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hindsight2020 said:
As a Catholic by upbringing, "ecumenical" in tendencies by choice, and really just an unwashed non-devout in practice (which is to say, cafeteria catholic LOL), I gotta say, the underlined quoted kinda describes Protestantism by proxy, brother. Don't you know this is Shawshank...we ALL innocent here. :D

--break break--

As to MT, I don't find it upsetting in the least that her work was misunderstood and her public image politicized. As a cafeteria catholic, I don't have the moral conflict of feeling like I have to defend every aspect of humanity's abuse of organized religion as somehow invalidating of my interpretation of spirituality. To modify a page from Mark Twain and make it my own: "Don't let organized religion get in the way of your Faith". I don't know why people view life in such binary ways. Life is much more gradated. Constantly tossing out the good in order to highlight the fallibility of humanity, is just politics.
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That was well said.
 
deonb said:
I think the writer would have simply preferred that the donations she received was actually used to care for the poor instead of most of it being sent to the Vatican.

But she never had any desires to care for the poor - she said herself that her mission was conversion, not social work. That's what she signed up to do. So you can't blame her for not looking after the poor - but you shouldn't praise her for it either.

Ask yourself the question - if she was Muslim, but everything else was the same - would you still consider her to be this great person deserving of a Nobel Prize? If some "Mother Tahirah" got $75m per year in donations to look after the poor and instead send $70m of that over to Hezbollah. And then also take stolen money and refuse to return it to the victims? Great person or Grifter?
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If she were a Muslim, she would be statistically more likely to wear a suicide vest, and less likely to be working with foreign orphans of a different religion.
Your moral equivalence doesn't work. You can't ignore the doctrinal principles, you have to ask why they do what they do. What does Hezbolla teach about charity, serving others, and people of different faiths? And, what does the Catholic Church teach about those things? Why would Theresa want a child to accept the Catholic faith, and why would Tahira want a child to become a Muslim? Whether you are sincere or just trying to muddy the waters, simplifying it down to " all other things being equal, this or that," doesn't help. The other things aren't equal.
BTW, how do you know that she had no desire to serve the poor? Are those her words?
 
Cooter143 said:
If she were a Muslim, she would be statistically more likely to wear a suicide vest, and less likely to be working with foreign orphans of a different religion.
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A Mother Tahirah would be no more likely to wear a suicide vest than a Mother Teresa would be to bomb an abortion clinic.
 
ircphoenix said:
A Mother Tahirah would be no more likely to wear a suicide vest than a Mother Teresa would be to bomb an abortion clinic.
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Check your stats. 450 of 452 suicide bombings in 2015 were by Muslims. How many abortion clinics were bombed last year? We can argue along those lines, but it would be more helpful if you responded to the rest of what I said.
 
PaulS said:
You can't go anywhere in this country and not be more than 25 miles from a Catholic founded institution that helps or educates people and betters their lives. You can ignore that to make yourself feel better about what you say, or you can be honest.
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Yes, and let me tell you how that works. I used to live 5 minutes away from my doctor who worked in a perfectly fine Hospital. This was taken over by a Catholic-run group some years later. It wasn't long until they started to tell doctors what they could say or not say to women, so my doctor left as a result, together with a few other. So I switched to another doctor, still there. Well, end-of-life care was passed as a law, and the hospital didn't want to fall in line, so a bunch more doctors left, including my new one.

I wasn't going to wait around to see what other stupid thing they can do on the basis of dogma instead of medicine, so I switched to another clinic, which is now 45 minutes drive away. Well, also, so many doctors left at the same time you couldn't even get an appointment there anymore to see someone else anyway. So here I am still today, driving past there every time to get to another hospital in a different down.

It's not like the Catholic church built that hospital. It was working perfectly fine for many years and served the community well. The Catholic church merely acquired it and ran it into the ground.
 
deonb said:
Yes, and let me tell you how that works. I used to live 5 minutes away from my doctor who worked in a perfectly fine Hospital. This was taken over by a Catholic-run group some years later. It wasn't long until they started to tell doctors what they could say or not say to women, so my doctor left as a result, together with a few other. So I switched to another doctor, still there. Well, end-of-life care was passed as a law, and the hospital didn't want to fall in line, so a bunch more doctors left, including my new one.

I wasn't going to wait around to see what other stupid thing they can do on the basis of dogma instead of medicine, so I switched to another clinic, which is now 45 minutes drive away. Well, also, so many doctors left at the same time you couldn't even get an appointment there anymore to see someone else anyway. So here I am still today, driving past there every time to get to another hospital in a different down.

It's not like the Catholic church built that hospital. It was working perfectly fine for many years and served the community well. The Catholic church merely acquired it and ran it into the ground.
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You mean they would not provide the healthcare of killing babies or murdering the afflicted (euthanasia) ????? How petty of them, good thing you left.
 
deonb said:
Well, end-of-life care was passed as a law, and the hospital didn't want to fall in line, so a bunch more doctors left, including my new one.
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Sounds like it was working pretty well until a bad law messed things up. Do you have a beef with the lawmakers as well?
 
So, was this thread about a female football player, or what? :(
 
Cooter143 said:
Check your stats. 450 of 452 suicide bombings in 2015 were by Muslims. How many abortion clinics were bombed last year? We can argue along those lines, but it would be more helpful if you responded to the rest of what I said.
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How many Christian missionaries have bombed abortion clinics?

How many Muslim missionaries have donned suicide vests?

Saying that a Muslim missionary is more likely to don a suicide vest on account of their religion misses the point of missionary work entirely. Which is why I was drawing the comparison. To point out the absurdity of the statement. Statements like that just serve to illustrate an ignorance and intolerance of religions that you don't understand.
 
PaulS said:
You mean they would not provide the healthcare of killing babies or murdering the afflicted (euthanasia) ????? How petty of them, good thing you left.
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And there is the crux of all this. You want healthcare to take the form of whatever you believe in your mind to be. To heck with people in the community who use that service that feel different to you and to whom you now deny legal medical care for. As long as you can get your view of the world enforced on others - fine by you. And you haven't said anything, but I think you probably wants schools to start with Christian prayer even if there are non-Christian kids in the school?

That's not social work. That's missionary work. And that's fine. And legal. Should probably be taxed if it's not social work, but whatever.

And in the context of missionary work, Mother Theresa is just fine. She did an excellent job for the Catholic church. She filled a lot of seats and got millions of dollars in direct donations, and probably billions in indirect. If ever there was an award for being a great missionary - she should get one. So sure, Saint her up! But don't pretend she was more than that.
 
mscard88 said:
So, was this thread about a female football player, or what? :(
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No, it's a thread about how people hate Christianity and use any excuse to try to discredit it. A few people are still willing to defend it even though that's not what all the cool kids are doing now. It's a fairly common theme here on POA. PMs are welcome as I'm sure this won't last much longer.
 
mscard88 said:
So, was this thread about a female football player, or what? :(
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It was started by someone who likes to sneak these types of subjects in here although he knows we closed the SZ and discourage them in Hangar Talk. You see what has happened to this thread. We seem to be unable to talk about these types of subjects without them spinning out of control.
 
Ahh I see. I just reread the OP and it completely eluded me. Guess I was watching too much college FB this weekend instead of current events. Nothing like a good religion argument I guess. :rolleyes:
 
ircphoenix said:
How many Christian missionaries have bombed abortion clinics?

How many Muslim missionaries have donned suicide vests?

Saying that a Muslim missionary is more likely to don a suicide vest on account of their religion misses the point of missionary work entirely. Which is why I was drawing the comparison. To point out the absurdity of the statement. Statements like that just serve to illustrate an ignorance and intolerance of religions that you don't understand.
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Tell me more about these Muslim missionaries. I haven't encountered many of them. What is their mission, and how do they go about it?

Also, mine was an absurd statement used to point out the absurdity of your comparison. I thought it would be evident. I would rather discontinue that line, and focus on the merits of Christian missionary work. I would also like to hear more about Muslim missionaries.
 
Cooter143 said:
No, it's a thread about how people hate Christianity and use any excuse to try to discredit it. A few people are still willing to defend it even though that's not what all the cool kids are doing now. It's a fairly common theme here on POA. PMs are welcome as I'm sure this won't last much longer.
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*rolls eyes*

Yes. The largest religion in the world is in danger. Being bombarded on all sides!

Give me a break.

The swipe at the Catholic church (from someone else) I might add, was nonsense.

But the replies suggesting that somehow Catholicism is singularly responsible for all things good was just as nonsensical.
 
Cooter143 said:
No, it's a thread about how people hate Christianity and use any excuse to try to discredit it. A few people are still willing to defend it even though that's not what all the cool kids are doing now. It's a fairly common theme here on POA. PMs are welcome as I'm sure this won't last much longer.
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This one is more about organizations than Christianity me thinks. Nobody has brought Jesus or God into this. This is about the institution of the Catholic church and the Vatican and whether they and their followers do social work or not.
 
deonb said:
It's not like the Catholic church built that hospital. It was working perfectly fine for many years and served the community well. The Catholic church merely acquired it and ran it into the ground.
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If it was working fine, why was it sold?

And why did the docs wait to leave instead of threatening to leave before the sale? (That would have trashed the value of the place and easily stopped the sale...) Docs usually are fairly bright folk.

Seems like it took a whole lot of people to cause that scenario. A lot of people who wanted $$$ more than anything. Not just a church buying the place.

How much did the owners make in the sale? Public company? Shareholders happy? BoD get fired for it? Did the corporation live up to their "mission statement" of excellent patient care by selling it? "Is this good for the Company?" LOL.

Just an observation. I've seen a lot of sellouts over the years.

Doesn't sound like things were actually "working" at the place. They just made it look like they were, until they could dump it. Also sounds like you caught it during its spit-shine phase where they made it look the most attractive to a buyer.

All conjecture of course, but based on having seen it a LOT in my career. We IT guys are usually the third to know Due Diligence is happening behind the scenes for a sale.

(First BoD, then Upper Management, then senior IT... because the information the auditors want is properly secured from prying eyes, and they need the keys...)
 
deonb said:
That's not social work. That's missionary work. And that's fine. And legal. Should probably be taxed if it's not social work, but whatever.
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Missionary work is done in furtherance of religion, and as such, taxing it would violate the First Amendment.
 
@ircphoenix and @deonb . The point I was going to try to make is that Christianity is the why, Catholic missionaries are the how. What Christianity teaches is why she is there. It is why Christians have missionaries all over the world. Not may other religions do that, Muslims included. Christian missionaries have done much to influence the world we live in, but that doesn't make them immune to abuse and distortion. The distinction pointed out above is critical in understanding the issue, understanding the difference in an abuse of a belief and a response to a belief. It's easy to be the ultimate skeptic and always find a flaw, but an honest appraisal of her work requires an understanding of her mission.
 
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denverpilot said:
If it was working fine, why was it sold?

And why did the docs wait to leave instead of threatening to leave before the sale? (That would have trashed the value of the place and easily stopped the sale...) Docs usually are fairly bright folk.
<snip>
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The doctors were promised that it would remain a secular institution. Even the web site still says today that they're secular.

It was't until a year or so later that it was obvious that it wouldn't. You know how these things goes - nobody ever says they would fire a doctor who talk about stuff. The chief of medicine advises it, then doctor complaints about him to HR fall on death ears, and then they slowly realize they either have to fall in line if they ever want to get promoted again, or get out.

And I don't think it was sold so much as being a takeover. They were taken over by a hospital that was many orders of magnitude bigger that wanted to grow rapidly into the state. Probably made the board an offer they couldn't refuse.
 
deonb said:
The doctors were promised that it would remain a secular institution. Even the web site still says today that they're secular.

It was't until a year or so later that it was obvious that it wouldn't. You know how these things goes - nobody ever says they would fire a doctor who talk about stuff. The chief of medicine advises it, then doctor complaints about him to HR fall on death ears, and then they slowly realize they either have to fall in line if they ever want to get promoted again, or get out.

And I don't think it was sold so much as being a takeover. They were taken over by a hospital that was many orders of magnitude bigger that wanted to grow rapidly into the state. Probably made the board an offer they couldn't refuse.
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So, are you against institutions acting in accordance with their beliefs?
 
ircphoenix said:
*rolls eyes*

Yes. The largest religion in the world is in danger. Being bombarded on all sides!
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Christians have a rather lengthy history of being killed for their beliefs, and it is still happening today.
 
Cooter143 said:
Tell me more about these Muslim missionaries. I haven't encountered many of them. What is their mission, and how do they go about it?

Also, mine was an absurd statement used to point out the absurdity of your comparison. I thought it would be evident. I would rather discontinue that line, and focus on the merits of Christian missionary work. I would also like to hear more about Muslim missionaries.
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You won't see much traditional Muslim missionary work in the United States. You'd be surprised how ignorant and hostile people are towards Islam. Most of the focus work is centered in Southeast Asia and eastern Africa. They also set up schools, hospitals, orphanages, etc., as you'd expect of any traditional Christian missionary organization.

I don't have much of a dog in this fight. I'm agnostic. I think whatever makes someone be a good actor in their world is a good thing. If that's religion, fantastic. If it's science, fantastic. If it's being good for good's sake, fantastic. I don't much care. Be a decent friggin' human being for whatever reason you want or need. Just be decent.

My issue is when one side or t'other pretends that their religion is the paragon of virtue. There's not a single religion (including atheism) which hasn't been used as a weapon against another religion. They've all done their dirty deeds. And it is shameful when people refuse to acknowledge that. Or try to say "well MY religion has done THIS, unlike THAT religion which has done THAT." And they use their holy book as a weapon to bludgeon others with. There's not a single religion that can claim persecution, while claiming that they have not done the same to others. "But OUR atrocities were different..." No. They were still atrocities.

*pulls the eject handle*
 
So it sounds like your problem is with belief systems, and not necessarily religions. But, there is a catch.
ircphoenix said:
I don't much care. Be a decent friggin' human being for whatever reason you want or need. Just be decent
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Who defines decent?
 
Cooter143 said:
So, are you against institutions acting in accordance with their beliefs?
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When they deal with the public, yes. If you want to form a private club to do whatever you want, go right ahead, and take your tax exempt status with you.
 
ircphoenix said:
*rolls eyes*

snipped

The swipe at the Catholic church (from someone else) I might add, was nonsense.

But the replies suggesting that somehow Catholicism is singularly responsible for all things good was just as nonsensical.
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Once again, that suggestion only exists in your head, no one said that or implied it.
 
Everskyward said:
It was started by someone who likes to sneak these types of subjects in here although he knows we closed the SZ and discourage them in Hangar Talk. You see what has happened to this thread. We seem to be unable to talk about these types of subjects without them spinning out of control.
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Yep, everything is fine while the bashing is going on, if no one speaks up it just continues, but a couple posts challenging the nonsense it changes to spun out of control.
 
PaulS said:
Yep, everything is fine while the bashing is going on, if no one speaks up it just continues, but a couple posts challenging the nonsense it changes to spun out of control.
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It was nonsense and trolling from the beginning.
 
Im just waiting on this thread to get closed down. It's just embarrassing at this point.

"Religion is like a penis. It's fine to have one and it's fine to be proud of it, but please don't whip it out in public and start waving it around... and PLEASE don't try to shove it down my throat."
 
deonb said:
I don't think we need a Church to come up with the rules "don't murder me and don't take my stuff". Even monkeys have figured that one out.
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Monkeys don't kill each other?

If the church doesn't, who does? You can try to be funny and avoid the question, but I want to know who decides what is right and decent?
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Im just waiting on this thread to get closed down. It's just embarrassing at this point.

"Religion is like a penis. It's fine to have one and it's fine to be proud of it, but please don't whip it out in public and start waving it around... and PLEASE don't try to shove it down my throat."
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Couldn't the same be said of your opinions?
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Im just waiting on this thread to get closed down. It's just embarrassing at this point.

"Religion is like a penis. It's fine to have one and it's fine to be proud of it, but please don't whip it out in public and start waving it around... and PLEASE don't try to shove it down my throat."
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I love the high and mighty start then the crash and burn at the end, I hope it was done on purpose.
 
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