Night currency

flyingron said:
If you mean "take control" as in be in command, they should already be in control. If by "take control" you mean grab the controls out of the other pilot's hands, I'll disagree.
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I mean being prepared to take control in the sense of becoming the manipulator of the controls if necessary, preferably not by "grabbing" from the other pilot, but rather by a prearranged orderly transfer protocol (e.g. "I have the plane").
 
fiveoboy01 said:
Not sure I agree with that analogy. The 121 Captain and First Officer are both current, and I'm obviously not letting a non pilot rated buddy land the airplane.
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Perhaps not, but if you allow your buddy straight and level, the same separation of PIC and manipulation applies.

And, just as obviously, others might be willing to do, and have done, exactly that - let a non-pilot land the airplane. "Buddies" is probably not that common but there are plenty of non-CFI moms and dads who have taught their sons and daughters to land the family airplane well before the child has taken lessons.
What is the reason for the night currency rule?
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Probably night landing accident history, which is the genesis for most pilot operational limitations and currency rules. It sets an objective minimum standard for carrying passengers that hopefully gets pilots thinking about night risk factors even though it does not guaranty night proficiency (and, on the flip side, there are plenty of pilots who are night proficient without being night current).

Legal does not equal safe.
Current does not equal proficient.
​

My opinion is that acting PIC shouldn't be touching the controls unless they are a CFI. I understand it's legal, I just don't agree with it in this situation. But I'm not the FAA either. They have it figured out better than i do:)
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I'm not sure the the FAA has "figured it out." But they do try to make rules that have the broadest application and give us the widest freedom to choose (some rules notwithstanding).

I guess if you have a problem with it and taking on the associated risks, you don't do it. But it is a reasonable option for others.
 
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I guess if you have a problem with it and taking on the associated risks, you don't do it. But it is a reasonable option for others.
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I haven't landed an airplane at night since my 10 required for the PPL way back in the fall of 2013. I don't think I'd attempt to regain my night currency without a CFI... But that's me. I am probably a lot more conservative than most.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
I haven't landed an airplane at night since my 10 required for the PPL way back in the fall of 2013. I don't think I'd attempt to regain my night currency without a CFI... But that's me. I am probably a lot more conservative than most.
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One possibility, especially at a well-lit airport, is to start doing S&Gs just 20 or 30 minutes after sunset, and keep going unless it starts to feel uncomfortable. That way you can regain proficiency gradually, all in one flight, even without a CFI.
 
But what if you're taking off on a treadmill?
 
acrophile said:
One possibility, especially at a well-lit airport, is to start doing S&Gs just 20 or 30 minutes after sunset, and keep going unless it starts to feel uncomfortable. That way you can regain proficiency gradually, all in one flight, even without a CFI.
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That is actually what my CFI recommended a couple years ago.

I had one flight a couple months ago where it was not yet dark, but getting there. My landing sucked but I can't say if it was due to the impending darkness or not. Sometimes they suck in broad daylight:)
 
Funny thing is my night landings always seem to be better than my day landings.

Daytime landings I'm like "whatever, this looks and feels close enough I've done this a thousand times."

Nighttime landings I'm checking altitude, PAPI/VASI, and airspeed vigilantly - especially with trees on one end I can't see at night.
 
acrophile said:
One possibility, especially at a well-lit airport, is to start doing S&Gs just 20 or 30 minutes after sunset
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That is how I introduce my students to night flight. A transition from dusk to full night. It allows them to see the gradual degrading of distance/depth/attitude perception and (especially out here in the desert) to move from visual cues to instruments.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
I haven't landed an airplane at night since my 10 required for the PPL way back in the fall of 2013. I don't think I'd attempt to regain my night currency without a CFI... But that's me. I am probably a lot more conservative than most.
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Of course, and that makes and enormous amount of sense.

I'm pretty conservative also but my night experience includes having done most of my instrument training at night and about about a tenth of my flight time and total landings taking pace in the dark. And many others have even more night experience than that.

But the point is that even though I haven't been night current now for 2 years, I would have no hesitation getting current on my own in a very familiar airplane, while I might hesitate doing it in one in a model Ihaven';t flown as much.

The reg needs to account for both of us, don't you think?
 
coloradobluesky said:
Pilots can do this if one is under the hood because the other one is a REQUIRED CREW MEMBER. By YOUR interpretation, two pilots could go out and fly, neither under the hood, and both log PIC. You are saying, one because he IS PIC, the other because he manipulates the controls. NOT HOW IT WORKS! Only if one is a required crew member! Or instructor.
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Did you read the post? I didn't say that at all.

I'm not sure how you got "Both log PIC" from "Charlie logs nothing" but you don't need to scream about your misreading.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Of course, and that makes and enormous amount of sense.

I'm pretty conservative also but my night experience includes having done most of my instrument training at night and about about a tenth of my flight time and total landings taking pace in the dark. And many others have even more night experience than that.

But the point is that even though I haven't been night current now for 2 years, I would have no hesitation getting current on my own in a very familiar airplane, while I might hesitate doing it in one in a model Ihaven';t flown as much.

The reg needs to account for both of us, don't you think?
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Agreed:)

It's interesting that Charlie can act as PIC but can't log it, but can log it if the other guy is wearing foggles. It makes more sense though, in one instance he's more or less along for the ride and in the other he's actively looking out the window for threats.

I learned something new today, I had never even heard of two private pilots going up so that one could get night currency. That's why I was suspicious of the legality.. but it was just my ignorance on the subject. I always thought you either had to do it alone or if you wanted instruction, with a CFI.
 
coloradobluesky said:
Pilots can do this if one is under the hood because the other one is a REQUIRED CREW MEMBER. By YOUR interpretation, two pilots could go out and fly, neither under the hood, and both log PIC. You are saying, one because he IS PIC, the other because he manipulates the controls. NOT HOW IT WORKS! Only if one is a required crew member! Or instructor.
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Do you have reading comprehension problems? That's not what Mark said at all.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
It's interesting that Charlie can act as PIC but can't log it, but can log it if the other guy is wearing foggles. It makes more sense though, in one instance he's more or less along for the ride and in the other he's actively looking out the window for threats.
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No, that's not how being PIC works. In the non-foggles scenario, Charlie isn't just along for the ride. He still has to be looking out the window for threats (because he's PIC), as well as monitoring all other aspects of the flight (because he's PIC).
 
fiveoboy01 said:
And yet he can't log it as PIC time.
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Yup. The FAA has made an insanely confusing choice of terminology by calling it "logging PIC time" when being PIC is neither necessary nor sufficient for logging it.
 
acrophile said:
I mean being prepared to take control in the sense of becoming the manipulator of the controls if necessary, preferably not by "grabbing" from the other pilot, but rather by a prearranged orderly transfer protocol (e.g. "I have the plane").
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I still don't agree. There's more to command than handling the controls.
 
EdFred said:
Just to take this further, because what would a PoA thread be without it happening...

You are on your last day of night currency (all three t/o and landings were 90 days ago), and take a non-pilot buddy up for a flight. You depart at 11pm local time (sunset was around 7 or so, and we aren't in Alaska with the horizon rule - so it's definitely night) and the flight lasts more than an hour before you return to the airport.

Busting the regs?
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Who cares? If you run of the edge of the runway at 12:01 on landing three, then assume your watch is fast, and it happened at 11:59.
 
flyingron said:
I still don't agree. There's more to command than handling the controls.
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Yes, and my earlier post mentioned more than handling the controls. In the latest post, I was just clarifying the control-handling part for you, since you seemed concerned about "grabbing".

So which part don't you agree with?
 
Ah yes, another "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"
You know, this was once hotly debated and even resulted in fisticuffs.
Well, that is exactly at the same level as this topic is.

Get current by whatever method you choose - log it - move on. sheesh :mad2:
 
fiveoboy01 said:
Agreed:)

It's interesting that Charlie can act as PIC but can't log it, but can log it if the other guy is wearing foggles. .
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It's a result (ridiculous quirk to some) of the logging rules. 61.51, which I like to refer to is the "Universal Rule of Logging Time" requires a non-flying pilot to be a required flight crewmember in a multi-pilot crew in order to log either PIC or SIC time (leaving out the special logging rules for instructors)

The FAA has taken the position that because a safety pilot is required for simulated IFR flight by 91.109, the safety pilot is a required crewmember and may log either PIC or SIC time under the Universal Rule.

You don't have anything similar with respect to gaining landing currency. After all, the non-current pilot is perfectly free to go up all by himself.
 
Having just purchased my first ownership insurance, I proposed to my co-owner that while I'm allowed to be his safety pilot prior to satisfying my 5 hour solo requirement in the aircraft, we would not be insured while I logged PIC.

Head. Exploded.
 
ChrisK said:
Having just purchased my first ownership insurance, I proposed to my co-owner that while I'm allowed to be his safety pilot prior to satisfying my 5 hour solo requirement in the aircraft, we would not be insured while I logged PIC.

Head. Exploded.
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Whoa, whoa, whoa.

Where did we miss you getting a plane?!?
 
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