NBC Media Helicopter Down Los Angeles

[Velocity173]

View attachment 155036

This chart? That's according to the google-fu for the AS350 B3.

In general it looks like at the heaviest 500 ft is zero margin with a pretty steep slope to build fwd speed. 1k AGL would have been way easier to get a survivable glide/autorotation, if I'm reading that chart correctly.

I'm just some casual observer on this one, but OGE in non-CASEVAC life sounds like all hat no cattle affair to me, especially if you ain't getting a DFC out of the deal. I figured with how gucci modern gimbaled/gyro stab cameras are, they could keep scooting around and still get the jist of whatever like and subscribe lookie loo their employer was trying to get.

Yep that’s it. 800 ft is doable but he would still have to react quickly and get the collective down while abruptly lowering the nose down. I just saw a dash cam vid of the accident and he really had a flat profile coming down. Maybe a little nose down.

We do 1,000 ft hover failures in the B407 sim and even expecting it, it takes about 500 ft to get to 60-65kts. They (407/Astar) aren’t technically low or high inertia rotors but you still want to minimize droop initially and carry enough speed (min ROD) for adequate decel. Easier said than done though. It’s one thing to have a canned scenario in a sim, whole other over a densely populated area in the real world.

 

[Mark K]

Yes, but: How many of those hundreds of square miles actually appear on the news each day? How much Jet-A is being burned in the hope that somewhere, someone will start a police chase or do some other act worthy of making it on the air?

"We're hovering live over downtown Los Angeles, where five hours ago, a tragedy occurred...."

Understand there are some regulatory hurdles, but one has to wonder if the regulations are causing more issues than they solve. I wonder if the drones could be carried in the helicopters; which land nearby and deploy the drones rather than hovering for hours over a crash at an intersection.

Put a Police helicopter over the scene with a camera operator who provides coverage for anyone who wants it.

The current situation largely came about because of competition; Channel 7 wants to boast that it has a helicopter like Channel 11 does. I doubt the public knowledge is boosted very much. Les Nessman had the right approach.....

Ron Wanttaja

While you may be right in this isolated case, I would hesitate to go down this road on principle. The non aviation general public is very suspicious of GA as well as helicopters. If we make a value judgement that news helicopters are too risky, well, the average non aviation inclined person may decide that their local GA airport is too risky as well. They'll say, "Look, can't you just have as much fun flying a DJI as your RV14?" You don't really need to fly a GA plane...right...And God forbid an "experimental..."

Although tragic, I think I have to support a news organization's freedom to fly a helicopter. Otherwise, we all may be next.

 

[hindsight2020]

Yep that’s it. 800 ft is doable but he would still have to react quickly and get the collective down while abruptly lowering the nose down. I just saw a dash cam vid of the accident and he really had a flat profile coming down. Maybe a little nose down.

We do 1,000 ft hover failures in the B407 sim and even expecting it, it takes about 500 ft to get to 60-65kts. They (407/Astar) aren’t technically low or high inertia rotors but you still want to minimize droop initially and carry enough speed (min ROD) for adequate decel. Easier said than done though. It’s one thing to have a canned scenario in a sim, whole other over a densely populated area in the real world.

I know little of the behavior of these things when the power gets chopped, but I take it that it's a quick onset wrt loss of energy on that rotor? Like you get that horn and it's dump both hands now! or it locks you into free fall type thing?

Lots of failed glide fatals in fixed wing essentially occur because of the incredulity/startle effect of "I can't believe this is actually happening", which creates scenarios where the pitchdown isn't executed promptly enough, and their fate is set. There's a lot of bartering that goes on when powerplants go, and people end up getting themselves slow beyond recovery. Or incorrectly coping, by insisting on energy-dumb choices like turnbacks to runways below 1k AGL.

Back to this accident, I still ponder the question of the relative necessity or lack thereof of doing one's job outside of the aircraft's recovery envelope, specifically on these single engine types. That just sounds gratuitous for a non-wartime job, or law enforcement equivalent. And if twins are non-starter overkills for this "mission", then perhaps drones are indeed a better solution in the agggregate. Horses for courses type of thing. It's not like they need the payload capes, as is the case for your job for instance. From a surveillance pov, way cheaper alternatives in the market, ATC second order effects not withstanding.

 

[Piperonca]

Yep that’s it. 800 ft is doable but he would still have to react quickly and get the collective down while abruptly lowering the nose down. I just saw a dash cam vid of the accident and he really had a flat profile coming down. Maybe a little nose down.

We do 1,000 ft hover failures in the B407 sim and even expecting it, it takes about 500 ft to get to 60-65kts. They (407/Astar) aren’t technically low or high inertia rotors but you still want to minimize droop initially and carry enough speed (min ROD) for adequate decel. Easier said than done though. It’s one thing to have a canned scenario in a sim, whole other over a densely populated area in the real world.

Makes me wonder how much recurrent emergency procedures training he got in a flight department of one. Will give credit due to the nature of this particular malfunction but it should be muscle memory to get the nose down regardless. It seems to be that old thing—nobody wants to push the stick forward in a panic.

 

[Kenny Phillips]

While I haven't seen any reports other helicopters were present during yesterday's incident, the July 2007 midair collision between two news helicopters in Phoenix is a tragic example of those pressures you mention.

There were a total of four at the time of the accident, I believe. It was a horrible bus accident, an SUV T-boned it, but that death toll was doubled by the helicopter crash.

 

[Velocity173]

I know little of the behavior of these things when the power gets chopped, but I take it that it's a quick onset wrt loss of energy on that rotor? Like you get that horn and it's dump both hands now! or it locks you into free fall type thing?

Lots of failed glide fatals in fixed wing essentially occur because of the incredulity/startle effect of "I can't believe this is actually happening", which creates scenarios where the pitchdown isn't executed promptly enough, and their fate is set. There's a lot of bartering that goes on when powerplants go, and people end up getting themselves slow beyond recovery. Or incorrectly coping, by insisting on energy-dumb choices like turnbacks to runways below 1k AGL.

Back to this accident, I still ponder the question of the relative necessity or lack thereof of doing one's job outside of the aircraft's recovery envelope, specifically on these single engine types. That just sounds gratuitous for a non-wartime job, or law enforcement equivalent. And if twins are non-starter overkills for this "mission", then perhaps drones are indeed a better solution in the agggregate. Horses for courses type of thing. It's not like they need the payload capes, as is the case for your job for instance. From a surveillance pov, way cheaper alternatives in the market, ATC second order effects not withstanding.

Well you can see it the vid it took him about 3-4 secs to get the low Nr horn to go off so his reaction in getting the collective down wasn’t that bad. The problem was the lack of immediate nose down. I believe their min ROD for an auto is the same as ours at 55 kias. Even at that speed, she’s really mushy in the decel. The bottom just feels like it’s dropping out and you don’t get much in the way of arresting the descent. 65-67 kts is optimum for an auto in these things.

The other problem is, at a hover a typical helicopter is nose up. Obviously varies with type, CG, but OGE with the increased downwash on the tail, probably looking at around 5-6 degrees. So with a power failure you’re pushing all the way through the horizon and at his altitude, I’d say he needed at least 10 degrees nose down. Kinda like engine failure in a fixed while conducting slow flight. If it’s at low altitude, you gotta be aggressive and get the nose down.

 

[brien23]

My sympathy for the one dead on the ground, as for the ones in the news helicopter chasing a headline, move on nothing to see here.

 

[SoCal 182 Driver]

My sympathy for the one dead on the ground, as for the ones in the news helicopter chasing a headline, move on nothing to see here.

And if you crashed and someone said that about you...how do you think your family would feel? These were two journalists doing their jobs. A bus crash isn't a headline, but it is news. Perhaps you can show some grace.

 

[bonefishpete]

And if you crashed and someone said that about you...how do you think your family would feel? These were two journalists doing their jobs. A bus crash isn't a headline, but it is news. Perhaps you can show some grace.

I get it. You fly in anything other than a Part 121 aircraft you are taking a chance. It’s the nature of the business. If you’re riding in such an aircraft and not a pilot then the pilot should inform you of the risks you’re taking.
I feel sorry for the innocent people killed on the ground like the five in Miami. They didn’t ask for that.

If I spin into the ground especially if it’s my fault rag on me all you want.

 

[SoCal 182 Driver]

I get it. You fly in anything other than a Part 121 aircraft you are taking a chance. It’s the nature of the business. If you’re riding in such an aircraft and not a pilot then the pilot should inform you of the risks you’re taking.

I have no doubt that the pilot and reporter were well-versed in the risks. That doesn't mean their deaths aren't worthy of compassion. The dead (including the person on the ground) didn't wake up thinking, "this is my last day on earth." Instead, at least the two in the helicopter, went to work and did their jobs. The comment by @brien23 about their deaths that people should "move on nothing to see here" is, frankly, heartless and shows lack of compassion and grace.

 

[Velocity173]

Good vid on a high OGE hover engine failure practice. Obviously you can’t discount the fact the pilot knew this was coming. Didn’t even droop the rotor because he was ready with collective. But, it demonstrates how quickly you have to get that nose down and get sufficient auto speed. He has the benefit of a high inertia rotor as well…which is nice.

 

[Den60]

Yeah 4,700 FPM vertically is going to be a rough ride. I’ve done vertical autos in the sim and once you droop it so bad you’re counting blades, she’s violent. Just getting the nose down and getting a little airspeed can make a huge difference in a successful auto from a high OGE hover.

Can’t tell if he got any engine power back but if he got into settling with power, that’s also a rough ride. I do that in the sim as well and the whole thing shakes.

Looking at the post crash pictures, some of the rotor seems remarkedly intact. Can you even push the nose over with little to no rotation?

 

[Kenny Phillips]

And if you crashed and someone said that about you...how do you think your family would feel? These were two journalists doing their jobs. A bus crash isn't a headline, but it is news. Perhaps you can show some grace.

A triple-fatal bus crash with an embedded SUV is certainly headline news in most cities. The helicopter crash made it national.

 

[wanttaja]

A triple-fatal bus crash with an embedded SUV is certainly headline news.

The helicopter accident occurred two hours after the bus crash. Other than the desire to plaster "LIVE" across the screen, what was the advantage of continual aerial coverage?

Ron Wanttaja

 

[Kenny Phillips]

A triple-fatal bus crash with an embedded SUV is certainly headline news.

The helicopter accident occurred two hours after the bus crash. Other than the desire to plaster "LIVE" across the screen, what was the advantage of continual aerial coverage?

Ron Wanttaja

So many people are addicted to the news. Unless it involves an airplane, I don't give it more than a few minutes. But many do.

 

[Velocity173]

Looking at the post crash pictures, some of the rotor seems remarkedly intact. Can you even push the nose over with little to no rotation?

Yeah at impact those blades weren’t spinning fast but he had Nr established during the auto for several seconds. This aircraft wasn’t in free fall from 800 ft up. He initially drooped the rotor (understandably) but then did a good job of regaining it. That’s when like the vid above, he should’ve gotten the nose down.

Honestly, with the speed he had (40 kts ish) I think he would’ve been better off landing on the roof of the building off the nose. I think if he just maintained that attitude and cushioned with collective, their momentum would carry them on top of the building. It appears he made a last second decision to flare and come straight down between the buildings. That lost all his Nr and the low Nr audio came on. Either way though, just not many options.

 

[SoCal 182 Driver]

The helicopter accident occurred two hours after the bus crash. Other than the desire to plaster "LIVE" across the screen, what was the advantage of continual aerial coverage?

Ron Wanttaja

The exact point I made in another forum. What was the point of a lengthy OGE hover at a low altitude for any amount of time other than that necessary to get a few shots of the accident? The scene was static. Nothing was going to change.

 

[Velocity173]

You @Bell206 you know anything about this EOS? Seems like it cuts fuel on the overspeed but doesn’t relight? Beginning to think it was just a simple overspeed and not a break in the drive shaft.

https://canadianhelicopterforum.ca/topic/18112-lts101-700-astar-b2d2-overspeed-vs-flame-out/

 

[Bell206]

Makes me wonder how much recurrent emergency procedures training he got in a flight department of one.

Most of these helicopters are owned/operated by existing aviation companies vs owned by the station. For example, US Helicopters Inc operates a fleet of AS350s across multiple states for news stations. So its more than a one-man show.

what was the advantage of continual aerial coverage?

Perhaps inquire with the 100+ news stations that still use helicopters for news gathering? While the numbers have declined over the past 15 years, they haven't dropped that much and its still a solid market on the rotorcraft side as well as the tour business even with their past safety record.

ou @Bell206 you know anything about this EOS?

The EOS on the LTS-101 will only modulate fuel flow when it senses an overspeed. I can't open your link but I believe if that is the Canadian Super D that flamed out during an overspeed event it was due to a fuel pump issue and not the EOS.

 

[SoCal 182 Driver]

Makes me wonder how much recurrent emergency procedures training he got in a flight department of one.

My understanding is that the pilot and reporter were employed by Angel City Air, which supplies helicopters under contract to several local stations. No idea what their recurrent emergency procedure training is, however.

Interesting factoid - Angel City Air is a subsidiary of Welk Aviation. The "Welk" in the name is Larry Welk, who is the grandson of TV bandleader Lawrence Welk.

 

[Den60]

Yeah at impact those blades weren’t spinning fast but he had Nr established during the auto for several seconds. This aircraft wasn’t in free fall from 800 ft up. He initially drooped the rotor (understandably) but then did a good job of regaining it. That’s when like the vid above, he should’ve gotten the nose down.

Honestly, with the speed he had (40 kts ish) I think he would’ve been better off landing on the roof of the building off the nose. I think if he just maintained that attitude and cushioned with collective, their momentum would carry them on top of the building. It appears he made a last second decision to flare and come straight down between the buildings. That lost all his Nr and the low Nr audio came on. Either way though, just not many options.

Yeah, the roof looked clearer, though you are going to have to deal with multiple AC units. After the first stall waring (well, that's what I call it) I was wondering why he didn't drop the nose. Wonder, though, about the camera. I'm guessing it has some stabilzation feature to keep the shot level.

 

[hindsight2020]

def interested to hear what kind of recurrent training these helo subcontracting deals carried. Is this part 91?

 

[AquaLand]

Is this part 91?

During the NTSB briefing, the IIC stated that the accident flight was conducted under Part 91.

 

[Nick D]

Video

 

[SoCal 182 Driver]

Video

Gut wrenching. RIP.

 

[RyanB]

Video

Dang, that came down a lot faster than it looked from the onboard camera.

 

[AquaLand]

Dang, that came down a lot faster than it looked from the onboard camera.

If the ADS-B data is valid, the last data point vertical speed is about 53 mph. Combined with the 43 kt GS, I calculated a total velocity vector magnitude of about 72 mph.

Even without the post-crash fire, I doubt this crash was survivable.

 

[hindsight2020]

Dang, that came down a lot faster than it looked from the onboard camera.

It's probably a Gimbaled/gyro-stablized camera. It's the same visual effect as when one padlocks to the threshold with a sink rate thinking one got the runway made,and not realizing you're short until the visual elongation "ground rush" effect, as the periphery finally fills your central FOV.

It's likely she had that camera locked to the bus accident POI (far away), so the frame looks slow to the viewer. Same concept as eye looking far away makes things look slow moving.

 

[k9medic]

Well I take it you know what an autorotation is? In this case, the aircraft is hovering and has has some sort of power interruption. Personally I’m leaning towards engine gear box / output shaft (goes to xmsn) failure. With a power interruption, your only option is to autorotate. In this case, instead of coming down at say 60 kts at a nice 1,800 FPM ROD, they came down vertically and 4,700 FPM. In a vertical auto with zero airspeed, you’ll get extremely high rpm but crazy decent rates (3,000-7,000) depending on helicopter. Unfortunately the increase in rpm is no match for the inertia of coming straight down. From an IGE hover you can pull off a successful auto but from several hundred feet OGE, odds are slim. Rotor decay is rapid and it’ll have little effect in arresting the descent rate. In the case in question, in appears he got the collective down because the low rotor audio (steady tone) went away. Unfortunately down low you can hear it returning and still probably 100 ft up. That’s because he’s drooped the rotor again because that collective is up in his arm pit. Once you run out of rotor Nr, she’s in free fall.

Now that I look at the ADS-B data, they weren’t as low as I thought. I’d say 800 agl? Don’t have a an Astar HV diagram on me but they’re probably out of the avoidance area. Still not optimum in the event of power failures though. You’d have to be Johnny on the spot with getting the collective and nose down to get any acceptable airspeed.

I do some "other flying work" in a B407 for a government organization and attend training twice a year where we train zero airspeed autorotations from approximately 1000' AGL. I also serve as an IP for this organization and train the same in house.

A vast majority of these training evolutions are unannounced so the pilot is not anticipating the event. The entry has to be rather agressive to get the Nr back into the green and there is little to no flare at the end. Generally we can get 45-55kts out of the 407 using forward airspeed. It is a VERY aggressive recovery at the end and the descent profile looks similar to what the CCTV video shows of the accident helicopter. We have found that with as little as 10kts of airspeed (or relative wind) the recovery is far less agressive. From the helicopter, it appears that you are stationary anyway. If need be for the task, we will descent slowly with a little bit of forward airspeed so that we can stay on target longer.

FWIW, I also tend to give engine failures just when pilots are initiaing the recovery from VRS/SWP. I'm sneaky like that.

With regard to the post crash fire, I would be intersted to hear if that aircraft had the fuel tank replaced with a crash resistant one. There have been MANY folks seriously injured or killed due to Astar post crash fires that would have otherwise survived the crash.

Back in 2015 there was an Astar crash where Pat Mahaney was killed and 2 crew were seriously burned. From the NTSB report " Contributing to the severity of the injuries was the helicopter’s fuel system, which was not crash resistant and facilitated a fuel-fed postcrash fire."

This event resulted in an SAIB from Airbus but was not an AD.

 

[Velocity173]

I do some "other flying work" in a B407 for a government organization and attend training twice a year where we train zero airspeed autorotations from approximately 1000' AGL. I also serve as an IP for this organization and train the same in house.

A vast majority of these training evolutions are unannounced so the pilot is not anticipating the event. The entry has to be rather agressive to get the Nr back into the green and there is little to no flare at the end. Generally we can get 45-55kts out of the 407 using forward airspeed. It is a VERY aggressive recovery at the end and the descent profile looks similar to what the CCTV video shows of the accident helicopter. We have found that with as little as 10kts of airspeed (or relative wind) the recovery is far less agressive. From the helicopter, it appears that you are stationary anyway. If need be for the task, we will descent slowly with a little bit of forward airspeed so that we can stay on target longer.

FWIW, I also tend to give engine failures just when pilots are initiaing the recovery from VRS/SWP. I'm sneaky like that.

With regard to the post crash fire, I would be intersted to hear if that aircraft had the fuel tank replaced with a crash resistant one. There have been MANY folks seriously injured or killed due to Astar post crash fires that would have otherwise survived the crash.

Back in 2015 there was an Astar crash where Pat Mahaney was killed and 2 crew were seriously burned. From the NTSB report " Contributing to the severity of the injuries was the helicopter’s fuel system, which was not crash resistant and facilitated a fuel-fed postcrash fire."

This event resulted in an SAIB from Airbus but was not an AD.

Wish we could train VRS in the aircraft but you and I know that’s not gonna happen. Got sim next month though and every time we finish up and they say “wanna see anything else?” I request VRS. Not sure how accurate the sim is but it seems like you've got to get almost 1,000 FPM to get into it. There’s the whole “300 FPM” teaching but I think this chart is accurate for individual type.

Engine failure initiating VRS is just mean!

 

[Bell206]

From the NTSB report " Contributing to the severity of the injuries was the helicopter’s fuel system, which was not crash resistant and facilitated a fuel-fed postcrash fire."

Except there’s more at play than just the fuel tank. Its also the reason no AD was released over this issue and same reason why no AD was ever issued against SEL recip aircraft which have a much greater rate of fuel system impact failures vs survivable injury. Even your 407 could have a similar “contributing” factor post-impact as it only has a very limited ELOS against such failures.

 

[Piperonca]

SEL recip aircraft which have a much greater rate of fuel system impact failures vs survivable injury.

Reference? What does mean to a pilot in simple terms? Thanks

 

[Bell206]

Reference? What does mean to a pilot in simple terms? Thanks

One of the references I recall was in relation to shoulder harness installs in your average Cessna or Piper vs secondary types of injuries like from fire or drowning. But in the context above it was merely to represent why no AD was released as its more than just the fuel tanks at issue.

 

[Piperonca]

One of the references I recall was in relation to shoulder harness installs in your average Cessna or Piper vs secondary types of injuries like from fire or drowning. But in the context above it was merely to represent why no AD was released as its more than just the fuel tanks at issue.

Makes sense.

 

[k9medic]

Except there’s more at play than just the fuel tank. Its also the reason no AD was released over this issue and same reason why no AD was ever issued against SEL recip aircraft which have a much greater rate of fuel system impact failures vs survivable injury. Even your 407 could have a similar “contributing” factor post-impact as it only has a very limited ELOS against such failures.

What I was referring to was in the Astar there may have been a chance that they survived the initial impact. I think those seats are evaluated at 30 G’s.

I don’t disagree that there was more to play in this situation, and even in Pat’s. For that particular event, the initial cause was failure to turn the hydraulics on.

Unfortunately, just like anything else in the initial stages of an event like this, this is purely speculative.

 

[kayoh190]

I just thought I'd say that this conversation has been really interesting and educational.

...but it doesn't change the fact that you helicopter guys are friggin' weirdos.

 

[Jeff Wesell]

I know the correct intent of the headline on it and I am absolutely not making light of this tragedy and the loss of three. Just was a little freaked (irony wise) that Welk Aviation has this as the lead banner on their corporate site.

 

[Bell206]

What I was referring to was in the Astar there may have been a chance that they survived the initial impact. I think those seats are evaluated at 30 G’s.

From previous pics, this aircraft had the standard B2 bucket seats installed which are rated around "0.25 Gs" provided they stay attached to the floor tracks. One of the main reasons you see AS350s at the top of this survivability list is not the fuel tank per se, but that most of the cabin is secondary structure with just a few beams under the cabin floor that tie into the primary structure "box" behind the cabin. So while those newer stroker-G seats are great, they can lose effectiveness when the underlying structure fails before the seat strokes completely during deceleration. For comparison, the 407 cabin sits solidly within the primary structure box.

 

[3393RP]

With regard to the post crash fire, I would be intersted to hear if that aircraft had the fuel tank replaced with a crash resistant one. There have been MANY folks seriously injured or killed due to Astar post crash fires that would have otherwise survived the crash.

If the helicopter was equipped with a modified fuel tank system, I think the impact with the pair of Conex containers made it moot. Those hella sturdy boxes were significantly deformed. But it appears that even if the helicopter had found clear ground, the outcome would likely have been the same. The rate of descent was extreme, and the insightful explanation by @Velocity173 of cockpit alarms, the possible failure modes, and what limited resources the pilot had is appreciated.

I try to avoid speculation regarding rotary wing mishaps, because my limited hours in turbine helicopters coincided with the Reagan administration. The members here that have significant experience with the breed provide excellent commentary.

 

[FlightmechH3]

Saw the security video. There was no way they survived the impact itself.