No documented oil changes after major engine work

samuelcchance

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samuelcchance
Hi Everyone,

I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this so I am sorry if this is the wrong place for this.

I am looking at purchasing a 1972 Cessna 150L. The aircraft I am currently looking at has roughly 5200hrs. TTAF and about 1600 hrs. SMOH. It had all four cylinders replaced and basically a top end overhaul done in 2014. Now to my question, it has no documented oil changes between annuals from March 2011 to current (October 2016). In that time period is flew more than 900 hours, and had the major engine work mentioned above. How big of an issue are these missing oil changes, and how do they effect the value of the aircraft? Will this cause an issue not only for me, but would they cause a potentially big issue if I purchase the aircraft and then want to sell is later on down the line?

Any help or advice is appreciated. Thanks.
 
Question is - was the oil changed but simply wasn't logged (most likely scenario)?
 
If they can't do something as simple as documenting an oil change I would be suspect of everything about the plane. I would ask if they did any oil analysis which could show an oil change schedule.

As far as price goes, you can't really put a number on it other than to assume the engine is run out and will need an immediate overhaul in which case I doubt the two of you could settle on a fair price. Depending on how long you keep the plane and how well you keep up with the records it could have very little impact on hill value.

My advice is to walk away unless you can get it for a steal. If you do I would do an immediate oil analysis and track it closely for the first through oil changes.
 
Looks like someone probably violated the regulatory requirements to document mx. If they did not document oil changes, what other mx did they not document?

On the other hand you can probably negotiate the price down quite a bit due to undocumented maintenance / improper record keeping.
 
The owner hasn't gotten any oil analysis done since 2010. It seems like it is negligence on the current owners part. The oil has obviously been changed at some point in time, but there is no record of when or how consistently it was done. My biggest concern is that the new cylinders were not broken in properly and are now pretty much worthless, so the engine may now need an overhaul. Is it best to make an offer based on the assumption that the engine will need an overhaul in the very near future?
 
Many owners who do preventative mx tasks do not do the required log entries. Whether it is out of laziness, ignorance or just a disregard for the regs is anyone's guess.
 
Many owners who do preventative mx tasks do not do the required log entries. Whether it is out of laziness, ignorance or just a disregard for the regs is anyone's guess.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who has seen this violated by owners time and time again.

Back to the OP's question though, 91.417 tells us what documentation needs to be retained and how long we need to retain it. As you'll see there, there is no obligation to retain some or all of the oil change entries that are apparently missing. So what does that do to aircraft valuation? I'd say nothing.
 
Some would argue that 1600 hours since overhaul is a run-out engine, for the purpose of resale. Regardless of the cylinders.

If you accept that idea, then for the purpose of pricing the plane it's almost irrelevant whether the oil changes were done. Or any other engine maintenance, for that matter. The plane should be priced as if it needs an engine overhaul now.

For the purpose of safety in flying the plane, on the other hand, the sorry state of the logs is relevant. As mentioned above, if the owner didn't log oil changes, you've got to ask what else was neglected, in the engine as well as the airframe, and ask whether you feel safe flying it.
 
So is it the logbook entries you value? Maybe the seller should add a bunch and raise the price?
 
For those who do not seem to know that documenting maintenance including preventive maintenance such as oil changes is a regulatory requirement, please read below.

§43.5 Approval for return to service after maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, or alteration.
No person may approve for return to service any aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, or appliance, that has undergone maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, or alteration unless—
(a) The maintenance record entry required by §43.9 or §43.11, as appropriate, has been made;

§43.9 Content, form, and disposition of maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, and alteration records (except inspections performed in accordance with part 91, part 125, §135.411(a)(1), and §135.419 of this chapter).
(a) Maintenance record entries. Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section, each person who maintains, performs preventive maintenance, rebuilds, or alters an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part shall make an entry in the maintenance record of that equipment containing the following information:
(1) A description (or reference to data acceptable to the Administrator) of work performed.
(2) The date of completion of the work performed.
(3) The name of the person performing the work if other than the person specified in paragraph (a)(4) of this section.
(4) If the work performed on the aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part has been performed satisfactorily, the signature, certificate number, and kind of certificate held by the person approving the work. The signature constitutes the approval for return to service only for the work performed.


A private pilot who does not make the required entry for his oil change could be found in violation of the above regulations. And as previously stated, you must wonder what else has gone undocumented.
 
Wow. Tough crowd.

To Samuel:

There are some around here that will say walk away from an airplane if it's last wash job hasn't been logged.

As to the airplane we are talking about here, if the cylinders aren't glazed and if it isn't using unreasonable amounts of oil, and the compressions are good, you can pretty much assume it is broken in properly.

As to the contention that there may be undocumented maintenance, a thorough pre-buy inspection should reveal whether or not the airplane is ship shape.

Personally, if it all checked out, I wouldn't be afraid of it. But there are more fish in the sea, so to say. You should be able to find one that suits you.
 
I agree with Greg's summary. It's a 150, not a 10/10 421. Guy probably did his own oil changes and didn't log them. The oil will have been changed every year as part of annual.

If the plane looks good and everything checks out, I wouldn't be afraid of it. But I would use the missing log entries as a negotiating point.
 
and if I owned it....and someone pointed out the errors of my ways.....I'd make the entries and be done with it.
 
I could understand the owner not logging, but if done as an annual and the MX guys not logging? That is a lot shadier.
 
Greg is obviously more administrator than good advice giver. Engine logs are crucial. If lame, so may well be the rest of the maintenance. Buy it like it needs an overhaul and you may be ok. But then the airframe could be corroded and shot. If the annual sign offs didn't give a crap about oil changes how much else did they shine on?
Have seen two planes bought in the last few years with crappy logs. Both ended up needing overhauls, one with corrosion requiring repairs. ALL MISSED BY THE A & useless P at annuals from a "reputable" shop! One had a cracked exhaust that had been missed at useless annual from the "reputable" shop probably more than once. Had the buyers not been concerned enough to do thorough inspections they may well have had at least one engine failure. I was there the day he pulled a cylinder and saw the play in the components and the scarred cam.
Greg, stick to censoring posts and stop giving crap advice....
 
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Does the owner have a second more informal log book? We (two co-owners) never logged oil changes in the official log, but we documented every flight, airport, fuel fill and oil addition, change etc and anything else significant including wash jobs etc in our logbook, which was kept in the airplane. The official logs were kept elsewhere. Maybe this wasn't legal, but it was a permanent record, & went with the airplane when it was sold 35 years later.
 
A friend & advisor of mine and I were having lunch. He was upper management at UPS Airlines. He made the comment that, when buying a used aircraft, they (UPS) were not buying the aircraft, they were buying the records.
 
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