Old Mountain West Sectional

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by midlifeflyer, Feb 7, 2019.

  1. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    9,161
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    I'm looking for a scan, photo or hardcopy of a sectional old enough to still have a decent Class G to 14,500 area. It's for an article.
     
  2. Pilawt

    Pilawt Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2005
    Messages:
    6,755
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Pilawt
    These are from the Los Angeles Sectional 5th Edition (1969). Let me know if you need high-res versions.

    Class G 1200.jpeg
    Class G 1 1200.jpeg
     
    Eric Stoltz, benyflyguy and eman1200 like this.
  3. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    9,161
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    Fabulous! Thanks Jeff. It's for print and not a large sample, but high res would be appreciated. What's the best way for you to get it to me?
     
  4. Pilawt

    Pilawt Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2005
    Messages:
    6,755
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Pilawt
    Glad to help. Give me about 15 minutes and I'll PM you Dropbox links.
     
    timwinters likes this.
  5. G-Man

    G-Man Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2012
    Messages:
    740
    Location:
    Boulder, CO
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    AirmanG
    I'll say it again - Jeff (Pilawt) is an amazingly helpful, well-informed, and extensive resource. Wow. This is a man who should never have to pay for his own drinks.
     
  6. kgruber

    kgruber En-Route

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2007
    Messages:
    3,672
    Location:
    M94 Airport Manager
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Skywag
    Jeff is a human aviation encyclopedia.
     
    GRG55 and Walboy like this.
  7. timwinters

    timwinters Ejection Handle Pulled PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2008
    Messages:
    12,714
    Location:
    Conway, MO
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    LTD
    No doubt about that one!
     
  8. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2005
    Messages:
    21,341
    Location:
    Michigan
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ed Frederick
    There's currently a bunch of class G airspace in the Big Bend area of Texas
     
  9. benyflyguy

    benyflyguy Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2018
    Messages:
    1,249
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    benyflyguy
    If something needs to be referenced from an eon ago @Pilawt is there.
    If someone needs a sales flyer for a 1952 Cessna 195 @Pilawt is there.
    You are the Superman aviation materials. How do you have all this stuff???
     
  10. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2015
    Messages:
    5,772
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Aztec Flyer
    More important, where do you keep all this stuff?
     
    murphey likes this.
  11. asicer

    asicer En-Route

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2015
    Messages:
    3,196
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    asicer
    It's not just the materials but the stuff in his head as well. I still remember that thread asking how to tell whether a plane is a 172 or if it is a 182. Wave after wave of wrong answers came up and Jeff dutifully shot each one down. After a while, I lost count how many times he jumped in with counterexamples.
     
    benyflyguy likes this.
  12. Pilawt

    Pilawt Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2005
    Messages:
    6,755
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Pilawt
    Oh, just a few old books lying around ...

    [​IMG]
     
    murphey, kgruber, benyflyguy and 3 others like this.
  13. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2015
    Messages:
    5,772
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Aztec Flyer
    PoA fly-in meet up and party in @Pilawt's aviation library! You don't happen to have any Celine sheet music in that collection, do you?
     
  14. idahoflier

    idahoflier Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2017
    Messages:
    466
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    idahoflier
    skyvector.com
     
  15. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    9,161
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    Where do they keep the 20-year old charts?
     
  16. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    9,161
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    I finally had a chance to look at that. Thanks.
     
  17. idahoflier

    idahoflier Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2017
    Messages:
    466
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    idahoflier
    Sorry, I didn't know your requirement was for a 20 year old chart...
     
  18. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    9,161
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    Sorry. It didn't have to be 20 years old. But it had to be old enough to have a decent amount of Class G above 1200 AGL. There used to be a lot of it in the inter-mountain west but with the way Class G has disappeared over the years, that meant a chart substantially older than the current ones SkyVector puts out there. The one @EdFred pointed out near the Mexico border is one of the few exceptions. There's a piece of Alaska which also has some, but there's nothing to go to there. If you can point to some on SkyVector, that would be great.
     
  19. DutchRoller

    DutchRoller Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2017
    Messages:
    395
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    DutchRoller
    Maybe the library of congress or national archives in DC.
     
  20. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    9,161
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    @Pilawt got me what I was looking for and the current one @EdFred pointed me to is a contender.

    So there's no mystery, it's an article on a subject we've discussed a number of times through the years — IFR flight in Class G airspace where an instrument rating and currency are required, but an IFR flight plan and an IFR clearance are not. The graphic is just for an example of a place where it might have been feasible at one time.
     
  21. idahoflier

    idahoflier Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2017
    Messages:
    466
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    idahoflier
    @midlifeflyer OK, I get it. I'm used to seeing a lot of Class G around me (Idaho). There are a few places where someone could do the topic of your article...
     
  22. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    9,161
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    I'd use Idaho if it still had Class G above 1200 AGL. Actually above 2000 AGL since much of it is mountainous. If there is some, I missed it. Can you point out where?
     
  23. ejensen

    ejensen Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    2,359
    Location:
    Fort Collins, CO
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Eric Jensen
    What airspace are you in flying 500' over Denali?
     
  24. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    9,161
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    Class G but IFR you'd have to be at least 2000' above Denali. Unless, I guess you were taking off from or landing on it.
     
  25. ejensen

    ejensen Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    2,359
    Location:
    Fort Collins, CO
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Eric Jensen
    Just one of those interesting places where things get different. All class A above 18000? nope you can be VFR (or IFR in class G)
     
  26. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    9,161
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    The IFR regs require at least 2000 AGL in mountainous terrain. 91.177.
     
  27. idahoflier

    idahoflier Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2017
    Messages:
    466
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    idahoflier
    Excluding the Victor Airways would this not depict Class G airspace?
     

    Attached Files:

  28. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    9,161
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    No. Take a look at the Sectional legend. Basically all US airspace on the Sectional is Class E above 1200 AGL except where shown insude the "hard" line of a blue vignette. For an example, there's the area EdFred pointed out
    upload_2019-2-8_17-6-17.jpeg
     
  29. ejensen

    ejensen Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    2,359
    Location:
    Fort Collins, CO
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Eric Jensen
    Yep, thanks.
     
  30. idahoflier

    idahoflier Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2017
    Messages:
    466
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    idahoflier
    OK, I stand corrected. I didn't realize Class G above 1200' has all but vanished!

    I guess you can use the low altitude enroute chart to see it all...
     

    Attached Files:

    • us.png
      us.png
      File size:
      1.4 MB
      Views:
      8
  31. Pilawt

    Pilawt Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2005
    Messages:
    6,755
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Pilawt
    Those swatches of G in southwestern Arizona are almost (but not quite) entirely in 24/7, surface-to-the-moon restricted areas; and the one in eastern Arizona is mostly within a MOA.
     
  32. idahoflier

    idahoflier Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2017
    Messages:
    466
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    idahoflier
    As long as I'm getting schooled, what is this airspace east of the Grand Canyon? Class G? It's depicted as Class E on the low altitude enroute chart.
     

    Attached Files:

    • gc.png
      gc.png
      File size:
      1.6 MB
      Views:
      14
  33. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    9,161
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    Go to the sectional and scroll down a little. There's a box explaining it's the Grand Canyon Special Flight Rules Area. That what the connect-the-little boxes border signifies - also depicted on the Sectional legend.

    Oh, you're talking about that boomerang shaped narrow sliver? It's a narrow sliver of Class G. The vignette is supposed to be blue but comes out grayish in some charts.
     
  34. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    9,161
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    BTW, if you think it's weird, it is. My best guess is that, since this is all regulatory and defined by the aviation equivalent of metes and bounds, it is the result of bad calculations.
     
    flyingcheesehead and Eric Stoltz like this.
  35. Pilawt

    Pilawt Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2005
    Messages:
    6,755
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Pilawt
    That sliver runs right along the boundary between ZLA and ZDV Centers. So I think Mark's guess of bad calculations in the boundary descriptions is correct. There are more than a few zigs and zags in state boundaries for the same reason.

    The sliver is a mile wide at most -- it would be quite a trick to stay legal in IMC for the length of it. :D

    Screen Shot 2019-02-08 at 5.37.24 PM.png
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019
  36. idahoflier

    idahoflier Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2017
    Messages:
    466
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    idahoflier
    Yes, that's the area I was referring to. It is strange. With so little Class G above 1200 AGL (and a large portion restricted as Pilawt noted) I wonder why there is any left at all?
     
  37. Ghery

    Ghery Final Approach

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2005
    Messages:
    9,441
    Location:
    Olympia, Washington
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ghery Pettit
    I have the Seattle sectional dating back to around 2000 and I know the older ones have G space well above 1200 AGL on them. I won't be able to get them and scan that area until Wednesday of next week, however.
     
  38. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    9,161
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    Thank you. I'd be interested, Ghery. The article isn't due until the end of the month and the specific route is a small enough part that I can make changes easily. I'm really just trying to get the "cleanest" one I can. Even a current leftover "zipper" Class G might work, but I figure I'll see more possibilities with an older chart.
     
  39. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    9,161
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    Largely due to regulatory requirements (See FAR Part 73 and the FAA Order 7400.11 series ferinstance). The default is uncontrolled. The FAA goes through the regulatory process when creating, modifying, removing areas of controlled airspace. There is supposed to be a traffic and safety rationale. If you think of "controlled airspace" as airspace in which ATC has the authority to control traffic, and the basic idea that government interference should be minimal (yeah, I know), you can get a picture of the reason why this is the case.

    So it's been done piecemeal through the years. There are leftovers although they get fewer and fewer. At some point, I expect there will be a final "cleanup" to get rid of the rest, except perhaps in some special use areas.
     
  40. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Messages:
    5,637
    Location:
    Vancouver, WA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Luvflyin
    The current, 11 OCT 2018-25 APR 2019 Phoenix Sectional has a piece. Look a ways Northwest of BZA (Yuma). It's not really there, a Chart Supplement has done away with it, but it still shows on a current Chart. There's some East of BZA also