NORDO - Wrong runway

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by MarcoDA40, Mar 12, 2019.

  1. Lachlan

    Lachlan En-Route

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    But how many pilots out there are extremely good at estimating distances like that? And how many are stationary after that specific distance announcement? By the time you even start scanning 5 miles north, they’re gone from there. Also, I have flown out of KAPA soooooo many times and heard the tower tell aircraft to “report over IKEA.” Never once, ever, heard a hardass pilot tell the tower “unable, because IKEA ain’t on the chart.” ;) Just sayin, because there ain’t no place on a chart designated as “5 miles north,” either. ;) Think about it.
     
  2. Lindberg

    Lindberg En-Route

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    Wrong. See and avoid is not just another tool in the toolbox, it's the rule! If I'm warned of traffic and I don't see him, I'm not going to rely on the radio or "fish finder" to prevent a collision, I'm going to rely on my eyes and my ability to be somewhere else.
     
  3. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    I don’t get my undies in a twist about the ones who don’t talk on it so much as the ones who don’t listen on it.

    I was doing touch and goes, making position reports, with a couple other airplanes one day, and when somebody new joined in, the instructor in one of the other airplanes warned him about the “red and white NORDO taildragger” in the pattern (me). For the remainder of the pattern work, I identified myself in position reports as “NORDO taildragger”. I heard through the grapevine that the instructor was quite offended at that. :rolleyes:
     
  4. Ravioli

    Ravioli Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    "catch a NORDO by the tail, if it hollers let it go"?
     
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  5. Ghery

    Ghery Final Approach

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    The other question that I haven't seen "answered" here relates to the OP and the suggestion that he not take off if he had seen the Bo on short final while he was still on the ground. So, now what does he do? He's on the runway, he can't take off because landing traffic has the right of way once he's airborne, he has the right of way at this instant because he's on the runway and the Bo isn't, but the Bo will hit him if he (the Bo) continues his approach and lands without seeing the OP already on the runway. I know what I'd do if necessary - close the throttle and head for the weeds as that will hurt less than a head-on collision. NORDO or no-NORDO, it's an uncontrolled field. The use of a radio isn't required and the Bo either wasn't using one, or was on the wrong frequency. So, again, what "should" the OP have done if he had seen the Bo prior to doing the "Go" of the T&G?
     
  6. Sundancer

    Sundancer En-Route

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    Heard similar stories for years, and probably most of us have encountered a "local" procedure "everyone knows"; I witnessed two ladies shut down an ass-chewing at KANP (Annapolis MD) some years back - they we're in from CA, in a Cardinal, and had done/omitted/missed something the local said "everyone knows" - she told him put it in the AFD or a NOTAM. Or F**k off. Said she had failed Mind Reading 101 and wasn't going to re-take the class. And clearly, "everyone" didn't know it, so he was full of it.
     
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  7. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    “If I’m warned”.... How would you be warned without a radio? By that logic, you must always assume there’s an aircraft you do not see.
     
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  8. UngaWunga

    UngaWunga Cleared for Takeoff

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    Wow... that devolved fast... :rollercoaster:


    Doesn't common sense dictate that you should generally land in the same direction of other aircraft at a single runway airfield? And that if you don't know what the direction in use is, you should get some altitude and fly over to see what others are using? That's what I did when learning in the Cub.
     
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  9. Lachlan

    Lachlan En-Route

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    Zoom climb.
     
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  10. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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    Common sense isn't some thing shared by all pilots.
     
  11. Zeldman

    Zeldman Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I am surprised this guy hasn't been mentioned yet....

    [​IMG]
     
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  12. Lindberg

    Lindberg En-Route

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    Correct. Assuming that will contribute to your longevity. Assuming the opposite will detract.

    And since you read my post, I presume you read the quoted post as well. The offense of that post was that the pilot was told of another plane he didn't see.
     
  13. Banjo33

    Banjo33 Line Up and Wait

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    Constant bearing/collision bearing, decreasing range is difficult to pick up visually without knowing where to look and that’s the plane you’re going to run into....no lateral motion, just a speck on the windshield/wing strut/canopy bow rapidly getting bigger. Think running into the rear end of a stopped car on the interstate. Lateral motion is easiest to detect visually and the one most people are looking for in the pattern, but that’s not necessarily the one you should worry about as you’re not going to run into it, at least until one of you starts turning and puts the other on collision bearing.

    Just saw a vid of a T-28 landing (into the sun) right behind and, ultimately running into, a -150, followed by a massive fire ball and one pilot dead. I don’t know the details, but can’t help but wonder if they were both talking, because see and avoid didn’t save them. Had an acquaintance (Navy pilot in a jet) kill himself after cutting out his interval in the landing pattern (tower told him to turn downwind), recognized it late, and yanked the stick aft and away to avoid collision. Stall/spin from 600’ agl.

    I get that there are airplanes with no installed radio, but you can count me as one of the group that struggles with justifying intentional NORDO ops at a public airport with so many affordable hand held options available. Seems pretty irresponsible to me.
     
  14. Duster

    Duster Pre-Flight

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    If you need to talk on a radio to safely operate an aircraft in class E or G airspace, you are the danger!

    Somehow, I fly 1200+ hours a year rarely talking on the radio without crashing, but they keep getting my lottery ticket numbers wrong, so it can't be luck!

    Skills are skills, flying in controlled airspace under the supervision of ATC is great. Flying in E and G airspace, 100% responsible for your own actions, is also great. If you suck at flying without ATC, and/or other pilots holding your hand, well you just suck at that and need more training. That is not a bad thing, blaming others for your lack of skill is a bad thing.

    P.S. If your CFI says that flying in class E/G airspace Nordo makes you a "reckless dumb ass," please find a CFI that is not a dumb ass!




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  15. Banjo33

    Banjo33 Line Up and Wait

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    Exact response and attitude I expected. :dunno:
     
  16. OkieAviator

    OkieAviator Pattern Altitude

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    Sometimes the wind shifts....
     
  17. timwinters

    timwinters Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Because it's right?
     
  18. Silvaire

    Silvaire En-Route

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    Weren't we talking about in the pattern at an airport with a bunch of other people?
     
  19. timwinters

    timwinters Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    There were two people in the pattern, hardly crowded...especially since it's likely from the tine of the OP that they were 727 patterns.
     
  20. 3393RP

    3393RP Pattern Altitude

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    How does the runway collision of a 152 and T-28 fit into this thread?

    Any takers?
     
  21. Banjo33

    Banjo33 Line Up and Wait

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    No.
     
  22. Warmi

    Warmi Pre-Flight

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    What’s there to learn .. either see and avoid works reliably enough or it doesn’t - it is not that hard, you either see the other guy or you don’t and if you don’t and there is no radio being used then you are down to dumb luck.
    Nothing guarantees anything but safety is all about putting as many layers as possible between you and the disaster and using radio is just another layer - if you combine the radio with see and avoid and proper use of pattern procedures , well, you have 3 layers which is always better than 2 which in turn is better than just one ... I mean , it is not that hard to understand , is it ?
     
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  23. bflynn

    bflynn En-Route

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    There were two airplanes on the same runway. Radio apparently didn’t work and see and avoid failed because of the sun. Otherwise, only a tenuous connection.

    I say that if you don’t like nordo aircraft, go fly in controlled airspace where they aren’t.
     
  24. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

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    So here's how I look at it. Should everyone be looking out the window? Absolutely, there is no excuse for failure to do that. Is that 100 % effective? Nope, as can be seen from accidents over the years. Next question, does having a radio in the airplane help with situational awareness and help avoid accidents? Absolutely, it helps tremendously by allowing the other pilots to look in the area you broadcast and find you to maintain separation. Is there any excuse not to use a radio in the pattern other than equipment failure? Not in my book. You can buy a transceiver for less than $200 now, short money compared to other aviation costs for something that makes it safer for everyone flying. It's just a good idea.
     
  25. Duster

    Duster Pre-Flight

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    Warmi,

    I don't disagree about the value of communicating on ctaf. However, I couldn't disagree more about learning to be better at spotting traffic and/or critical obstacles etc.

    My point, was that the we need to be the best we can be at operating in different types of airspace. Reality is that communication is not required in class E and G airspace, proceed accordingly.

    That said, how often do you hear pilots calling from 10 west, when they are actually in some other direction? In my experience, it happens all the time. There are many days in central TX when there are so many aircraft reporting on 122.8, that it is downright absurd. There's always the one guy that wants to tell his life story every 30 seconds, instead of just reporting his position and clear/brief intentions; meanwhile he gets stepped on by the Skyhawk calling every leg of a closed pattern for an hour straight, along with the other Skyhawks doing the exact same thing at 12 different airports within 100 miles on the same ctaf. On top of that, Bill wants to BS with his buddy George, b/c there is no one in the world besides them, and they have never heard of using a discreet inner-flight frequency. The icing on the cake, are the ifr pilots reporting as though vfr pilots have a clue about what they are saying, which of course they don't.

    So yeah, talk on the radio in uncontrolled airspace, but please strive to be the best you can be at using all those layers of safety.

    The reason I don't talk a lot on the radio at work, is because there's a lot of different tasks/information I am juggling in the cockpit, we're also talking on our work radio. Combine that with flying between 5' AGL up to as high as 500' in turns, trying to be as efficient as possible; all whilst not hitting wires, towers, other low flying aircraft, and performing a quality application on target in constantly changing atmospheric conditions etc. In that scenario, it is usually a lot safer to focus on listening to traffic, and only speak when absolutely necessary. My life literally depends on see and avoid all day, every day at work. If it wasn't possible to get better at that, seriously doubt I'd still be alive.

    In my personal aircraft, we always communicate within 10 miles of an uncontrolled airport. Also, I spent a ridiculous amount of money on all kinds of bright flashing lights!