My CFII Failed 4 Check Rides... Should I get a new one?

Discussion in 'Lessons Learned' started by Abe, Jul 29, 2017.

  1. Zeldman

    Zeldman Final Approach

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    I agree with ya, it would have been really nice if I could have gotten any flying job beside as a CFI before I had 300 hours.

    135 PIC minimum is usually 500 for VFR. My second career as a CFI was when I flew a King Air 90 as PIC and had a SIC that flew empty legs. He had I think 200 hours. But he could call out airspeeds really good, as well as operate the gear and flaps when needed...
     
  2. mtuomi

    mtuomi En-Route

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    It's in 135.243, there is no 135 SIC minimum. 135 VFR PIC is 500TT 100XC of which 25 at night, 135 IFR PIC is 1200TT/500XC/100 night/75 instrument. SIC can be a fresh commercial.

    It would be much better for everyone if the 250hr fresh commercials would do something else than instruct - a lot of them (not all, but a lot) are completely useless as CFIs.
     
  3. Zeldman

    Zeldman Final Approach

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    You are right for 135 SIC minimums. Usually insurance determines 135 SIC minimums. At least it did for the company I worked for, which set it at 250 hours.

    But I know a few guys got their first job as SIC in a DC-3. Their duty was to warm the seat.....
     
  4. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    That's right. I agree.
     
  5. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    I'm sure if I searched hard enough I could have found a gig like this but the CFI was easier to get for me.
     
  6. Mike Smith

    Mike Smith Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    If I were you I would switch, not for obvious reasons, but simply because if you are on here asking this you will never be able to learn because of not trusting. Personally, I'd like to hear the story from the other side before I made a judgement on the instructor. I find in most things that when you only get one side of a story it is somewhat skewed. But you are the customer, you obviously are not comfortable with the instruction, so switch.
     
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  7. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I was fortunate to learn under a Part 141 flight school that also was a FBO and Part 135 operator w/ C310s & C402s and a bunch of SEs. The Chief Pilot, and Chief Instructor, was my bud and CFI so I got to go along on charters and operate the radio lol, but flew the empty legs and began the long road to logging time until I got 500 for 135 VFR and finally the "magic" 1200 and then flew 135 as PIC along with instructing. Wasn't home much though as I also was a controller out at the base so I was busy. Stayed married though, amazingly, great wife to this day. That was in the 70s when GA was probably at it's peak. Hard to find operators like that now I would imagine.
     
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  8. rbridges

    rbridges En-Route

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    when I was in dental school, I knew faculty that couldn't cut a decent prep to save their lives but were very knowledgeable about the material. I guess you can know the stuff and still not be good at it. What others have said about trust is huge. You can't be mentally second guessing your CFI the whole time.
     
  9. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    My Father-in-Law was a mechanical engineer in the paper mill industry. He told me that it took about 5 years to get an college grad engineer up to speed. Ducking! His words not mine.
     
  10. Skyrys62

    Skyrys62 Cleared for Takeoff

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    Never have more true words been spoken. I have known auto mechanics, maintenance technicians, (insert most any field, even CPA's/accountants) that knew seemingly everything about their fields, but put them to work and it's a disaster. Just hire some of the 'pros' to do work for you, and it will become very familiar.

    If you want more proof, ask several women about their lover.
    (not mine of course)
     
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  11. Lindberg

    Lindberg Pattern Altitude

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    Don't. Nobody is perfect. Even your CFI.
     
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  12. WannFly

    WannFly Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    Well, there is a trust but verify that I follow, but as a student I don't know what i don't know. If he is asking me to recover in a certain way during flight training I should be able to trust him at that point. That critical moment is not a time to verify what he is saying

    Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
     
  13. OMGIFORGOTHOWTOLAND

    OMGIFORGOTHOWTOLAND Filing Flight Plan

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    1. You can't learn from someone you don't respect and trust. That is one of the main FOI's that all instructors learn. As a student you must be able to rely on your CFI.
    2. No CFI/II is perfect, I know plenty of CFI's that have to brush up on something before they teach it, myself included.
    3. Laziness and lack of caring are more dangerous than lack of knowledge. No one can know everything, but its not hard to look something up nowadays.
    4. There is no guarantee that you will get someone better, however flying is expensive and there is no use you being unhappy and paying for it or learning something wrong and paying for it down the line.
    5. My comm se was done with someone who couldn't even do the maneuvers. I wouldn't fly with that CFI again because they can't teach regardless of lack of experience some people just aren't meant to teach.
    6. 4 failures is up there, people are assuming this guy doesn't have any Multi Certs. Still 4/8 is still 50%. With that said I know some great instructors who have busted checkrides, I also know some horrible ones that have never busted. Just food for thought.
     
  14. dell30rb

    dell30rb Final Approach

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    Question for the OP:

    Did you believe your instructor was not doing a good job, then begin asking around or looking up the four failed checkrides?

    Or was it the other way around, you thought he was fine and then someone mentioned this to you, gossip, whatever.

    Four is a lot and I would also wonder how many of those were the CFI-initial. I know a truly good instructor who I have a lot of respect for, he failed the initial twice.
     
  15. paflyer

    paflyer Final Approach

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    Too many pilots (are forced to) become "instructors" to build time for the job they really want. Many only have a few hundred hours (at the "puppy mills") and have neither the desire, experience, nor inclination to "teach" effectively. Too bad it's not financially sustainable to be a full-time instructor in a lot of locations.
     
  16. jamie clabaugh

    jamie clabaugh Filing Flight Plan

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    Checkride pass fail rate should be in no way used as a metric for failure as a pilot/CFI! Some people just simply freeze up or otherwise let their nervousness get in the way of what would normally be a sucessful checkride and there is no way around that!
     
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  17. MassPilot

    MassPilot Cleared for Takeoff

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    Checkrides are stressful but there's a problem if a pilot freezes up or lets their nervousness interfere with their ability to fly proficiently. If that's how they react to stress then how are they going to react to the stress of an emergency or any other situation that puts them out of their comfort zone?
     
  18. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    Ummmm not so much. If they can't figure out how to manage the stress of a checking event there are issues.
     
  19. olasek

    olasek Pattern Altitude

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    Les Abend - a current American Airlines 777 captain (and former 767 check airmen) failed his first IFR checkride, he writes for FLYING magazine.
     
  20. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    Yeah. No issues with that situation. Failing the same checkride four times is fundamentally different.
     
  21. eman1200

    eman1200 Final Approach

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    [7500] hhmmm, @Tarheelpilot , I'd have to go back and check but did u see the BQ1 flyin we're trying to do on 9/23? [/7500]
     
  22. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    Yeah. Unfortunately I moved to western Kansas a few years ago. Haven't been in the Tar Heel State for over three years. I'll be there for thanksgiving hopefully
     
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  23. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Final Approach

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    But if he had passed, he could be a writer for AOPA Pilot or Plane & Pilot.

    ;)
     
  24. PeterNSteinmetz

    PeterNSteinmetz Pre-takeoff checklist

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    The safety aspect has been touched on in some other posts but IMO needs emphasis here.

    There are times in your training when you will mess up or bad circumstances mean something dangerous is happening or about to happen. And your CFI is going to need to fix it - fast - for everyone's safety.

    Do you really want to be having to second guess your instructor then?

    I would switch immediately.
     
  25. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Or be on CNN! Oh wait, he already is...
     
  26. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Final Approach

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    Yeah. Not sure if that's a positive. ;)
     
  27. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    He's better than that ****ing Quest dude and Martin whatever his last name, and of course the chick lawyer who always one of the first to comment. She is despised in the 121 world.
     
  28. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Final Approach

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    Oh I will definitely agree with you regarding Quest & Schiavo. Can't stand either one. Don't recall the Martin guy.
     
  29. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Martin (CNN reorter) the reporter, was in that Malaysian sim w/ the T shirt sim guy.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2017
  30. bluerooster

    bluerooster Cleared for Takeoff

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    How is the CFIs stick and rudder skills?
     
  31. CJ Rader

    CJ Rader Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Never be afraid to change your CFI. You should first and foremost feel safe in the air with your CFI and secondly you need to feel as if you can legitimately learn from them. If you can't answer yes to both of those questions, then find someone else. I'm late to this party, I know, but the first CFI I went up in the air with when I started taking lessons.. Oh lord. He was a nice enough guy, I guess, but was a terrible teacher and tried to cover for it by saying he was just a "hands off" kind of guy. I knew after 45 minutes in the air with the guy that I'd be switching instructors. Thankfully, I didn't have to worry about it. Before my second lesson, the company 'let him go.' My instructor is now the Asst. Chief Flight Instructor and I couldn't be happier.
     
  32. Rgbeard

    Rgbeard Pre-Flight

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    As this thread is nearing six months old, may I ask to the OP - did you switch or stay? Did you complete your training? How did it go?
     
  33. mryan75

    mryan75 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I haven’t read through the whole thread, but this sounds like one of those joints where they rush you through all your ratings in a hurry and then you teach at the school you just gradumadated from to build time towards your 1500. I have my doubts about that. I truly wonder how much knowledge retention there is in such a process, as evidenced by your “instructor”.
     
  34. Tantalum

    Tantalum Cleared for Takeoff

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    Agree, some people may be very skilled and smart, and be good teachers, just bad for whatever reason at taking and passing tests. The inverse is true too, I've met many crazy "smart" people (based on degrees hanging on their walls) that are just terrible teachers

    Having said that, pattern entries really don't have to be that hard and a CFI should be able to explain it or demonstrate it without too much grief. I find a lot of people get very hung up on 70*/110* TO/FROM etc., and way over complicate the thing, especially in their explanation. I found the Kings Course (oddly enough) to do a terrible job at explaining it, but my CFII did a fantastic job. What worked for me was to set the OBS to center the CDI then use my fingers to overlay the pattern to show teardrop/parallel/direct. If the top of the OBS says 210 (for example) the math is much easier in your head for the 70*/110* hold radial to figure out the entry*

    When I first started flying I was victim of this.. then later learned to look things up and verify them. Even with a 3,000 CFII I'll question something, not in a rude way, but in a "gee, maybe I didn't understand that right, FAR XX.XXX said this, am I interpreting it wrong?" and that usually makes for a good discussion and someone will learn from it



    Personally, to me the most important thing with CFI/CFII is that the personalities click.. that can make learning to fly a load of fun, or a very grueling and frustrating exercise. I know some people are more resource limited based on where they fly out of, but if you don't click with an instructor it is worth finding someone else. Especially since you're going to be spending thousands of dollars you want the experience to be as positive as reasonably possible

    *incidentally, not sure why so much of the instrument training is focused on holds. I feel like people spend an inordinate time on them, when in reality most GA people will extremely rarely be told to hold, and the pattern entries for holds are just suggestions anyway, not FAA mandated. I would gladly spend more time flying various approaches and studying approach plates. Someone I was talking to with over 3,000 hours said they've only ever been asked to hold twice (GA pilot though)
     
  35. Tantalum

    Tantalum Cleared for Takeoff

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    there's a balance and it depends on the person too. Instrument flying is the real deal and if you are not flying or actively being engaged a couple days a week I think you lose too much between lessons

    I do have a hard time with super low time instructors. I get that everyone needs to build time somehow, but I've learned the most from the over 50 age group crowd with thousands of hours of time. You can't replace experience
     
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  36. bflynn

    bflynn En-Route

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    The ability to teach and the ability to fly are two separate things. Is he a bad instructor? Is he unsafe? I have known instructors who were good pilots with perfect checkride records but they couldn't teach their way out of paper bag.

    Forget about his record. Does he teach you well? Will you have the chance to fly with others as well as him? If so, don't be worried.
     
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  37. SCFlyboy

    SCFlyboy Filing Flight Plan

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    One question for the OP......when you say that he failed 4 checkrides, do you mean that he's failed, say...his PPL, his IR, his COMM-SE, etc.....or did he fail his CFII 4 times?
     
  38. Paulie

    Paulie Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Shivo is a former faa administrator, a political appointment and as usual incompetent. My dad who was former CAB and FAA accident investigator and primary FAA maintenance inspector at a major airline, used to see a "expert" on TV that he had transferred out of his office for incompetence. Couldn't fire the guy, best he could do was to get him away from where he was causing problems. It ****ed dad off every time he spouted bs on TV.

     
  39. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Final Approach

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    Schiavo was not FAA Administrator. She was an IG for the DOT.
     
  40. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    As for failing rides, IMO there are two very different versions of that, one is a bit of a flag, the other doesn't mean much.

    Failing a normal pt61 ride, presuming it isn't multiple failures on the same ride, means NOTHING, you are being tested on something you didn't know how to do before, lots of factors, heck a bad CFI can set even the best applicant up for failure. Again this, to me, is about as telling as reading your tea leaves.

    Failing a recurrent ride, as in the yearly or bi yearly rides 135/121 folks take, that's not good, because now you're being tested on stuff you should already know and be doing everyday, now stuff happens, but busting these rides would be something I'd want more info on, same with failing the same pt61 ride multiple times.