New cylinders

Discussion in 'Maintenance Bay' started by Salty, Dec 29, 2017.

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Which would you choose, and why?

Poll closed Jan 5, 2018.
  1. Lycoming

    12 vote(s)
    75.0%
  2. Millenium

    2 vote(s)
    12.5%
  3. other

    2 vote(s)
    12.5%
  1. Salty

    Salty En-Route

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    So, I've decided to put all new cylinders on my O-360 for it's overhaul. The old ones are ok, but the cost difference between overhaul and all new is close enough I'd rather reset them all now during overhaul.

    Cost difference is roughly $800 cheaper for the millenniums (about $200 per cylinder).
     
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  2. Stewartb

    Stewartb Final Approach

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    I've had good service from my Cessna's Millenniums. I had an equally good experience with nickel Titans on an 0-320. Superior had an engine option that suited me so I bought a complete engine from them rather than Lycoming. I'm a fan of aftermarket cylinders.
     
  3. mondtster

    mondtster Pattern Altitude

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    Make sure you're comparing apples to apples. The aftermarket cylinders do not contain the same components as the OEMs do. Last I checked the price delta per cylinder was much smaller than that, when you actually compared the same components.

    Due to the lack of difference in cost, and there appear to be more ADs affecting aftermarket cylinders, I'm a fan of using Lycoming.
     
  4. Salty

    Salty En-Route

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    That's true. I believe the Millenium's don't come with rocker arms or piston pin. I'm not certain if the Lycomings do or not.
     
  5. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach

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    I don't think any of them come with rocker arms.
     
  6. mondtster

    mondtster Pattern Altitude

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    The Milleniums come with a rocker shaft, but no piston pin or plugs. The Lycomings come with piston pin, plugs, but no rocker shaft. That's what I recall from about a year ago, from the last engine I overhauled.

    I want to say that the price difference between cylinder kits once all the parts were collected was $50ish per cylinder. That amounts to nearly nothing in the final cost of overhauling the engine.
     
  7. BiffJ

    BiffJ Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I know the ECi Titans I got for my O-320 came with ringed piston with pin, valves with springs and the rocker shaft and gaskets. I didn't get rocker arms and didn't expect to. I was quite pleased with the cylinders and had no issues. I looked at the factory cylinders but they didn't have a nickel option and were about $200 more per jug. They didn't come with any more parts than the ECi jugs did.

    Frank
     
  8. Salty

    Salty En-Route

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    somehow "other" got dropped from the original poll. I added it now
     
  9. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Millenniums are made by Superior, and are the only after market cylinders now available, ECI is no longer in business, Chinese bought them out and shut them down because they also own Lycoming and TCM.
    Noe there is no after market cylinder that has a exhaust valve rotator.
    and all cylinders have nearly doubled in price in the last 5 years.
    no cylinders come with rocker arms.
     
  10. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Why add it? the only other option is rebuilt, the options you have are TCM, Lycoming, and Superior
     
  11. Stewartb

    Stewartb Final Approach

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    ECI was purchased by Continental and subsequently all Continental cylinder production moved to San Antonio. They still produce PMAd replacement cylinders for Lycomings in through-hardened steel and nickel bores. They also still produce experimental Titan engines.
     
  12. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    So. your saying TCM cylinders are ECI's, if so, that's good news.

    But that is not what my supplier says
    http://www.aircraft-specialties.com/titan-cylinder-complete-assy-steel-tist61-1dca/
     
  13. Salty

    Salty En-Route

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    Because, unlike you ;), I don't know what I don't know.
     
  14. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach

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  15. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    For the 0-200/0-300 they are the best. and only ones with a exhaust valve rotator.
     
  16. Stewartb

    Stewartb Final Approach

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    Last edited: Dec 29, 2017
  17. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach

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    The Chinese do NOT own Lycoming Tom.
     
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  18. mondtster

    mondtster Pattern Altitude

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    Here is where you can get the CMI version of the Titans. My understanding is that CMI bought ECI out for their PMA Lycoming parts not to get them off the market but so they could offer the products themselves.

    http://aeroinstock.com/air-boss-cylinder-assemblies-lycoming-engines/
     
  19. Stewartb

    Stewartb Final Approach

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    Continental ditched their nitrided barrels and use ECI's through-hardened barrels. That's a good thing for Continental owners. No more convincing yourselves that 50/80 compressions are good. ;)

    Superior uses through-hardened barrels, too, by the way.
     
  20. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    You are correct. That is at least the second time that I have seen that falsehood on POA. Not sure why it persists. I'm even thinking it might have been posted by the same person the last time. Lycoming is owned by AVCO who is owned by Textron. Last I checked, Textron was still American.

    Edit: Here is the last time he posted that BS. See post 12.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2017
  21. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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  22. MickYoumans

    MickYoumans Cleared for Takeoff

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    When my engine was overhauled I went with new Lycoming cylinder kits for this very reason. My mechanic said there were no ADs on the Lycoming cylinders. I have 200 hours on my new engine and I have been happy with my choice.
     
  23. Stewartb

    Stewartb Final Approach

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    Open the third link (Aviall) and turn the page by tapping the arrow on the right. 0-300 cylinders are in there.
     
  24. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach

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    Yes. Textron, which also owns Cessna, Beech and Bell Helicopters is a NYSE listed company.

    I'm sure there's nothing to prevent someone from China from buying some stock, but its not a Chinese owned company for sure.
     
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  25. Ted DuPuis

    Ted DuPuis Administrator Management Council Member

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    On a Lycoming I'd buy OEM Lycoming. I've never seen a factory new Lycoming cylinder not make it to TBO trouble-free. Can't say the same at all about aftermarket cylinders.

    China does NOT own Lycoming.
     
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  26. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    Ya but....you and I don't fly Lycoming engines. o_O
     
  27. kyleb

    kyleb En-Route

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    Continental San Antonio (was ECI/Titan) was closed a year or so ago. That manufacturing is now done at Continental's plant in Mobile. I toured the SA plant a couple of years ago.

    Based on what I hear at the aviation "water cooler", I would shy away from the ECI/Titan/PMA'd Lyclone parts from Continental.
     
  28. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach

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    Repent, and ye shall be saved. :D
     
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  29. Cap'n Jack

    Cap'n Jack Final Approach

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    How do the Chinese own Lycoming? Lycoming is owned by Textron, HQ in Rhode Island.
    Also, TCM hasn't been TCM in almost a decade now- it's been just CM. The T part is still a USA company.
     
  30. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    Ok.....
     

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  31. Paulie

    Paulie Line Up and Wait

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    Anyone have any bad experience with millennium cylinders? I'm torn between then and lycomings
     
  32. kyleb

    kyleb En-Route

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    Somebody will. Others won't. FYI, Barrett Precision Engines (a reputable shop) won't use ECI unless customer requested, but sees Superior and Lycoming cylinders as equally good.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2017
  33. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    All of our engines have been OH’d with Millenium’s with positive experiences for the most part. Millennium’s are arguably better than Lycoming, but with cylinder prices getting more competitive, AM brands are just marginally cheaper than Lycoming. They all have the same combustion chamber, exhaust and intake ports, etc. Personally, I don’t think you can go wrong with either, but if it were my own aircraft and I was calling the shots, I’d choose Lycoming over AM products.
     
  34. Getonit

    Getonit Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Are cylinders not repairable/overhaul able? Based on what I have read about continental cylinders new from the factory, it seems like there should be better options.
     
  35. mondtster

    mondtster Pattern Altitude

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    Oftentimes repair costs exceed the cost to buy new cylinder kits, and sometimes don't last as long as new kits. That doesn't seem like a particularly desirable spot to be in to me, but some people still elect to go down that path.

    With some engines repairing cylinders is your only option. Obviously you have to do what you have to, in order to make the engine useable again.
     
  36. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    They are depending on their condition. Sometimes it makes sense to repair the existing cylinder and other times it’s just best to get new, but the cylinder barrel can be remachined to restore it back to factory limits. Depends on the situation.
     
  37. kyleb

    kyleb En-Route

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    The issue is that overhauling a cylinder costs almost as much as a brand new one. So cylinder repairs are waay down from years ago when the OEM's charged outrageous prices for new cylinders.
     
  38. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    If you can do them supervised it isn't that bad.....and you can get a stud exchange with new Nickel for $600. That's a far cry from new costs....if you already have serviceable valves and piston and all the other items.

    New is much easier if you're the installer.
     
  39. kyleb

    kyleb En-Route

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    If you're willing to install a used exhaust valve, piston, etc., used is cheaper. I was thinking in terms of a cylinder rebuild which included a new valve, rings, piston, etc.
     
  40. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    I exchanged 3 cylinders with Gibson and was impressed with what came back. New Nickel walls, new guides, and new seats and studs....and freshly painted. Not bad for the price.

    You barely can get studs and exhaust port work for that.
     

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