Need Some Advice

AggieMike88 said:
Form of payment is one of the questions I ask during the scheduling of the ride. It appears to me they appreciate my asking so that this doesn't snag up the process on checkride day.
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My local DPE will now accept a check from me, after a few checkrides and sending many students his way. He will also do this for others he knows well. He will not do this for students he doesn't know. Apparently failing a checkride and then stopping payment on the check is a real thing.
 
BR_MIST said:
Once I get CFI is it reasonable to expect to get hired somewhere?
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Yes, but after all your students flunk because you ****ed the examiners off your future employment may be in question.
 
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Anymouse said:
BTW... You should still look him up and pay him. Although you might disagree, he did perform the service you were supposed to pay him for. You're not the first one to bust a checkride. And CFI is one of the most busted rides. It's almost a rite of passage.

Do the right thing and consider it a lesson learned. Oh, and pay him cash.
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This seems like the best response. The OP should check his pride, call the guy up and apologize, and go ahead and pay him for the first checkride. Then tell him he would like a second checkride and he'll pay him cash before the checkride starts. Honest apologies and making things right often go a long ways in correcting things.
 
BR_MIST said:
Minnesota. They aren't great but not horrible. Independents can make a career.
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There's a fair number of DPE's in Minnesota, unless your guy called each and every one why not try with another one? If you ****ed someone up at Cloquet or Duluth, try the guy out of Benson. There's gotta be a few down around Rochester, etc. If they hang up on you, you're screwed. If you haven't made a few calls yet you don't have all the information.

Also...why do you need it in 3 weeks, why the urgent timeframe?

Why does it have to be done in Minnesota? Fly down to someplace like Cedar Falls and finish up there, I loved their operation.

Just remember, that ride with the ASI will probably be...tough. If this guy riled you up, are ready to have even more scrutiny.
 
Sinistar said:
There's a fair number of DPE's in Minnesota, unless your guy called each and every one why not try with another one? If you ****ed someone up at Cloquet or Duluth, try the guy out of Benson. There's gotta be a few down around Rochester, etc. If they hang up on you, you're screwed. If you haven't made a few calls yet you don't have all the information.

Also...why do you need it in 3 weeks, why the urgent timeframe?

Why does it have to be done in Minnesota? Fly down to someplace like Cedar Falls and finish up there, I loved their operation.

Just remember, that ride with the ASI will probably be...tough. If this guy riled you up, are ready to have even more scrutiny.
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Something to keep in mind. The OP had a discontinuance on his check ride. IIRC, doesn't he have to continue with the same DPE?? I'm sure there's an exception or a way around it, but there needs to be a good reason I would imagine.
 
Sinistar said:
There's a fair number of DPE's in Minnesota, unless your guy called each and every one why not try with another one? If you ****ed someone up at Cloquet or Duluth, try the guy out of Benson. There's gotta be a few down around Rochester, etc. If they hang up on you, you're screwed. If you haven't made a few calls yet you don't have all the information.

Also...why do you need it in 3 weeks, why the urgent timeframe?

Why does it have to be done in Minnesota? Fly down to someplace like Cedar Falls and finish up there, I loved their operation.

Just remember, that ride with the ASI will probably be...tough. If this guy riled you up, are ready to have even more scrutiny.
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I kind of learned my lesson flying long distance to get a ride. It takes money to run the plane that far and you have the risk of failing and not being able to retest that day because the recommending instructor isn't at the airport. Out a lot of money.

The reason I want to do it in the next three weeks is because the FAA is reopened.

I've already finished the oral portion with an inspector. He grilled me. It wasn't an easy oral. I know I made a mistake and it's probably the toughest lesson I've learned in aviation. I did call around to try a couple other DPEs. I was even scheduled with a few of them. After they called the first DPE though then they all canceled on me. The last DPE was nice enough to let me know that as an ethical thing they won't test an applicant after a situation like this even if I squared up with the original one. That's when I was able to get the the first part of my ride from the FAA.
 
Anymouse said:
Something to keep in mind. The OP had a discontinuance on his check ride. IIRC, doesn't he have to continue with the same DPE?? I'm sure there's an exception or a way around it, but there needs to be a good reason I would imagine.
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No you don't need to continue. Unfortunately, this happens to be an areas in which I am an expert (not a proud one). You can go to whatever examiner/inspector/DPE you want. They have the prerogative to honor previous test credit though so you could end up doing the whole test over again.
 
Man you are screwed, you should go, with money in hand, fall on your sword with the original guy, apologize, pay him and ask if he can help you get through this.

You need to understand that the ethical thing the guy was talking about is that you are and continue to be unethical. Most people will forgive and forget with a sincere apology, that's how you fix this.

Edit: This also means the guy will most likely give you a ration of crap after you apologize, sit there, take your lumps, apologize again and ask him again for help. If he still won't help you, then try another, with the story up front and how you fixed it, hopefully you'll find one to help.
 
This is a great learning opportunity for the OP. I've also learned a lot from this thread. A lot of aviation magazines publish accident reports so other pilots can learn from other pilots' mistakes. Fortunately, the OP is alive and healthy, even though his career might be on life support. I concur with Fallsrider and PaulS about apologizing. It will hurt, but it'll be worth it, and will probably revive his career.

Then, down the line, maybe the OP would be less likely to p-ss off someone, knowing how hard it is to man up and apologize. I've had to apologize for my temper every now and again, and the people I apologize to are very magnanimous about accepting it.

So, OP, good luck, and let us know how it goes.
 
Finally got my CFI. Roughest checkride I've even taken to be sure.
 
So what was The Fringe FOI thing he busted you on on the first ride?
 
Congrats, you need to finish the story though, how did you do it?
 
BR_MIST said:
What are the two types of Errors?
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Intentional and Unintentional.
Benign and Malignant.
Towered and Non-towered.
:)

So in the end, was it an FAA ride or a DPE ride?
 
False. The two types of errors are a slip and a mistake.

To finish the story, it was an FAA ride. The FAA does not get involved with the rates the DPEs charge, it's entirely unregulated. In the event DPEs decline to test you (which they can for whatever reason they want), the FAA is obliged to provided an examiner for you at no cost. FAA checkrides take substantially more time and are more demanding, but the FAA in my opinion seems more ready to work with you during the checkride. DPEs on the other hand seem (in my limited experience) inclined to slam through a checklist and get the ride over with (pass or fail) cause they have better things to do. I'm still a little salty about that.

Lessons learned:
•I now know how not to do a checkride.
•Can't rush ratings and certificates no matter how hard you try.
•Aviation community is small so don't make people mad if you don't have to.
•You will never be prepared enough to sail through a CFI checkride... ever. There's is simply no way someone with under 5000 hours will have the depth and breath of knowledge, experience, and ability to communicate aviation concepts sufficiently. Any indication that you think you know what's up about Aviation is an instafail.
 
BR_MIST said:
What are the two types of Errors?
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"That question is too ambiguous. Could you please provide some context? Depending on the context the answer could vary."
That would have been my response. Because there are more than just two types of errors.
 
EdFred said:
"That question is too ambiguous. Could you please provide some context? Depending on the context the answer could vary."
That would have been my response. Because there are more than just two types of errors.
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I did ask for more clarification and he just repeated himself. Evidently according to the Aviation Instructors handbook there are only two types of errors and they are a Slip and a Mistake.

I'm not making stuff man. That's literally how those 10 minutes went down in the first ride with a DPE. I was pretty ticked.
 
BR_MIST said:
I did ask for more clarification and he just repeated himself. Evidently according to the Aviation Instructors handbook there are only two types of errors and they are a Slip and a Mistake.

I'm not making stuff man. That's literally how those 10 minutes went down in the first ride with a DPE. I was pretty ticked.
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Here it is, slip and mistake. Sometimes you just have to roll with it. I've been told that on a check ride, the examiner will trip you up, I guess they are looking at how you deal with it.

https://www.faa.gov/about/initiativ...tion_maintenance_-_chapter_14.human_error.pdf
 
BR_MIST said:
I did ask for more clarification and he just repeated himself. Evidently according to the Aviation Instructors handbook there are only two types of errors and they are a Slip and a Mistake.

I'm not making stuff man. That's literally how those 10 minutes went down in the first ride with a DPE. I was pretty ticked.
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Thats the problem with the archaic FOI. I showed it to current teachers and they were like "this crap is outdated 40 years." Which is what I pretty much led my CFI checkride offwith was that statement. I also made it know I'd been instructing martial arts and golf for a few years and continued on with how the FAA was shorting their instructors with available teaching methods. Took charge from the beginning, and wrapped up the oral around 90 minutes.
 
EdFred said:
Thats the problem with the archaic FOI. I showed it to current teachers and they were like "this crap is outdated 40 years." Which is what I pretty much led my CFI checkride offwith was that statement. I also made it know I'd been instructing martial arts and golf for a few years and continued on with how the FAA was shorting their instructors with available teaching methods. Took charge from the beginning, and wrapped up the oral around 90 minutes.
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Been a CFI for a little while now and I wouldn’t have gotten that one without context, and even then.

To the OP, not sure if you made right by the old DPE, but I would try, aviation is very very small, and the more experience I’ve gotten and years I’ve been around it, I keep seeing it’s even smaller than I thought before.

Understand most often when there is a issue, both sides screwed up to one degree or another, and both sides are right to one degree or another, end of the day ain’t like he killed your puppy, try to make it right.
 
BR_MIST said:
What are the two types of Errors?
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Trick question. FAA always has twice to four times as many items on their "lists". Who's gonna try to memorize a two item list, huh? I think your experience probably got FSDO's attention and this examiner will be in for some counseling. I hope so anyway. I usually give examiners the benefit of the doubt, but this is first rate BS. Nobody I knew ever did such a thing. I certainly never did and I heard a lot worse answers than "I don't know".
 
James331 said:
Been a CFI for a little while now and I wouldn’t have gotten that one without context, and even then.

To the OP, not sure if you made right by the old DPE, but I would try, aviation is very very small, and the more experience I’ve gotten and years I’ve been around it, I keep seeing it’s even smaller than I thought before.

Understand most often when there is a issue, both sides screwed up to one degree or another, and both sides are right to one degree or another, end of the day ain’t like he killed your puppy, try to make it right.
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I agree with this, if you want to be a CFI you need to deal with DPEs, that will be tough if you are shunned.
 
PaulS said:
I agree with this, if you want to be a CFI you need to deal with DPEs, that will be tough if you are shunned.
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I’d say if you want to be a pilot, especially make a living. It’s amazingly crazy how small the industry is. Like that degrees from Kevin bacon thing, but much fewer degrees
 
Even though your bad experience can pose challenges in the future, I would not make up with the DPE.
He is clearly abusing his privileges, and the only way to stop that behavior is to not reward it. Thank you for making a stand.
How can your not knowing the answer to his question have anything to do with your ability to teach people to fly? Absolutely ridiculous crap.
 
BR_MIST said:
I did ask for more clarification and he just repeated himself. Evidently according to the Aviation Instructors handbook there are only two types of errors and they are a Slip and a Mistake.

I'm not making stuff man. That's literally how those 10 minutes went down in the first ride with a DPE. I was pretty ticked.
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Sounds to me like you ticked him off first, and knowing he wasn't likely to get paid, he decided to fail you right away and not waste your time or his.

Not that I agree with his method.

I also find it interesting that you apparently haven't looked up the answer to the question you failed on.
 
MountainDude said:
Even though your bad experience can pose challenges in the future, I would not make up with the DPE.
He is clearly abusing his privileges, and the only way to stop that behavior is to not reward it. Thank you for making a stand.
How can your not knowing the answer to his question have anything to do with your ability to teach people to fly? Absolutely ridiculous crap.
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Clip4 said:
Yes, but after all your students flunk because you ****ed the examiners off your future employment may be in question.
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As the DPEs may be if he was that vengeful.

I’d wager he just wouldn’t make himself available for that CFIs students, worse case
 
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$700 seems a little high for a check ride. I think I paid $200 for my ppl/oral. That was 6-10-1995 and the flight portion lasted 1.7hrs..:)

Edit: Do they let you use a GPS for navigation on a check ride today? Took .5 hrs to get to Rapid City for check ride, 1.7 hrs check ride, .7 hrs to get home...:)
 
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First of all, never begin a sentence with "So,..." It is a sign of laziness.
Second, never **** off a DPE for doing his job and busting you. Five minutes? You must have really deserved it.
Third: You might want to consider another profession. Being a CFI is a mentorship position and you need to clean up your act.
With the NEW rules for DPE assignments, they can work anywhere in the US now. You can hire one to come to you, but you'll have to pay him up front.
 
OP, how old are you, and what’s your work background? Have you ever had a supervisory or leadership position, or been a trainer?
 
AKBill said:
$700 seems a little high for a check ride. I think I paid $200 for my ppl/oral. That was 6-10-1995 and the flight portion lasted 1.7hrs..:)

Edit: Do they let you use a GPS for navigation on a check ride today? Took .5 hrs to get to Rapid City for check ride, 1.7 hrs check ride, .7 hrs to get home...:)
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Seems fairly standard for an initial CFI. They run about $600 here (North Dakota) and I've heard them being upwards of $1000 in AZ/CA.
 
AKBill said:
$700 seems a little high for a check ride. I think I paid $200 for my ppl/oral. That was 6-10-1995 and the flight portion lasted 1.7hrs..:)

Edit: Do they let you use a GPS for navigation on a check ride today? Took .5 hrs to get to Rapid City for check ride, 1.7 hrs check ride, .7 hrs to get home...:)
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Adjusting for inflation, that's $330 in 2019 dollars. Also, do CFI check rides take longer than ones for PPL?
 
EdFred said:
Thats the problem with the archaic FOI. I showed it to current teachers and they were like "this crap is outdated 40 years." Which is what I pretty much led my CFI checkride offwith was that statement. I also made it know I'd been instructing martial arts and golf for a few years and continued on with how the FAA was shorting their instructors with available teaching methods. Took charge from the beginning, and wrapped up the oral around 90 minutes.
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I'm surprised the examiner let you get away with that. Some of these guys have HUGE chips on their shoulder.
 
dtuuri said:
Trick question. FAA always has twice to four times as many items on their "lists". Who's gonna try to memorize a two item list, huh? I think your experience probably got FSDO's attention and this examiner will be in for some counseling. I hope so anyway. I usually give examiners the benefit of the doubt, but this is first rate BS. Nobody I knew ever did such a thing. I certainly never did and I heard a lot worse answers than "I don't know".
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That was my initial thinking.

benyflyguy, you'd have to read the initial thread. It was about Errors.

My thinking regarding the checkride was that he had something come up that day and wanted me out of their. He was wasting no time getting things out of the way. He already had my check at the beginning of the ride so he didn't have any indication that there was going to be financial struggles. The other thing that kind of ticked me off about this guy was that he charged an extra 100 bucks for a paper 8710. That makes no sense

CFI initials are generally WAY more than PPL or anythings else just because it's the gateway checkride. Lots of examiners are of that mindset and I haven't decided whether I think it's a good thing or not.

I don't have any official teaching background but plenty of mentoring experience with coworkers etc.
 
BR_MIST said:
I'm surprised the examiner let you get away with that. Some of these guys have HUGE chips on their shoulder.
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Gotta be able to sell what you're peddling in a way that they want to buy it without you having to sell it. :D
 
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