Older small copters - seem like fun - but nearly nonexistent?

Rgbeard

Rgbeard

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rgbeard
Disclaimer: I'm not a rotary-wing guy, and know nearly as little of the subject as is possible while still being in the PILOT category.

When I watch an episode of M*A*S*H, I see the cool little Bell helicopters. I think it's universally acknowledged that they're a model 47 with exceptions here and there.

Those simply look like a hoot.

  • Simple framework.
  • Simple engine.
  • Not a terrible number of parts to my, albeit, untrained eye.

Why don't these things "exist" anymore. We see 70-year old airplanes flying around with some regularity. Why don't we see the occasional 195x Bell landing at the home drome?

Is there some critical piece that's, essentially, unobtainable?
Is there a life-limit on a component that dooms these to the scrapyard?
Is maintenance a nightmare dooming them?

Again, I know nearly zip. They just look fun and affordable(*)

(*) yeah, yeah. ... I know.....
 
There are Bell 47's doing crop dusting in MN.
There is one around here with the Soloy conversion.
 
Rgbeard said:
  • Simple framework.
  • Simple engine.
  • Not a terrible number of parts to my, albeit, untrained eye.
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I think the answer lurks somewhere among the options you presented. Helicopters do require a lot of maintenance, and small size of the helos pretty much eliminates them from having a viable purpose in the commercial or general aviation areas. But I have no facts to back up this up. So...:dunno:

-Skip
 
Rgbeard said:
Why don't these things "exist" anymore. We see 70-year old airplanes flying around with some regularity. Why don't we see the occasional 195x Bell landing at the home drome?
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They exist you just need to put it into perspective. In general, helicopters have always numbered less than 10% of the entire GA fleet. So there never were really a lot to begin with. A second consideration is that the majority of those "antique" helicopters are still earning a living vs being a weekend warrior machine. So they tend not to show up at a pancake or $100 burger runs. Plus after the Robbie R22s hit the market all those previous "mainstream" models like the Bell 47, Enstroms, Fairchilds, etc. lost their niche in the training department and caused everyone one sell the TC. For example, Scott Helicopters bought the Bell 47 TC a few ago from Bell, Enstrom just folded again after its 4th or 5th acquisition, and so on. But there still is a solid fleet of these older models regularly flying worldwide. Parts have become a issue for some models to include some newer ones, but there always seems to enough parts to keep the ones flying, flying. Perhaps you just need to get out more and expand your horizons a bit. I see helicopters (new and old) all the time.;)
 
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They exist, but perhaps not in the circles you stick to. Which isn't surprising considering the overall ratio of helicopters to airplanes. The ratio of airplane to helicopter threads on PoA is also reflective of the size of each group.

I am flying and maintaining a 1948 Bell 47 and it's far from the oldest serial number currently listed in the FAA registry. I'd guess there are close to a dozen others within a 30 mile radius of me as well. Of course not all of them are as old.
 
asicer said:
1700/6632? What's the C172 ratio? Bo?
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Cessna 172 is ~21,000/44,000.

There were about 1200 Bell 47s on the US Registry in 2010, it was down to less than 500 as of January 1st.

Ron Wanttaja
 
Rgbeard said:
Why don't these things "exist" anymore. We see 70-year old airplanes flying around with some regularity. Why don't we see the occasional 195x Bell landing at the home drome?
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The old "Where are all the antique helicopter fly-in's?" Thread.

I'd tell you it is because helicopters are complex, expensive to operate, and you can't sell them to your spouse as a fast ticket to the beach.
 
As an old timer (83, still holds a 2nd class med) told me awhile back while wrenching on a Tripacer...

"Helicopters wreck too often to ever make it to be antiques" :devil:
 
Helicopters have a lot of moving parts. Those rotor systems, both main and tail, are considerably more complex than it appears to most people. And those parts have specified life times.
 
kyleb said:
you can't sell them to your spouse as a fast ticket to the beach.
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Depends on who you marry. I know several where a helicopter was bought solely to get to the cabin, camp, or beach in a timely manner.;)
Todd82 said:
Helicopters wreck too often to ever make it to be antiques
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Ha. All things equal you'll find in some charts helicopters wreck more and in other charts privately owner GA airplanes wreck more. So it depends who is making the list.
Dan Thomas said:
And those parts have specified life times
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FYI: It depends on the model what items have a life limit or on condition. For example, wooden Bell 47 M/R blades have an unlimited life.
 
mondtster said:
They exist, but perhaps not in the circles you stick to. Which isn't surprising considering the overall ratio of helicopters to airplanes. The ratio of airplane to helicopter threads on PoA is also reflective of the size of each group.

I am flying and maintaining a 1948 Bell 47 and it's far from the oldest serial number currently listed in the FAA registry. I'd guess there are close to a dozen others within a 30 mile radius of me as well. Of course not all of them are as old.
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So.... what's the all in hourly cost to operate a bell 47?

Seems like a good way to get from home to the airport :D
 
The standard Medical evacuation helicopter in the Korean War was the Hiller UH-23. There weren't a huge number of them and after the war, they served at the US Army Aviation Center as utility and instrument trainers.

Because of their impressive power to weight ratio, they have been the top choice for ag aerial application. If you don't see too many of them, it's because you don't hang out with the cropduster guys...

The good news is that the Hiller UH-12E is being built again in California. They will be equipped with both an uprated piston engine and a turbine.

I saw one for sale for $130,000 and it was in great shape with lots of hours on it. Of course, it's a 1963 C model, but hey, that makes it cool!
 
The bubble-Bell…

IIRC they’re said to be a challenging helo to fly, as they lack a governor. I’d probably wad one up, so I’ll stay away. ;)
 
Jim K said:
So.... what's the all in hourly cost to operate a bell 47?

Seems like a good way to get from home to the airport :D
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I really don’t know an exact hourly cost. It’s not cheap, but not that bad either. The insurance threads and what people consider to be “expensive” policies on an airplane may start to look reasonable though.

Once the weather gets nicer maybe I'll fly it to a midwest PoA meeting if it isn't too far away and you could check it out.
 
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Was half thinking of looking into training but don't even know where to start outside of military.
 
Racerx said:
Was half thinking of looking into training but don't even know where to start outside of military.
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Yeah training is the big problem. I believe there's a guy at mto that does it, but the costs are the bigger issue. Especially if you're uncoordinated like me. It'd probably take me 30 hours to hover. I'd love to do it some day though if I ever wind up with more money than I know what to do with. I certainly never thought I'd own an airplane, so stranger things have happened.
 
My buddy always wanted to fly choppers. I though maybe in my (now fictitious) retirement we'd build a kit chopper. Then I saw the prices on those things.
 
Bell206 said:
Depends on who you marry. I know several where a helicopter was bought solely to get to the cabin, camp, or beach in a timely manner.;)
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There's a guy here who has an R44, he and his wife regularly fly it 288nm each way to Destin, nice and low enjoying the view.
 
Racerx said:
Was half thinking of looking into training but don't even know where to start outside of military.
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We have an RW guy locally with R-44 and Bell 47. To give you an idea of what he advertises:
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http://www.helicopterexperts.com/

Charter work starts and $800/hr and tours run from $99 to $750/person.
 
Bell206 said:
FYI: It depends on the model what items have a life limit or on condition. For example, wooden Bell 47 M/R blades have an unlimited life.
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Yeah, I knew that. But how many wooden blades are still in service? As the owner of a wooden airplane I was acutely conscious of the risk of decay and UV damage.
 
Jim K said:
what's the all in hourly cost to operate a bell 47?
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Last I checked an "all in" cost with insurance, fuel, etc. was around $700 to $900 per hour. Maintenance reserve cost made up $250 of that. But it is very specific to how many hours flown per year and what specific model you have: D, G, etc. For comparison an R22 which is basically the cheapest TC machine to operate is in the $400 to $600 per hour all-in and around $145 to $170 mx reserve per hour.
RyanB said:
they’re said to be a challenging helo to fly, as they lack a governor.
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Lack of a governor makes you a better pilot in my opinion. In fixed-wing airspeed is your concern and in rotor-wing RPM is your concern. By manually controlling the M/R RPM you learn to adjust throttle by sound alone vs letting a governor do it for you. Regardless a number of helicopters have a correlator/anticipator that mechanically links the throttle linkage to the collective linkage giving you some limited RPM adjustments with no input from you on the throttle. Plus some "newer" models offer an electric RPM governor as an option. All turbine helicopters do have a true governor though.
Racerx said:
Was half thinking of looking into training but don't even know where to start outside of military.
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Just need to look around. Using an R22 vs a Bell 47 will be cheaper as is getting your rating as an add-on. Just about all training schools offer a discovery flight at a reasonable cost and its well worth your time to fly one and see if the bug bites you.
 
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Dan Thomas said:
But how many wooden blades are still in service?
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I dont have exact numbers but quite a few statistically. Even brand new Kaman KMAXs come with Sitka spruce spars in the M/R blades.
 
There used to be a 47 that did tours around Destin, FL years (15+) ago. Great view with the doors off and amazing visibility out the front. Long replaced by a more commercial operation and a fleet of R44s and 66s.

Then there was one at the USS Alabama in Mobile, AL for a while (~10 years ago) - not sure if it still there.
 
Soon we'll have electric!

But almost being serious for a second - I think a short range, one or two person helicopter type vehicle (very large drone?) would be an easier, quicker path for electric propulsion vs fixed wing aircraft. I know nothing bout rotor aircraft BTW - just speculating.
 
WDD said:
I think a short range, one or two person helicopter type vehicle (very large drone?) would be an easier, quicker path for electric propulsion vs fixed wing aircraft.
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FYI: these drone people movers have been flying for several years now. One can pick one up now for about $100k out of Sweden. Google Jetson ONE. There's a lot of money being spent to take them to the next level as well as on the regulatory side. Will be interesting.
 
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Bell206 said:
about $100k
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these prices are always astounding to me


^doubt that dude spent $100K. Granted, it's missing the fancy body kit, but you can pick that crap up at Autozone for a couple hundred

I speak in jest (mostly). The Jetson ONE is cool though, I've been following that project come along. There could be real world applications to this that go beyond a fun toy for the rich..
 
Tantalum said:
There could be real world applications to this that go beyond a fun toy for the rich..
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Definitely beyond rich toy level. There are over 2 dozen programs that I've followed through a consultant I work with on occasion. The ones actually getting built and bought fit within the ultralight rules and usually sell out their production slots when offered. Just like 90" TVs were $20k several years ago, your personal drone costs are slated to drop considerably in the same time frame supposedly. If you want to know why there's zero investment in GA just look at these. I follow these programs simply to see what route they'll take once the bigger ones grow out of the ultralight vehicle classification.
 
We've got a 47 flying over at 14A. John drops over at our place from time to time. There's a spot between my house and the runway he tucks it into during the flyins.
 
Tantalum said:
these prices are always astounding to me


^doubt that dude spent $100K. Granted, it's missing the fancy body kit, but you can pick that crap up at Autozone for a couple hundred

I speak in jest (mostly). The Jetson ONE is cool though, I've been following that project come along. There could be real world applications to this that go beyond a fun toy for the rich..
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20 min flight time is a bit of a buzzkill. Max pilot weight of 210lbs cuts out the Trump's of the world.

The mosquito ultralight chopper still looks like a riot to me
 
Would be cool to see a 2 hour two person electric version something on the size of the “MASH” Bells.

Somehow land and swap battery packs. Have a few charging at a time, just like RC planes and drones.

Have no idea how that would work.
 
WDD said:
swap battery packs
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I am surprised this didn't become a thing with cars, etc. I have a couple battery packs for tools, makes it easy to swap them in and out. IF you standardized the sizes you could drive into a "gas station" and some mechanism in the floor could swap out the offending pack - plug and play of sorts.
 
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Tantalum said:
I am surprised this didn't become a thing with cars, etc. I have a couple battery packs for tools, makes it easy to swap them in and out. IF you standardized the sizes you could drive into a "gas station" and some mechanism in the floor could swap out the offending pack - plug and play of sorts.
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If you’ve ever swapped batteries on a forklift you’ll begin to understand that it isn’t the most practical thing to do in an application like this.
 
WDD said:
Would be cool to see a 2 hour two person electric version something on the size of the “MASH” Bells.
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These are probably the 3 companies that are closest to that level. One is supposed to start limited commercial use later this year. But once the global regulatory side collectively decides which direction they want to take on this new technology, I think you'll see this industry explode. However, I wish I knew who was closest to an ambient temp super conductor as that is who is going to make the trillions/buzzillions off electric power anything.
https://www.volocopter.com/
https://www.autoflight.com/en/
https://www.ehang.com/ehangaav/
 
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