours. After that, the majority of time will be in the air.
     
  11. midwestpa24

    midwestpa24 En-Route

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    There is one thing that sims can do that can't be done in a real airplane, simulate a vacuum system failure. In a real airplane the instructor covers the instruments and boom you have a vacuum failure. In a real situation, you would have to detect the failure, then be able to ignore the incorrect instruments unless you had a way to cover them. Detecting and identifying the failed instrument is the key, but hard to simulate in an actual airplane.
     
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  12. write-stuff

    write-stuff En-Route

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    Yep, sims aren't for everything. But they are excellent for practicing and mastering procedures.
     
  13. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I would argue that if you have a good scan and truly understand what each instrument is telling you, detecting failed instruments is fairly easy, even without having airplane or simulator training in doing so.
     
  14. midwestpa24

    midwestpa24 En-Route

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    The danger is in slowly failing instruments, they can be insidious. Imagine you are solid IMC. You AI starts indicating a slight bank while your DG is indicating a small turn. The Turn Coordinator is indicating the opposite, and you inner ear is screaming something doesn't feel right. There have been numerous accidents caused by gradual instrument failures triggered that helmet fire while you are trying to figure which instrument is lying while your inner gyro is tumbling. Its not as easy as you think, and there are accidents that have proven it, of even air transport aircraft.
     
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  15. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I don’t have to imagine it, and what you described IS as easy as I think, although I haven’t experienced the screaming vertigo part since my commercial training (pre-instrument rating).

    I’d also have to believe that there are many successful outcomes that are never reported in addition to the couple that I’ve had.

    But most instructors don’t seem to prioritize a good scan and instrument interpretation skills. They just want to get into the glamour of approaches.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2020
  16. jayhawk74

    jayhawk74 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I recently taught instruments at a flight school and we used the ATD for all phases. Additionally we used it for much more than 10 hours. While the time wasn't loggable it was less expensive for the student and also a better way to teach than in the aircraft.
     
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  17. Tim Taylor

    Tim Taylor Pre-Flight

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    I used mine at the front end for scan development and learning how to read a chart. Since I was doing so without having the Georeferenced chart on ForeFlight, once I was able to do that already, it was so much easier.

    I plan on using it regularly to maintain my currency.
     
  18. SbestCFII

    SbestCFII Line Up and Wait

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    Focus Scanning and procedural practice. Most issues are the result of a faulty scan.
     
  19. Larry in TN

    Larry in TN En-Route

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    Use the BATD to learn the procedures, each step of the way. Learn each procedure in the BATD before you do it in the airplane with the distractions, turbulence, interruptions, etc. and higher costs. To do this effectively, you need a CFII who is onboard and knows how to use the BATD to its best benefit. If done right, you'll save yourself a lot of cost and frustration trying to learn how to do it in the airplane. Learn it first, then fly it.