New Information On MH 370

Art VanDelay said:
Page 6 of YOUR OWN source material under EXEMPTIONS lists aircraft with a maximum payload capacity of more than 18,000 pounds that are used in air transportation as being EXEMPT from this rule !
How much more do you want to be wrong about this ? What are you going to show me next - a stealth switch ??????????
Click to expand...

Notice that the statement above says – "Equipped to carry not more than one person" That would imply a cargo plane. So the rule for a B777 still applies.

If you were in an emergency event over the North Atlantic with no HF/VHF coms because there is no electrical power how you were instructed to convey your location so they can quickly assist you?

BTW I was working with Boeing at Everett during the B777 FAA certification and can tell you that the ELT on the B777 is not an option but standard equipment. In fact some of them had dual ELTs at differnt locations.

During the 911 event none of the airplanes involved had their ELT activated, which would had helped identify them. This is why they grounded all air traffic.
It is suspected that the hijackers kept the pilots from turning them on. Since then ELT switch location on many ATP planes is not viewable to the hijackers but maybe disguised as another switch or pedal switch activated, very useful when the pilot has his hands on the head. Some airlines go to the extreme of having a fake ELT switch on the console so the hijackers don't bother to look for the true switch.

In severe turbulence you may get an ELT ON warning on the EICAS display. Check with your company how to re ARM the ELT. Flight simulators have no ELT switches

José
 
Do you realize there are at least two people in this thread who fly 777s? Don't you think they would know about some secret ELT switch? Or maybe they are not telling us because it is secret. :D
 
Everskyward said:
Do you realize there are at least two people in this thread who fly 777s? Don't you think they would know about some secret ELT switch? Or maybe they are not telling us because it is secret. :D
Click to expand...
They are in on the coverup. Bet they were even in on dumping the decoy debris in the Indian Ocean.:yikes::wink2:
 
Everskyward said:
Do you realize there are at least two people in this thread who fly 777s? Don't you think they would know about some secret ELT switch? Or maybe they are not telling us because it is secret. :D
Click to expand...

I don't know about the other two people but for sure one engineer that was involved in the B777 avionics.

José
 
Piloto said:
...It is suspected that the hijackers kept the pilots from turning them on. Since then ELT switch location on many ATP planes is not viewable to the hijackers but maybe disguised as another switch or pedal switch activated, very useful when the pilot has his hands on the head. Some airlines go to the extreme of having a fake ELT switch on the console so the hijackers don't bother to look for the true switch...
Click to expand...

You've got a real talent for just making stuff up. Why don't you get to Googling and show us a picture of one of these pedal operated ELT switches. Or maybe they are so secret Google can't even find them because apparently the pilots don't even know they exist. ;)
 
Silvaire said:
You've got a real talent for just making stuff up. Why don't you get to Googling and show us a picture of one of these pedal operated ELT switches. Or maybe they are so secret Google can't even find them because apparently the pilots don't even know they exist. ;)
Click to expand...

I have not seen the pedal switch myself but heard of it from MRO avionics techs. The ELT switch is commonly combined with other functions due to panel space.

But emergency pedal switches are very common with bank tellers and stores. Specially handy when confronted with a bad guy with a big gun.

If the MH370 pilots never activated the ELT is obvious that this was a hijack and not an emergency event.

José
 
Piloto said:
Notice that the statement above says – "Equipped to carry not more than one person" That would imply a cargo plane. So the rule for a B777 still applies.

If you were in an emergency event over the North Atlantic with no HF/VHF coms because there is no electrical power how you were instructed to convey your location so they can quickly assist you?

BTW I was working with Boeing at Everett during the B777 FAA certification and can tell you that the ELT on the B777 is not an option but standard equipment. In fact some of them had dual ELTs at differnt locations.

During the 911 event none of the airplanes involved had their ELT activated, which would had helped identify them. This is why they grounded all air traffic.
It is suspected that the hijackers kept the pilots from turning them on. Since then ELT switch location on many ATP planes is not viewable to the hijackers but maybe disguised as another switch or pedal switch activated, very useful when the pilot has his hands on the head. Some airlines go to the extreme of having a fake ELT switch on the console so the hijackers don't bother to look for the true switch.

In severe turbulence you may get an ELT ON warning on the EICAS display. Check with your company how to re ARM the ELT. Flight simulators have no ELT switches

José
Click to expand...

:rolleyes2:
 
Piloto said:
I have not seen the pedal switch myself but heard of it from MRO avionics techs. The ELT switch is commonly combined with other functions due to panel space.

But emergency pedal switches are very common with bank tellers and stores. Specially handy when confronted with a bad guy with a big gun.

If the MH370 pilots never activated the ELT is obvious that this was a hijack and not an emergency event.

José
Click to expand...

Dude, seriously, give it up, you're looking really foolish here.
 
RotorAndWing said:
Dude, seriously, give it up, you're looking really foolish here.
Click to expand...

If you were in an emergency event over the North Atlantic with no HF/VHF coms because there is no electrical power how you were instructed to convey your location so they can quickly assist you?

Just give me an answer so I know what to do.

José
 
Piloto said:
If you were in an emergency event over the North Atlantic with no HF/VHF coms because there is no electrical power how you were instructed to convey your location so they can quickly assist you?

Just give me an answer so I know what to do.

José
Click to expand...

Jose,

If you actually did work on the 777 program as you claimed you would know the answer.

Setting off an ELT in flight is not a procedure for lost comms, and never as been.

Most ELT's carried in air transport aircraft are portable units installed in the life rafts, not a part of the airframe.
 
Piloto said:
...Just give me an answer so I know what to do...
Click to expand...

Remain in your seat and keep your mouth shut. Survival ELT's are located in the emergency equipment storage space or are attached to the escape slide. The flight attendants will take care of that. There are no secret pedal switches in the cockpit so do not under any circumstances attempt to gain access to the cockpit to inform the pilots of them - since they don't exist. :no:
 
Silvaire said:
Remain in your seat and keep your mouth shut. Survival ELT's are located in the emergency equipment storage space or are attached to the escape slide. The flight attendants will take care of that. There are no secret pedal switches in the cockpit so do not under any circumstances attempt to gain access to the cockpit to inform the pilots of them - since they don't exist. :no:
Click to expand...

So I sit on and wait until the plane crash before calling for rescue. Well you are right on, that's what MH370 pilots did. But I heard that ELTs are no good underwater.

Here is one of the B777 airframe installed ELT suppliers model Airtex B406-4.

http://www.acrartex.com/products/catalog/elts-commercialmilitary/b406-4/

José
 
Last edited:
Piloto said:
So I sit on and wait until the plane crash before calling for rescue. Well you are right on, that's what MH370 pilots did. But I heard that ELTs are no good underwater.

Here is one of the B777 airframe installed ELT suppliers model Airtex B406-4.

http://www.acrartex.com/products/catalog/elts-commercialmilitary/b406-4/

José
Click to expand...


Hmmmm..

Interesting... Based on the specs spelled out in a name brand ELT companies catalog, it appears that not only is it designed to go in a Boeing airliner. This detail pretty much dictates it passed all of Boeings tests for a proper interface...

"The Artex B406-4 transmits on all 3 emergency frequencies (121.5/243.0 and 406 MHz). The ELT automatically activates during a crash and transmits the standard swept tone on 121.5 and 243.0 MHz. Every 50 seconds for 520 milliseconds (long message protocol), the 406 MHz transmitter turns on and transmits an encoded digital message to the Cospas/Sarsat satellite system. The ELT can be programmed with the aircraft's 24-bit address as well as latitude/longitude information from the aircraft navigation system when used with the Artex ELT/NAV Interface -B (P/N 453-6501). The B406-4 is designed to interface with Boeing's Master Caution System in conjunction with the DZUS mounted cockpit remote panel. The mounting hardware for the B406-4 is compatible with all previous versions of Artex 406 MHz ELTs."

So... Maybe there is NO remote switch to activate it... Maybe it uses the FMS keypad .... Something simple like / CONTROL / ALT / DELETE/...:dunno:..:D
 
RotorAndWing said:
Jose,

If you actually did work on the 777 program as you claimed you would know the answer.

Setting off an ELT in flight is not a procedure for lost comms, and never as been.

Most ELT's carried in air transport aircraft are portable units installed in the life rafts, not a part of the airframe.
Click to expand...

Yes, I would activate this one

http://www.acrartex.com/products/catalog/elts-commercialmilitary/b406-4/

before crash and wait for the FAA violation notice.

BTW I am not impressed by your woodstick. You should see my machete. It will cut your stick in half on one sweep.:D

José
 
Last edited:
I will start this question with the statement I have never seen the cockpit of a 777 and have only flown on one one time. With all of this ELT stuff flying around and FAA regs being pulled up does any of this apply to a foreign registry airplane?
 
Luvrv8 said:
I will start this question with the statement I have never seen the cockpit of a 777 and have only flown on one one time. With all of this ELT stuff flying around and FAA regs being pulled up does any of this apply to a foreign registry airplane?
Click to expand...


Nope... They can use chewing gum and duct tape to hold the entire plane together.......:eek::hairraise::yikes:......................;)
 
Been working for a major airline for 25 years. I have never seen an ELT remote switch in the cockpit of any one of our aircraft from the 727 all the way to the 787. A remote switch wouldn't do much anyway since there are no fixed ELT's anywhere on the airplanes. the only ELT's I've ever seen are portable survival units in the cabin.
 
Silvaire said:
Okay enough, let's put this to bed once and for all. Read paragraph (f)(2) and get back to us.

FAR 91.207 Emergency Locator Transmitters
Click to expand...
If you want to really put this to bed, read what Flight Standards has to say under Aircraft Compliance, Appendix 4:
91.205
(b)(14) An emergency transmitter locator is not required by 91.207, however the B-777-200 is furnished with a minimum of 2 ELTs.

91.207
Emergency locator transmitter

This requirement does not apply to the B-777-200 when it is operated in scheduled flight by scheduled air carriers (paragraph (f)). Four options are available for ELT installation with either slide/raft or airplane installation.

http://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/fsb/b-777 _r7.htm​
dtuuri
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Yeah, and why the hell they were in the southern Indian Ocean to begin with. Even if the plane is/was found there, we still have a helluva mystery. I hope that if they've found the plane, they can find the CVR/FDR.
Click to expand...

Because the turn headed them for Lankawi, the closest airport to handle them after the roof opened up and upset the aerodynamics starting the fugoid, by 45,000' everybody was done for and the plane flew on that course at the new altitude it stabilized at accounting for the extra drag until it ran out of fuel. I think when eventually found (if) it'll be about 3/4s the way to where they were looking. I'm surprised a sub didn't follow the track line listening for the lingers on the boxes.
 
Last edited:
Luvrv8 said:
I will start this question with the statement I have never seen the cockpit of a 777 and have only flown on one one time. With all of this ELT stuff flying around and FAA regs being pulled up does any of this apply to a foreign registry airplane?
Click to expand...

Yes by ICAO standards every certified aircraft in the world should be ELT equipped.
Check this: http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/aviation-international-news/2008-05-02/new-elt-rules-icao

As per the above MH370 should have been ELT equipped

José
 
dtuuri said:
If you want to really put this to bed, read what Flight Standards has to say under Aircraft Compliance, Appendix 4:
91.205
(b)(14) An emergency transmitter locator is not required by 91.207, however the B-777-200 is furnished with a minimum of 2 ELTs.

91.207
Emergency locator transmitter

This requirement does not apply to the B-777-200 when it is operated in scheduled flight by scheduled air carriers (paragraph (f)). Four options are available for ELT installation with either slide/raft or airplane installation.

http://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/fsb/b-777 _r7.htm​
dtuuri
Click to expand...

Air transport planes air certified under FAA Part 25 not part 91.

Part 25
This part contains airworthiness standards for airplanes in the transport category.

Transport category airplanes are either:

Jets with 10 or more seats or a maximum takeoff weight (MTOW) greater than 12,500 pounds (5,670 kg); or
Propeller-driven airplanes with greater than 19 seats or a MTOW greater than 19,000 pounds (8,618 kg).
The Boeing 737 and later types, and Airbus A300 series, are well-known airplane types that were certificated to FAR Part 25.

Most of the Federal Aviation Regulations, including Part 25, commenced on February 1, 1965. Prior to that date, airworthiness standards for airplanes in the transport category were promulgated in Part 4b of the US Civil Air Regulations. The Boeing 707 and 727 are two well-known airplane types that were certificated to CAR Part 4b.

José
 
N801BH said:
Hmmmm..

Interesting... Based on the specs spelled out in a name brand ELT companies catalog, it appears that not only is it designed to go in a Boeing airliner. This detail pretty much dictates it passed all of Boeings tests for a proper interface...

"The Artex B406-4 transmits on all 3 emergency frequencies (121.5/243.0 and 406 MHz). The ELT automatically activates during a crash and transmits the standard swept tone on 121.5 and 243.0 MHz. Every 50 seconds for 520 milliseconds (long message protocol), the 406 MHz transmitter turns on and transmits an encoded digital message to the Cospas/Sarsat satellite system. The ELT can be programmed with the aircraft's 24-bit address as well as latitude/longitude information from the aircraft navigation system when used with the Artex ELT/NAV Interface -B (P/N 453-6501). The B406-4 is designed to interface with Boeing's Master Caution System in conjunction with the DZUS mounted cockpit remote panel. The mounting hardware for the B406-4 is compatible with all previous versions of Artex 406 MHz ELTs."

So... Maybe there is NO remote switch to activate it... Maybe it uses the FMS keypad .... Something simple like / CONTROL / ALT / DELETE/...:dunno:..:D
Click to expand...

So what do you do when there is no power to the FMS. That is why it needs to be a separate switch.

José
 
Henning said:
I'm surprised a sub didn't follow the track line listening for the lingers on the boxes.
Click to expand...

If a sub did that, I would be suprised if we ever hear about it :wink2: .
 
Silvaire said:
There are no secret pedal switches in the cockpit so do not under any circumstances attempt to gain access to the cockpit to inform the pilots of them - since they don't exist. :no:
Click to expand...
The fact that you denied that there is a secret pedal switch proves that there is a secret pedal switch. After all, if there was a secret pedal switch, you'd deny it. QED. :idea:
 
Silvaire said:
Been working for a major airline for 25 years. I have never seen an ELT remote switch in the cockpit of any one of our aircraft from the 727 all the way to the 787. A remote switch wouldn't do much anyway since there are no fixed ELT's anywhere on the airplanes. the only ELT's I've ever seen are portable survival units in the cabin.
Click to expand...

Here are some pictures of the 787 ELT that was called for an FAA AD

https://www.google.com/search?q=B78..._0FJTC2gXzvYCoAg&ved=0CHcQsAQ&biw=652&bih=350

FAA B787 ELT AD
http://www.flyingmag.com/news/faa-require-boeing-787-elt-inspections

José
 
Last edited:
Henning said:
Because the turn headed them for Lankawi, the closest airport to handle them after the roof opened up and upset the aerodynamics starting the fugoid, by 45,000' everybody was done for and the plane flew on that course at the new altitude it stabilized at accounting for the extra drag until it ran out of fuel. I think when eventually found (if) it'll be about 3/4s the way to where they were looking. I'm surprised a sub didn't follow the track line listening for the lingers on the boxes.
Click to expand...

I wonder how they will track down the pingers? The info I've found says they have a range of 2-3 km, which isn't much if you're having to search a big area.

Do they flood the area with air dropped sonobuoys trying to localize the signals, or do they send out a dozen ships or subs on parallel tracks listening to passive sonar? Whatever they do, it had better be quick, or finding the black boxes is going to be an even bigger challenge - time is running down for the battery life on the pingers.
 
kyleb said:
I wonder how they will track down the pingers? The info I've found says they have a range of 2-3 km, which isn't much if you're having to search a big area.

Do they flood the area with air dropped sonobuoys trying to localize the signals, or do they send out a dozen ships or subs on parallel tracks listening to passive sonar? Whatever they do, it had better be quick, or finding the black boxes is going to be an even bigger challenge - time is running down for the battery life on the pingers.
Click to expand...

A submarine sonarman can not only hear a shrimp fart but tell you which one did it and what it had for breakfast..
 
Sleepingsquirrel said:
A submarine sonarman can not only hear a shrimp fart but tell you which one did it and what it had for breakfast..
Click to expand...

So for quicker rescue you just get out the raft in the water and start farting. So who needs an ELT when a good fart will do better. I will make sure I eat plenty of beans before that overwater flight.

Thanks for the tip.:D

José
 
Last edited:
kyleb said:
I wonder how they will track down the pingers? The info I've found says they have a range of 2-3 km, which isn't much if you're having to search a big area.

Do they flood the area with air dropped sonobuoys trying to localize the signals, or do they send out a dozen ships or subs on parallel tracks listening to passive sonar? Whatever they do, it had better be quick, or finding the black boxes is going to be an even bigger challenge - time is running down for the battery life on the pingers.
Click to expand...

I heard today on NPR a short interview with the folks that found the Air France black boxes. In this case, they are saying- "Maybe we'll get lucky." They don't hold high hope that they will find them. Apparently, the ocean is really, really big, really, really deep and the area they have to search is many times larger than they had to do for Air France. Oh, and they have two weeks left before the black box pings go dead, part of that time is now being used up getting the equipment on site. Don't expect a resolution on this one ever... unless the conspiracy theorists are right.
 
Dav8or said:
I heard today on NPR a short interview with the folks that found the Air France black boxes. In this case, they are saying- "Maybe we'll get lucky." They don't hold high hope that they will find them. Apparently, the ocean is really, really big, really, really deep and the area they have to search is many times larger than they had to do for Air France. Oh, and they have two weeks left before the black box pings go dead, part of that time is now being used up getting the equipment on site. Don't expect a resolution on this one ever... unless the conspiracy theorists are right.
Click to expand...

Not only that, the area they are searching is a lot rougher than the AF crash area.
 
Plus, unlike AF447, MH370 was slightly off course.
 
Lindberg said:
The fact that you denied that there is a secret pedal switch proves that there is a secret pedal switch. After all, if there was a secret pedal switch, you'd deny it. QED. :idea:
Click to expand...

I've said too much already :rolleyes2:
 
Sleepingsquirrel said:
A submarine sonarman can not only hear a shrimp fart but tell you which one did it and what it had for breakfast..
Click to expand...

I could imagine towing sonars and simultaneously recording GPS positions, then using a bunch of digital sound processing to break out the pinger sound from the background noise at a much greater than normal range. They don't have to find the black boxes in the next two weeks, but it would really help if they could cut the search area to an area that is realistically surveyable by remote underwater vehicles.

Otherwise, someone's gonna spend a whole lot of time towing side scanning sonar or taking pictures of the ocean floor.
 
So why is it that large air carrier aircraft are not required to have ELTs like other aircraft? That just seems odd.
 
dans2992 said:
So why is it that large air carrier aircraft are not required to have ELTs like other aircraft? That just seems odd.
Click to expand...

The ones on Microsoft Airlines have no ELT.

José
 
kyleb said:
Otherwise, someone's gonna spend a whole lot of time towing side scanning sonar or taking pictures of the ocean floor.
Click to expand...

Not a job I would want to do at the confluence of the Indian and Southern Oceans.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top