Night currency

sddiver

sddiver

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SDDiver
It’s been a few months since I’ve flown at night so I can’t take passengers at the moment.

Can I go up with another pilot though? He is also not night current. We’re thinking about splitting cost, flying to another airport and getting our stop-and-goes in together, with each of us doing at least 3.

While I think this is legal, I have no chapter and verse on which to base my hypothesis.
 
Not legal unless the other pilot is a CFI...
 
sddiver said:
While I think this is legal, I have no chapter and verse on which to base my hypothesis.
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You won't find chapter and verse on it being legal because it is not.

The rule (you can read it) that requires night currency requires it when acting as PIC when carrying passengers. Unless he or she is a required crewmember (for the entire flight) another pilot is just a passenger, the same just like a fully-qualified United captain is just a passenger when deadheading and not part of the crew.

So long as one of the two pilots in your scenario is current and qualified, he or she can be the one acting as PIC while the other does the takeoffs and landings and counts the for currency.

And there is a special rule for CFIs that illustrates the point. Neither the CFI nor the student (whether certificated pilot or student) on an instructional flight needs to be current because neither is considered a passenger.
 
Just to take this further, because what would a PoA thread be without it happening...

You are on your last day of night currency (all three t/o and landings were 90 days ago), and take a non-pilot buddy up for a flight. You depart at 11pm local time (sunset was around 7 or so, and we aren't in Alaska with the horizon rule - so it's definitely night) and the flight lasts more than an hour before you return to the airport.

Busting the regs?
 
EdFred said:
Just to take this further, because what would a PoA thread be without it happening...

You are on your last day of night currency (all three t/o and landings were 90 days ago), and take a non-pilot buddy up for a flight. You depart at 11pm local time (sunset was around 7 or so, and we aren't in Alaska with the horizon rule - so it's definitely night) and the flight lasts more than an hour before you return to the airport.

Busting the regs?
Click to expand...

Unrelated, but I've always loved your avatar. The PA-24 has the sexiest wings of any GA aircraft.
 
EdFred said:
Just to take this further, because what would a PoA thread be without it happening...

You are on your last day of night currency (all three t/o and landings were 90 days ago), and take a non-pilot buddy up for a flight. You depart at 11pm local time (sunset was around 7 or so, and we aren't in Alaska with the horizon rule - so it's definitely night) and the flight lasts more than an hour before you return to the airport.

Busting the regs?
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The take-off was legal but his night currency died at 12:00am, so any flying after that is a bust.
 
sddiver said:
It’s been a few months since I’ve flown at night so I can’t take passengers at the moment.

Can I go up with another pilot though? He is also not night current. We’re thinking about splitting cost, flying to another airport and getting our stop-and-goes in together, with each of us doing at least 3.

While I think this is legal, I have no chapter and verse on which to base my hypothesis.
Click to expand...

The only way to make it legal would be to bring foggles and do some practice instrument flying with the other pilot as safety pilot (thus a required crew member).

In a recent thread, it was suggested that the other pilot would still be a passenger during takeoff and landing, when not acting as safety pilot. I thought so too but am now inclined to disagree. Although safety pilot time (SIC or PIC) can only be logged when the pilot's outside view is blocked, the other crew member's presence is still required throughout the flight, unless the FAA expects them to parachute into and out of the plane at the appropriate times.
 
ahkahn said:
The take-off was legal but his night currency died at 12:00am, so any flying after that is a bust.
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What if he flew to another airport and crossed from eastern to central time zone? Or if the currency was done in California, and this incident was done in Colorado?
 
EdFred said:
What if he flew to another airport and crossed a time zone? Or if the currency was done in California, and this incident was done in Colorado?
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You'd still be legal if you're flying westbound and crossing time zones prior to 12:00am local, but in your example you said "return to airport", so I assumed you were flying locally.

That said, I also think there is some old maritime rule that has to do with once you depart the captain may revert the ship time to either destination or en route local time. I don't know the details on that, but if you're crossing time zones that may also apply.
 
EdFred said:
Just to take this further, because what would a PoA thread be without it happening...

You are on your last day of night currency (all three t/o and landings were 90 days ago), and take a non-pilot buddy up for a flight. You depart at 11pm local time (sunset was around 7 or so, and we aren't in Alaska with the horizon rule - so it's definitely night) and the flight lasts more than an hour before you return to the airport.

Busting the regs?
Click to expand...

Fly west across time zone change, land at 23:59 at an enroute airport an hour later than necessary at the departure location, kick buddy out to go get a soda at FBO, three laps around the pattern doing stop and goes, pack buddy back in airplane and depart.

LOL...
 
EdFred said:
What if he flew to another airport and crossed from eastern to central time zone? Or if the currency was done in California, and this incident was done in Colorado?
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The other part of your question (Colorado/California) is that it's "days" not "hours", so it's done by the date of last landing.

But, considering pilots don't usually carry logbooks with them, and a ramp checker wouldn't be able to see your currency right there on the spot, I don't think this would be much of an enforcement issue.
 
Most currency issues don't become enforcement issues until "something happens", resulting in logbook scrutiny after the fact.
 
acrophile said:
The only way to make it legal would be to bring foggles and do some practice instrument flying with the other pilot as safety pilot (thus a required crew member).

In a recent thread, it was suggested that the other pilot would still be a passenger during takeoff and landing, when not acting as safety pilot. I thought so too but am now inclined to disagree. Although safety pilot time (SIC or PIC) can only be logged when the pilot's outside view is blocked, the other crew member's presence is still required throughout the flight, unless the FAA expects them to parachute into and out of the plane at the appropriate times.
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I think the problem is that the safety pilot is only a required crewmember when the foggles are on in a operation that is as optional as taking any other passenger on board. Hardly matters how he got there.

But, in the 2012 Roberts interpretation, responding "No" to a question about whether a safety pilot must pay his pro-rata share, the Chief Counsel's office said,
The safety pilot is not required to pay a pro rata share of the operating expenses of the flight regardless of whether he is acting as PIC since neither individual is a passenger. (my emphasis)
​
So, there you go. I have no predictions on whether or not the Chief Counsel would stand by that opinion or find way to distinguish it in the landing currency situation.
 
Follow up hypothetical question:

Say I'm not night current, but a pilot friend of mine is in fact night current(non-CFI). While flying at night, could I perform landings in the aircraft and obtain night currency with him/her there?
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Follow up hypothetical question:

Say I'm not night current, but a pilot friend of mine is in fact night current(non-CFI). While flying at night, could I perform landings in the aircraft and obtain night currency with him/her there?
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Yes.

He/She ACTS as PIC (but logs nothing) and you log the time and landings to become current.
 
ahkahn said:
The other part of your question (Colorado/California) is that it's "days" not "hours", so it's done by the date of last landing.

But, considering pilots don't usually carry logbooks with them, and a ramp checker wouldn't be able to see your currency right there on the spot, I don't think this would be much of an enforcement issue.
Click to expand...

But the date of where the currency was performed is not outside the 90 days. ;)
 
midlifeflyer said:
And there is a special rule for CFIs that illustrates the point. Neither the CFI nor the student (whether certificated pilot or student) on an instructional flight needs to be current because neither is considered a passenger.
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Huh. I had a CFI who asked if she could do three landings during my night dual flight to keep up her currency. On my dime. So this information is...interesting. :(
 
denverpilot said:
Fly west across time zone change, land at 23:59 at an enroute airport an hour later than necessary at the departure location, kick buddy out to go get a soda at FBO, three laps around the pattern doing stop and goes, pack buddy back in airplane and depart.

LOL...
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Bah, I screwed that up. You have a takeoff and a landing getting to the first stop, so you only need two more. :)
 
bikert said:
Huh. I had a CFI who asked if she could do three landings during my night dual flight to keep up her currency. On my dime. So this information is...interesting. :(
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If she was doing non instructional flights with upcoming passengers she would need the currency.
 
And she's required crew if she's holding your beer.
 
Why not call him your safety pilot? Then he is a required crew member?
 
EdFred said:
Yes.

He/She ACTS as PIC (but logs nothing) and you log the time and landings to become current.
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What if the plane is a rental and the rental agreement stipulates the that renter must be PIC?
 
asicer said:
What if the plane is a rental and the rental agreement stipulates the that renter must be PIC?
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That's between the renter and the rentee, not the FAA. That's like asking if something is legal even if your wife says no you can't do it. It's still legal.
 
EdFred said:
That's between the renter and the rentee, not the FAA. That's like asking if something is legal even if your wife says no you can't do it. It's still legal.
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True, but what if something goes wrong? Seems there could be several different parties (NTSB, FAA, insurer, owner, rental counter, left seat occupant, right seat occupant) arguing who is PIC.
 
EdFred said:
Just to take this further, because what would a PoA thread be without it happening...

You are on your last day of night currency (all three t/o and landings were 90 days ago), and take a non-pilot buddy up for a flight. You depart at 11pm local time (sunset was around 7 or so, and we aren't in Alaska with the horizon rule - so it's definitely night) and the flight lasts more than an hour before you return to the airport.

Busting the regs?
Click to expand...

No, not as long as you stay in the air until morning light! :)
 
EdFred said:
If she was doing non instructional flights with upcoming passengers she would need the currency.
Click to expand...
Yes.

Or she was unaware of the interpretation. It's relatively recent, not particularly intuitive from the regs, and many CFIs don't keep up with the Chief Counsel interpretations. I'd bet most CFIs that don't hang out on the internet even know about them; I haven't searched but would not be surprised if they are not mentioned anywhere in FAA training materials as a source of regulatory information.
 
asicer said:
True, but what if something goes wrong? Seems there could be several different parties (NTSB, FAA, insurer, owner, rental counter, left seat occupant, right seat occupant) arguing who is PIC.
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That the FAA doesn't care doesn't mean there isn't some other rule or policy or law that deals with it. Your driver's license means you can drive any car. But you are still not allowed to steal one.

The FAA's rules deal with who may act as PIC in certain aircraft and operations.

But, assuming one meets FAA qualifications, the decision whether or not to act as PIC on a flight is usually based on factirs that have nothing to do with the FAA. Who owns the airplane. Rental agreements. Insurance restrictions. Willingness to assume certain liability risks. The list goes on.
 
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fiveoboy01 said:
I'm not sure I agree with that methodology... Legal? Very questionable.
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Charlie is current. Elaine is not. Charlie agrees to act as PIC on the flight and, as PIC, permits Elaine to do the takeoffs and landings.

Elaine logs PIC and the landings as the sole manipulator of the controls. Charlie logs nothing because there is no logging FAR that authorizes him to.

Perfectly legit. What do you find questionable or not legal about it?

Edited to fix the roles.
 
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midlifeflyer said:
Pilot A is current. Pilot B is not. Pilot B agrees to act as PIC on the flight and, as PIC, permits pilot A to do the takeoffs and landings.

Pilot A logs PIC and the landings as the sole manipulator of the controls. Pilot B logs nothing because there is no logging FAR that authorizes him to.

Perfectly legit. What do you find questionable or not legal about it?
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I think you got that backwards. If Pilot B is not current they can not legally act as PIC.

I think you mean Pilot A acts as PIC but lets Pilot B do the takeoffs and landings.

Yes, this is legal and will regain pilot B's currency.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Pilot A is current. Pilot B is not. Pilot B agrees to act as PIC on the flight and, as PIC, permits pilot A to do the takeoffs and landings.

Pilot A logs PIC and the landings as the sole manipulator of the controls. Pilot B logs nothing because there is no logging FAR that authorizes him to.

Perfectly legit. What do you find questionable or not legal about it?
Click to expand...

Well I'm wrong then, just seems to skirt the intent even if legal. What does it matter if the guy in the right seat is night current or not... He's not doing the flying and for all practical purposes is just a pax:dunno:
 
fiveoboy01 said:
Well I'm wrong then, just seems to skirt the intent even if legal. What does it matter if the guy in the right seat is night current or not... He's not doing the flying and for all practical purposes is just a pax:dunno:
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You mean like an airline captain is "just a pax" when the First Officer is flying? Or that you are "just a pax" when you take your non-pilot friend or relative for a flight and allow them to fly a bit?

It matters because the guy in the right seat has taken on responsibility for the flight, whomever happens to be manipulating the controls at the time.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
Well I'm wrong then, just seems to skirt the intent even if legal. What does it matter if the guy in the right seat is night current or not... He's not doing the flying and for all practical purposes is just a pax
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That's not how PIC responsibility works. The PIC is in charge of the flight. That means supervising the pilot manipulating the controls, making sure everything is being done properly, and being prepared to take control at any moment if necessary. A PIC who doesn't take that responsibility seriously is derelict.
 
Thanks for the comments about getting it backwards. Bad habit. I edited it to get rid of the Pilot A and B and replace them with ("c"urrent) Charlie and ("e"xpired) Elaine.
 
acrophile said:
That's not how PIC responsibility works. The PIC is in charge of the flight. That means supervising the pilot manipulating the controls, making sure everything is being done properly, and being prepared to take control at any moment if necessary. A PIC who doesn't take that responsibility seriously is derelict.
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If you mean "take control" as in be in command, they should already be in control. If by "take control" you mean grab the controls out of the other pilot's hands, I'll disagree.
 
midlifeflyer said:
You mean like an airline captain is "just a pax" when the First Officer is flying? Or that you are "just a pax" when you take your non-pilot friend or relative for a flight and allow them to fly a bit?
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Not sure I agree with that analogy. The 121 Captain and First Officer are both current, and I'm obviously not letting a non pilot rated buddy land the airplane.


It matters because the guy in the right seat has taken on responsibility for the flight, whomever happens to be manipulating the controls at the time.
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What is the reason for the night currency rule?

My opinion is that acting PIC shouldn't be touching the controls unless they are a CFI. I understand it's legal, I just don't agree with it in this situation. But I'm not the FAA either. They have it figured out better than i do:)
 
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