Navworx receives a "stop order" from FAA

The biggest problem with the 345 is a single 422 port. so if you have an mfd like a GMX200 , you havevto choose between trafffic and wx on the GMX, or a flightstream BT. Can't have both.
 
Seems to me according to their site it supports both wx and traffic, that said I could care less about stale weather in my 120kt plane, I'll just look out the window, most of my missions are more contact type flying and between my eyeballs, altimeter settings and OAT, I'm good, the traffic would be a fun thing to have, but I already have TIS, which kicks on around most busy airspace anyways, so meh, whatever.

Sure as heck not spending that kind of money for old weather, so selling my 330 and kicking in big bucks, F' that noise, and that 345 doesn't even have a anonymous mode does it? Sounds like a rip off.

ADS-B out selectable, and of course there is the on/off and the standby buttons.

You can't get some things by looking out the window but the 345 datalink gets this:

 
It looks like the 345 will even provide GPS position source to a WiFi-only ipad. That's interesting because I need a newer one and don't want to buy the 4G one if I don't have to.




I
 
The biggest problem with the 345 is a single 422 port. so if you have an mfd like a GMX200 , you havevto choose between trafffic and wx on the GMX, or a flightstream BT. Can't have both.

Unless you have at least one GTN.
 
ADS-B out selectable, and of course there is the on/off and the standby buttons.

You can't get some things by looking out the window but the 345 datalink gets this:


So can I select a anonymous mode?

As for the weather, I get everything I need looking out the windows, and I'm not going IFR with CBs since I don't have onboard radar, so most everything on that list isn't really needed for me.
 
It looks like the 345 will even provide GPS position source to a WiFi-only ipad. That's interesting because I need a newer one and don't want to buy the 4G one if I don't have to...


I

I noticed that as well when I was checking the Garmin site. I run FF on a wifi-only iPad. What is not clear is if the 345 will provide the GPS position if it is getting that from a WAAS GPS navigator, or if that capability requires one buy the internal WAAS GPS option for the 345?

I am waiting for my GNS 530 to return from Kansas after the WAAS upgrade. Still have not decided which is the best transponder to pair it with for ADS-B OUT to replace the KT-76A.
 
I noticed that as well when I was checking the Garmin site. I run FF on a wifi-only iPad. What is not clear is if the 345 will provide the GPS position if it is getting that from a WAAS GPS navigator, or if that capability requires one buy the internal WAAS GPS option for the 345?

I am waiting for my GNS 530 to return from Kansas after the WAAS upgrade. Still have not decided which is the best transponder to pair it with for ADS-B OUT to replace the KT-76A.
I'm at the same place.....:(

Either the 330ES or the KT74....but what gets displayed on the 530W?...TIS-A?
 
I noticed that as well when I was checking the Garmin site. I run FF on a wifi-only iPad. What is not clear is if the 345 will provide the GPS position if it is getting that from a WAAS GPS navigator, or if that capability requires one buy the internal WAAS GPS option for the 345?

I am waiting for my GNS 530 to return from Kansas after the WAAS upgrade. Still have not decided which is the best transponder to pair it with for ADS-B OUT to replace the KT-76A.


I don't think it matter what the source is I think it will forward the GPS if available. I say that because there is no differentiation in the install manual. I'm planning on having a GTN650 forwarding position to the GTX345 by the end of February and will let you know what I find. A friend already did the same but uses a flight stream 210 which I don't plan on doing.

I know one who has 430w & gtx345 on vansairforce.com, I'll ask him too.
 
So can I select a anonymous mode?

As for the weather, I get everything I need looking out the windows, and I'm not going IFR with CBs since I don't have onboard radar, so most everything on that list isn't really needed for me.

I'm not entirely sure but what I've seen ES is selectable, I think, that would disable the mode S squawk as well as the ADS-B message. Only way to be sure would to try it during a transponder inspection that can pick up the additional data and turn off the ES.

The GTX345 Pilot Guide says ADS-B out is controllable.

The GTN650 trainer, in the transponder remote control page, you can shut off ES.
 
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I don't think it matter what the source is I think it will forward the GPS if available. I say that because there is no differentiation in the install manual. I'm planning on having a GTN650 forwarding position to the GTX345 by the end of February and will let you know what I find. A friend already did the same but uses a flight stream 210 which I don't plan on doing.

I know one who has 430w & gtx345 on vansairforce.com, I'll ask him too.

Thank you. Appreciate any insight you can provide.
Other than the GNS my panel is a fine example of 1970s first generation King gear, much of which is starting to act its age. Too bad that stuff hasn't appreciated like classic cars or contemporary art from that era. :tongue:

So the New Year project is to bankrupt the family finances with a serious center stack upgrade; remove the ancient audio panel, intercom, ADF and transponder. Keep the GNS navigators and rebuild around them.

Things were sure simpler in the old days. The biggest decision was Narco or Collins or, if one could afford it, King Silver Crown. Now the proliferation of choices drives a narrow, often subtle level of differences between offerings at any given price point, and the homework research sleuthing is enough to cause headaches. :D
 
Thank you. Appreciate any insight you can provide.
Other than the GNS my panel is a fine example of 1970s first generation King gear, much of which is starting to act its age. Too bad that stuff hasn't appreciated like classic cars or contemporary art from that era. :tongue:

So the New Year project is to bankrupt the family finances with a serious center stack upgrade; remove the ancient audio panel, intercom, ADF and transponder. Keep the GNS navigators and rebuild around them.

Things were sure simpler in the old days. The biggest decision was Narco or Collins or, if one could afford it, King Silver Crown. Now the proliferation of choices drives a narrow, often subtle level of differences between offerings at any given price point, and the homework research sleuthing is enough to cause headaches. :D

I hear you. I've spent about 16 months in maintenance doing all kinds of things when my dad bought me a new PS Engineering audio panel which led me to tweaking everything in the panel for the future, installing provision for the 650 & 345 hoping I could afford to buy them soon and slide them in. I dumped a KA134 audio panel, a GNC-250XL that was randomly rebooting, a KN53 w/o GS for one with a G/S, and some other small stuff.

I just had revision surgery on an amputated foot that didn't go very well so radios this year is looking iffy. Happily the foot is doing much better, ortho was lobbying to amputate below the knee, they said that just a few days before my birthday this month. Been stressful but starting to get excited because I think everything will work out now, including radios
 
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NavWorx put out a scathing letter about their experiences with the FAA...

http://navworx.com/

If this is true,

NavWorx has my respect for protecting the existing 700 customers, and the FAA, well, just reaffirming that most three letter government agencies really don't give a hoot about the citizens who pay their wages.
 
NavWorx put out a scathing letter about their experiences with the FAA...

http://navworx.com/

Looks like they're going to play it from the safety aspect. Smart. Be interesting to see how FAA spins it into the device not being safe.

Because we are all basking in the warm fuzzy feeling of safety and security about ADS-B, aren't we? ;)
 
Looks like they're going to play it from the safety aspect. Smart. Be interesting to see how FAA spins it into the device not being safe.

Because we are all basking in the warm fuzzy feeling of safety and security about ADS-B, aren't we? ;)
There has to be more to that story. It just doesn't jive. The FAA would know they'd have a letter to the contrary... is there one in the middle that we aren't aware of yet? Perhaps something later was identified that caused the approvals to be rescinded?
 
There has to be more to that story. It just doesn't jive. The FAA would know they'd have a letter to the contrary... is there one in the middle that we aren't aware of yet? Perhaps something later was identified that caused the approvals to be rescinded?

You're kidding, right? (Perhaps I've filed and then had to go pull my copies of paperwork sent to government offices to show them what they said, or filed again, and filed a third time... one too many times overall, to think even inside a single office, anyone in those bureaucracies knows what the guy or gal in the office right next to theirs sent out. They usually don't.)
 
This is something I've never had to endure previously. Does anyone see any chance that the FAA will back down on this? I have no feel for the NPRM process and whether or not the comments have any effect on the outcome...
 
You're kidding, right? (Perhaps I've filed and then had to go pull my copies of paperwork sent to government offices to show them what they said, or filed again, and filed a third time... one too many times overall, to think even inside a single office, anyone in those bureaucracies knows what the guy or gal in the office right next to theirs sent out. They usually don't.)
For much smaller things, sure, I've seen it plenty. This seems a bit above and beyond that scale. And even then, when it's something that can be resolved with showing them their own paperwork, it usually gets resolved far more quickly than this. This has been going on for a year now? Lawyers, a court, and said letters usually get a pretty little injunction for you while the agency gets their head out of their ass.
 
Really? You think a second class manufacture has out R&Ded, out performed, out optioned, out supported, out serviced Garmin?

Clearly you are a low time pilot. Probably just got your VFR ride and still think your call sign should be Maverick. Seriously, now your just blowing hot air cuz you have no foundation with Navworks and arguing just to argue.

I'm not a big fan of Garmin, like I said. But I'm confident Garmin would be handling it like a reputable company, not acting like an Osterich.

If and when your cornerstone argument folds for good, I'm sure you'll be wistling Dixie. :frown2:

I really wish you were my brother...now ask me why.
 
This is something I've never had to endure previously. Does anyone see any chance that the FAA will back down on this? I have no feel for the NPRM process and whether or not the comments have any effect on the outcome...


Doubt they will back down. It will take a judge to either force the FAA into having a crow sammich or Navworks to anti up at the high limits table. Either way, I foresee 700 boxes needling to be repaired or replaced.

Who pays for that is where the **** may hit the fan.
 
Doubt they will back down. It will take a judge to either force the FAA into having a crow sammich or Navworks to anti up at the high limits table. Either way, I foresee 700 boxes needling to be repaired or replaced.

Who pays for that is where the **** may hit the fan.

This is aviation. The only thing I'm really certain of is who pays! :)
 
Doubt they will back down. It will take a judge to either force the FAA into having a crow sammich or Navworks to anti up at the high limits table. Either way, I foresee 700 boxes needling to be repaired or replaced.

Who pays for that is where the **** may hit the fan.

"Fixing" boxes that aren't broken

Trying to drive a great little business, providing feature rich and low cost solutions to dumb government "mandates" out of business

You don't get anymore "government" than that.
 
Anyone see a potential conspiracy theory? Big companies have been known to use less than ethical tactics to put an upstart out of the running.
 
Anyone see a potential conspiracy theory? Big companies have been known to use less than ethical tactics to put an upstart out of the running.

Large companies have been known to use the US government to put competitors out of business. See United Fruit Company et al.
 
Anyone see a potential conspiracy theory? Big companies have been known to use less than ethical tactics to put an upstart out of the running.

I see a small company which is not used to working with the FAA and either screwed up by making products which don't meet the rules or screwed up in its communications with the FAA about its products.
 

Anyone see a potential conspiracy theory? Big companies have been known to use less than ethical tactics to put an upstart out of the running.


That has been on my mind too.
 
I see a small company which is not used to working with the FAA and either screwed up by making products which don't meet the rules or screwed up in its communications with the FAA about its products.


All jokes aside, read.


"
NavWorx Customers & Dealers
December 17, 2016

To our customers, we are updating you on the events that led to the FAA issuing the AD on our TSO certified ADS600-B (part numbers 200-0012, 200-0013 [12/13]), and non-TSO experimental product (part number 200-8013).

THE FAA SABOTAGED OUR BUSINESS
The FAA sabotaged our business – by changing their ground stations to not send all of the traffic flying in proximity to our customer’s aircraft. The FAA sends some traffic, but stopped sending all of the traffic to our customers as they fly; this results in our customers assuming they see all of the traffic, when in reality they see some but not most of the traffic, leading to a false sense of security, as the potential for a mid-air collision exists during the entire flight. This might seem outrageous to you that the FAA would blatantly put the lives of the flying public at risk, but the facts bear out this uncomfortable truth.

FAA POLICY CHANGE
Here’s the problem the FAA created – they implemented the TIS-B Service change that went into effect January of this year. The FAA claims (see TIS-B Service change) that it was intended to affect only uncertified ADS-B systems, but it affected our TSO certified 12/13 products, and to this day only affects our company’s products – no other manufacturer is affected.

WHAT IS TIS-B?
TIS-B traffic is FAA-speak for aircraft equipped with only Mode A/C transponders. Thousands of aircraft will remain transponder-only equipped after 2020.

Recall that the FAA told the GA aircraft owners in 2008 that they would not transmit traffic from their ground stations to ADS-B IN equipped aircraft unless the aircraft was equipped with ADS-B OUT. This is the reason over 700 customers, to date, have purchased our 12/13 product - to receive ALLof the traffic that the FAA advertised would be transmitted to ADS-B OUT equipped aircraft.

WHAT DID THE FAA DO?
Though the FAA says in their TIS-B Service change letter that they only intend on denying TIS-B traffic to uncertified ADS-B OUT equipped aircraft, the FAA changed their ground stations to affect only our company’s certified12/13 products. This deliberate and calculated change subjected over 700 of our customers to the continual risk of mid-air collisions. Further, we have documentation that shows the FAA implemented this change knowing it would affect our certified products, rendering them unsafe. Let me be specific on this point – the same personnel in the FAA that participated in our 12/13 product certification are the same FAA personnel that oversaw the TIS-B Service change.

DID NAVWORX MAKE THE FAA AWARE OF THE PROBLEM?
Yes, In September 2015, we submitted a minor software change, named “4.0.6” and detailed the safety implications that would occur when the change took effect starting January 4, 2016. We followed this up with a certified letter to the FAA again describing in detail how the FAA change would lead to the risk of our customers having mid-air collisions. We hired attorneys who on several occasions have discussed this problem with the FAA.

Our version 4.0.6 made our 12/13 products transmit SIL 3, which the FAA ground stations would recognize as sufficient to resume sending TIS-B traffic to our customers. This then removes the threat of a mid-air collision from our 12/13 customers whenever they fly.
 
...WAS NAVWORX AUTHORIZED TO MAKE THE 4.0.6 CHANGE?
Yes. Fortunately from product inception our internal GPS met SIL 3 performance. The FAA approved our internal GPS as SIL 3. During the TSO certification process, the FAA accepted our “compliance matrix” – which is the FAA’s primary means of compliance - showing our internal GPS integrity was 1x10-7, which translates to SIL of 3. (See compliance matrix here). However, FAA policy at that time was that ADS-B GPS must have its own separate TSO – our internal GPS was certified under TSO-C154c, the same as the UAT OUT/IN transceiver. It’s important to note that the FAA authorized us to certify our internal GPS in this manner, and that they know that our internal GPS is safe – applicants for TSO certification must present a project plan and the FAA reviews and approves this project plan before the FAA ever allows an applicant to proceed with TSO certification of any product. Although they approved our internal GPS to be SIL of 3 (integrity of 1x10-7), based on FAA policy at the time they made us transmit SIL 0, with the explanation that “uncertified GPS must transmit SIL 0”. This really is a misnomer, as our GPS is “certified” (under TSO-C154c), but the FAA refers to it as “uncertified”. The FAA AD states that “uncertified” GPS must transmit SIL of 0. This shows how the FAA is harming our customers by not sending TIS-B traffic and creating the risk of a mid-air collision.

THE FAA AMENDED THE LAW TO ALLOW FOR UNCERTIFIED ADS-B
In February 2015, the FAA amended the law to allow uncertified ADS-B equipment; as long as it met the performance of the TSO. Based on the fact that the FAA approved our compliance matrix showing our internal GPS met the performance of SIL 3, we submitted version 4.0.6 – and we created the experimental 200-8013 product.

IS NAVWORX THE ONLY MANUFACTURER OF UNCERTIFIED ADS-B?
No, there are other manufacturers producing “uncertified” ADS-B radios and ADS-B GPS – and these uncertified products transmit SIL of 3. Today, there are over 1000 experimental and light-sport aircraft flying with uncertified GPS that transmit SIL of 3, yet the FAA has not issued an AD for any experimental manufacturers of these uncertified GPS products.

WHY DID THE FAA PROPOSE THE AD FOR THE EXPERIMENTAL PRODUCT?
Our experimental product uses the same internal GPS that our 12/13 certified products use and with an approved integrity of SIL 3, meets the performance requirements.

In March 2015, well over a year and a half ago, we sent a letter to the FAA telling them that we would be selling the 200-8013 product, and requested that they approve of it before we sell it. About a week later they called to say it was approved for sale.

FAA policy for experimental ADS-B products is that they monitor their ADS-B compliance reporting system for problems. None of our five hundred 200-8013 customers have ever been contacted by the FAA about any issues with the product related to the GPS (or any other ADS-B issue other than configuration issues). Between the time of approval and the issued AD, the FAA never communicated to us any concerns about the performance of the 200-8013 product.

We can only conclude that the FAA is deliberately sabotaging our business.

THE FAA SAYS THAT THEY DENIED APPROVAL FOR 4.0.6. - IS THIS TRUE?
No! They sent us a letter, regarding the 4.0.6 change on February 29th, stating that our internal GPS wasn’t a “TSO GPS”; therefore we couldn’t transmit SIL of 3. This letter came from the certification office, which is the same office that wrote the AD, and is obviously unaware of the recent rule change that allows for uncertified equipment. Specifically this letter stated that we needed to use a TSO GPS and that we set the SIL back to 0. As part of their efforts to sabotage our business they released this letter to the public as part of the AD filing. By selectively releasing only this letter, they make it appear that we never had authorization to transmit SIL of 3. What they didn’t release to the public, and which we are now making available, is that a month later, they approved all of the changes in 4.0.6 (which included SIL 3), by approving three subsequent releases – versions 4.0.7, 4.0.8, and 4.0.9 (See 4.0.9 approval here). So they did approve 4.0.6 – three subsequent times.

WHY DID YOU DENY THE FAA INSPECTION OF YOUR FACILITY?
The FAA informed us that they wanted the production documents showing the contact information of our 700 12/13 customers. Using this information, they planned on contacting these customers and force them to revert to version 4.0.5. Version 4.0.5 transmits SIL 0 and subsequently puts our customers at risk of mid-air collisions. We complied with their requests for production documents, but redacted the customer contact info, as we would not, and will never be, party to purposely creating a risk to life. Please note that the FAA’s position today, with the publication of the Unapproved Parts Notice (UPN) states in order to continue using the 12/13 products, version 4.0.5 with SIL 0 must be used – and the FAA knows this will endanger our customers lives.

WHAT DOES THE FAA HAVE TO SAY ABOUT THE TIS-B SERVICE CHANGE?
After our attorneys pointed out to the FAA that their TIS-B policy change affected our 12/13 products and posed risk to life and property, the FAA couldn’t provide a coherent answer – instead they came up excuses. Here are two of our “favorites”:

  1. “NavWorx made a business decision to manufacture a product that did not comply with these requirements” (meaning our product transmitted SIL 0). This from the certification office that approved our 12/13 products to be certified, and demanded that we set the SIL to 0. In other words, they blame us for them certifying our products.
  2. Later they stated that the certification office (An office whose sole role is to certify avionics) didn’t know that the product was certified. By saying something so outrageous, they must think this covers them from their responsibility – recall the TIS-B Service change was to affect only uncertified products – so if the FAA can claim that they thought our product was uncertified, they think they’re off the hook.
IS A SOLUTION POSSIBLE?
Absolutely - We proposed to the FAA that we replace our internal GPS module with the GPS module from the vendor that has sold over 1000 modules to various experimental avionics manufacturers for sale to experimental and light-sport aircraft.

Our proposal had the FAA inspecting our facility and witnessing the testing of the modified 12/13 product on Friday October 24th. The proposal was agreed to by the FAA attorney representing the certification office. In bad faith, the FAA never showed up. Instead the next week they sent over a new proposal that wanted us to re-certify most of the 12/13 product, and told us they didn’t have a lot of time to work with us, so it would take them up to 6 months to approve the paperwork. For the experimental product, we contacted the certification office for approval to use this other vendor’s uncertified GPS module five weeks ago and they still haven’t replied to our email request.

It doesn’t appear to us that the FAA wants to rectify the problem they created.

IS LACK OF TIS-B TRAFFIC REALLY DANGEROUS?
Yes! The FAA says so in their rational for implementing the TIS-B service change. The change was to remove uncertified ADS-B OUT products – the ADS-B OUT of these uncertified systems would not be displayed when received by aircraft with certified traffic displays. Not displaying all traffic on an ADS-B display poses a risk of a mid-air collision:

"This introduces a potential safety hazard into the NAS."


SUMMARY
The FAA implemented the TIS-B Service change to fix a safety hazard related to uncertified equipment, but they knowingly created a much larger safety hazard by destroying the traffic functionality of our TSO certified products, putting over 700 of our customers at risk of a mid-air collision. The FAA continues to cover up this safety hazard, and won’t fix the problem nor will they allow us to resolve the problem.

The FAA has a mandate to create a safe National Airspace System (NAS), but instead have created an on-going risk of mid-air collisions for our 700 certified systems for almost a year now.

Bill Moffitt
President,
NavWorx Incorporated


If you have comments or questions on the TIS-B Service change, and how it puts your safety at risk when flying in the NAS -

Contact Fort Worth ACO, ASW-143: Michael.A.Heusser@FAA.gov, 10101 Hillwood Parkway, Fort Worth, Texas 76177, telephone (817) 222-5038, fax (817) 222-5245.

Contact: Administrator Huerta Via: Max.Slutsky, Special Advisor to the Administrator email: Max.Slutsky@FAA.gov tel: 202-267-9869

Contact your Congressman
http://www.house.gov/representatives/find/ "
 
Navworx did a horrible job in writing that. I've read it several times since they published it and every time, I wonder why they didn't find someone to summarize their argument with a set of bullet points for the certified version and another set of bullet points related to their experimental product.

Instead, they try to create fear of midair collisions and claim the FAA is sabotaging their business. They need to clearly identify the key issue for each product and clearly disprove the FAA's line of thinking. AOPA did a very good job of boiling the issues down in the recommendations in this letter:

https://download.aopa.org/advocacy/..._AD.pdf?_ga=1.185066729.1102710182.1455276858
 
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I noticed that as well when I was checking the Garmin site. I run FF on a wifi-only iPad. What is not clear is if the 345 will provide the GPS position if it is getting that from a WAAS GPS navigator, or if that capability requires one buy the internal WAAS GPS option for the 345?

I am waiting for my GNS 530 to return from Kansas after the WAAS upgrade. Still have not decided which is the best transponder to pair it with for ADS-B OUT to replace the KT-76A.
I just replaced my KT-76A with a 345 in our 182 and I really like it, my son usually flies it, but couple times I have flown it the traffic display is very nice. Haven't been in any weather in it, so I can't speak to that side of it. It's cool having the traffic on his iPad too! It's paired with a 530W.
 
Navworx did a horrible job in writing that. I've read it several times since they published it and every time, I wonder why they don't find someone to summarize their argument with a set of bullet points for the certified version and another set of bullet points related to their experimental product.

Instead, they try to create fear of midair collisions and claim the FAA is sabotaging their business. They need to clearly identify the key issue for each product and clearly disprove the FAA's line of thinking. AOPA did a very good job of boiling the issue down in the first paragraph of this letter:

https://download.aopa.org/advocacy/..._AD.pdf?_ga=1.185066729.1102710182.1455276858

Desperation is a stinky cologne.
 
Mr. Hoover did well shown their true colors and retired on his own terms.
 
Shall I find a shoe for y'all to chew on or will it be BYOS for this round?

I have an interest in this thread - I am one of the 800 and stand to loose $4100. I haven't been able to figure out why you are even in this thread, since it is obvious you aren't a stakeholder. Are you here just to revel in other people's misery? Please just go away. You are crapping all over this thread and for those of us who would like to simply share information, it's difficult getting past the smell.
 
Anyone see a potential conspiracy theory? Big companies have been known to use less than ethical tactics to put an upstart out of the running.

It has a name, it's called "Regulatory Capture", or using government regulators to further the interests of private commercial entities. The FAA has a long, well documented history with it. Southwest Airlines and others. Google regulatory capture and the FAA is used as the classic example.
 
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