Musing of a first time plane buyer

I'm with DJ. Look for a partnership in a more expensive plane. Don't be one of those pilots that buys a plane to buy a plane and then can't afford to fly it. :no:

I'll add another vote for a partnership or club. I know you said you'd tried looking, but maybe it's just going to take longer. It's really the best solution for what you're looking for. Even just one 50% partner would dramatically increase the quality of plane you can buy and the amount of money you'd be able to spend on fuel rather than tie-down, inspections, and insurance. I also don't see $300/mo working if you intend that to be "all-inclusive" with tie-down/t-hangar, insurance, inspections, maintenance, and then fuel on top of it.
 
All of them. What POS. Do not believe what you hear about the rust buckets.

Which 0-300 has cam problems that require a special oil additive?

Which 0-300 must have the prop removed to change the alternator belt?

Which overhaul manual says that all service bulletins must be complied with ?
 
Gotta love it when some guy touts a 20k airplane with an 1,800 hour engine that will cost another 20K.

Our average pilot only flies 50 hours per year. If you increase that to 100 that's still 18 years.
 
First time owner, here. 1972 Arrow II. Bought with a fellow with deep pockets but he bailed and turned it over to me. I do not have deep pockets and it is a strain. I retired to pursue aviation full-time (working toward CFII/A&P) but now think I will need to go back to my profession for part-time work, if I can find it.

Point being that aircraft ownership is pricey. For me, $300/month covers tie-down and insurance and not much more. You might want to add another $200/month for the annual as that expense is incurred whether you fly or not. Then be ready for the miscellaneous multiple AMU repair/maintenance issues (and if you do not know what an AMU is then now is the time to find out).

$25k is dead bottom to get a four-place airplane inspected, bought, ferried, taxes paid, and initial sort-out done. I think that would be really hard to do. $35k would be more realistic as a dead bottom. My Arrow was about $50k to get to that point.

Not trying to discourage you. I think a/c ownership is great! Just remember what Charles Dickens wrote:

"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery."
 
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Bogert cables or did you make those Tom?

The Battery cables are #4 aircraft quality wire from AS&S with copper ends swaged and soldered and sealed with heat shrink.

Yes I made them.
 
A bad premise that leads to even worse decision-making.

Our average pilot only flies 50 hours per year. If you increase that to 100 that's still 18 years.
 
Granted my plane is bigger and may well cost more to insure (though with my fairly high time in type maybe not much more) she will cost me $135/mo this year before I ever start her up. When you figure that I don't pay for storage and do all my own maintenance...
 
I'm with DJ. Look for a partnership in a more expensive plane. Don't be one of those pilots that buys a plane to buy a plane and then can't afford to fly it. :no:

True enough in a Cessna but in a Cherokee it is likely enough. In KS or TX I can own a Cherokee and fly it 6-8-10 hrs a month on $300 average monthly expenses.

I never paid more than $670 for an annual inspection and often paid much less. Including inspections and all other annual maintenance I paid about $10 per hour so if I was flying 100 hrs a year i might have $1000 total inspection and maintenance that year. however, when I had A&P friends who wanted to fly my ship I paid little or no maintenance other than cost of a hose, battery or tire. Even when paying for labor if I were flying 200 hrs that year the maintenance and inspection tended to be $2000 and that was the highest year maintenance I had. So it is almost exactly $10 per flight hour for inspection and maintenance on a lycoming 0320 in a Cherokee.

In that $10 per hour cost I rebuilt the 4 jugs over the years and Overhauled all accessories: Mags, bought a new carburetor, OH starter, new battery 2 times in 10 years, tach cable, rebuilt DG, new vacuum pump, radio work once, put new seat covers in, changed out a whealen light strob. So I put a complete top OH and rebuilt or purchased new, all accessories within that $10 per flight hour. The only work I ever did myself was one Oil change and I made a mess so I did not do it again.

On an early model Cessna, Not so in the Conti 300 or Lyc in Cessna. The Lycoming in the Cherokee is bullit proof but in the Cessna it is a hard case problem because of Cessnas implementation. In 10 years of reading 3 different pilots forums I read nothing but problems with early model cessnas, jugs, Over hauls and that is seldom the case with Cherokees.

There is always an A&P if not IA who will work for flight time in your plane and do trade outs. I have 3 CFI's who give me BFR's and and check outs on trade out. It costs you nothing to let someone fly your plane an hour.

I do not do my own maintenance but I do know how to spot a good mechanic, Savvy aviator seminars helps you to know when they are going crazy on you so you can pull them back down to earth. It helps to own a Cherokee to begin with.

The other things I like about the Cherokee is we have high winds in KS. Low wing aircraft are easier to take off and land in high crosswind situations as you have more control just before you sit it on the runway. They are more stable in that situation. Beside they look cooler.

True story: I was the home computer repair guy for Jack Pelton and one time Rosy his wife asked me why I bought a Cherokee living in Cessna country and I told her my son and I thought they looked cooler, it was the first deal I found that I could live with. She said it a little snarky so I threw in "when my grandmother starts flying with me I would consider the Cessna." Of course that was the last time i was at Jack Peltons house at crestview.

I know plenty of people who work for Cessna and they are not bad aircraft. You can be happy with either Piper or Cessna or Grumman possibly even beach but the pre mid 60's early Cessnas are not as good of airplanes as Cherokees IMO.
 
you bid a plane like that as worse than at TBO.

In this market I wouldn't pay much more than $12-14k for a 2000 hr tbo aircraft. You can IRAN all hoses, harness, accessories on a cherokee for $1000. You can put 4 new lycoming jugs on $4000 plus $800 or so labor. Then you have a new TOP on a cherokee which will not cost you much maintenance over the next four or five years. So you are still in for about $20k for a simple family flyer with VFR possibly even modest IFR flyer.

If you are going to buy an airplane get a good source of aircraft valuation. It is no where near what these morans are asking on Controller and TradeAPlane. When i sold my Cherokee, I sold it within 10 days to the 4th guy who looked at it because I priced it what it was worth not some hope of what I might get for it if some idiot came along with an open wallet.

The biggest problem with making it to TBO is sitting. When many of these engines are at 500 hours till TBO but well into 25 years since OH there may be a lot of gaskets, hoses, baffling, corrosion etc that may need help on top of any cylinder issues.


This O-320 and the airframe (and oil cooler) has 1500 TT since new. Hoses are shot, 90% firewall forward wiring shot, ignition harness shot, baffling falling off, valve cover gaskets shot, drain back tube hoses shot,

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=59403

The gaskets and baffling arent that expensive but they sure can be time consuming to replace.
 
Exactly.

I will add that grass looks greener 1300 miles away. All the a/c I looked at seemed better in NC and SC and I am here in the midwest. Just resolve yourself to buy locally within a weekends drive then you can make weekend vacation shopping trips and make fun out of it.

It took me 6 months to find my plane but most o that time was my training and learning not availability of a/c.

Two thoughts from a not-so-experienced aircraft buyer/seller.

Be careful about long distance purchases. You can get yourself trapped into a deal that may not be optimal just because it cost some money to get a look and/or just not having enough time to check it all out or find a good mechanic to do the pre-buy. Nothing too difficult here, just a caution for the first timer.

Try your best to take your time. Fortunately my wife knew me well enough to nix my first few deals. It gave me enough time to figure out exactly what I wanted. In the end, for my Maule purchase, I knew enough about the marketplace and the planes that when a great plane appeared, I was able to jump on it and make the right deal. Sounds like you may already have this part under control.

Good luck. Hope to see you flying around NC sometime.
 
Any discussions of time-frames exceeding a few years are smoke.

Then why do we worry about it ? TBO is just a number it really means nothing in part 91.
 
At $300/month, you're probably off by a factor of 4 when you figure in hangar, insurance, fuel, maintenance, etc...

You pay $1200 per month to keep your airplane? not including an airplane payment?

No wonder so many planes sit in the hangar gathering dust.
 
FWIW, 7 new PTFE firesleeved hoses for a whimpy 4 banger Lycoming with engine driven fuel pump, electric standby fuel pump, it ran over $500 just for the hoses. An O-300 powered 172 cuts a lot of BS cost out that Lycomings have. About the only weak (maybe) part of the O-300 I can think of is the starter adapter and 4 extra spark plugs.

You obviously do not know how to spend money on aviation maintenance if this is your experience.

A year and a half ago, I bought all new hoses for my 250 Comanche with Turbos for that, it was something like 14 hoses with fire sleeves. So you are doing something wrong. Your mechanic must love you. You must let him buy the parts and mark them up 40%.

From this statement and others you have made about Cherokee costs, I have to say you really do not know what you are talking about.
 
You obviously do not know how to spend money on aviation maintenance if this is your experience.

A year and a half ago, I bought all new hoses for my 250 Comanche with Turbos for that, it was something like 14 hoses with fire sleeves. So you are doing something wrong. Your mechanic must love you. You must let him buy the parts and mark them up 40%.

From this statement and others you have made about Cherokee costs, I have to say you really do not know what you are talking about.

He is the mechanic
 
I flew a Cherokee for 4 years. It always cost $12,000/yr to operate it. (100-120 hours) I'm no math expert, but $12,000/12 is pretty close to $1,000. Which is a lot more that $300.

Monthly Fixed costs:
Hangar: $90 (which was dirt cheap, I'm now at $185)
Insurance: $60 (I know you don't believe in it, but others do)
Annual Inspection: $50.

Hell, I'm at $200 right there, and haven't even started the engine.


$1000 per month -$200 +$800 are you trying to figure an airplane payment in there? He is paying cash for his plane. OK if he does want insurance then that costs him an hour a month of fuel. Still can fly about 6 hrs a month, 9 with mogas.
 
From this statement and others you have made about Cherokee costs, I have to say you really do not know what you are talking about.

What money do you spend on your airplane that you don't consider airplane costs? I had my Cherokee 4 years, never had an annual run over $1200, and it cost $12,000/year when you figure in the following:

Hangar
Fuel
Oil
Insurance
Maintenance
Charts and other subscriptions

And that's when fuel was under $3.00/gallon
 
My hangar rent is $400. The landlord doesn't care what's in it.

What money do you spend on your airplane that you don't consider airplane costs? I had my Cherokee 4 years, never had an annual run over $1200, and it cost $12,000/year when you figure in the following:

Hangar
Fuel
Oil
Insurance
Maintenance

And that's when fuel was under $3.00/gallon
 
$1000 per month -$200 +$800 are you trying to figure an airplane payment in there? He is paying cash for his plane. OK if he does want insurance then that costs him an hour a month of fuel. Still can fly about 6 hrs a month, 9 with mogas.

No airplane payment.

Maybe you don't figure airplane costs the way the rest of us do.
 
What money do you spend on your airplane that you don't consider airplane costs? I had my Cherokee 4 years, never had an annual run over $1200, and it cost $12,000/year when you figure in the following:

Hangar
Fuel
Oil
Insurance
Maintenance

And that's when fuel was under $3.00/gallon


That is my AC budget as well Ed. 1K per month
 
I flew a Cherokee for 4 years. It always cost $12,000/yr to operate it. (100-120 hours) I'm no math expert, but $12,000/12 is pretty close to $1,000. Which is a lot more that $300.

Monthly Fixed costs:
Hangar: $90 (which was dirt cheap, I'm now at $185)
Insurance: $60 (I know you don't believe in it, but others do)
Annual Inspection: $50.

Hell, I'm at $200 right there, and haven't even started the engine.


$1000 per month -$200 =$800. Are you trying to figure an airplane payment in there? He is paying cash for his plane. OK if he does want insurance then that costs him an hour a month of fuel no big deal. Still can fly about 6 hrs a month, 9 with mogas. I don't think I ever spent $1000 in one month on my Cherokee unless it was a month that I put a rebuilt cylinder on the Cherokee and that wasn't $1000.
 
Which 0-300 has cam problems that require a special oil additive?

Which 0-300 must have the prop removed to change the alternator belt?

Which overhaul manual says that all service bulletins must be complied with ?

Tom you should experience lycomings more.

I bought a 8000 hr flight line queen with 2000 hour run out engine expecting to spend money on maintenance and rebuild the engine.

However, In 10 years of owning the Cherokee I never once put camguard nor lyconings additive in my 320. (Actually it is made for the 180 hp 0360 engine) the Cherokee 140 engine which is 150hp most closely related to the 145hp of the Cessna 300 engine which we are comparing.

I flew the plane from 2000 hrs SMOH to 3500 hrs with only rebuilding 3 of the four jugs and all accessories and still didn't spend much.

In 10 years I put 1 alternator belt on my Cherokee, actually I put two, one on the alternator and 1 tied back for future use which I never needed. So that added about 1 hr labor at $55. Hard to compare that cost to all those failing 300 conti's with bad jugs and worse cases.

I owned the Cherokee about 10 years and had a bit less than $10k maintenance and annual inspections over that same time. Show me a Cessna w/300 conti that does that?
 
Would you be willing to bet you could do it again with another one?

Tom you should experience lycomings more.

I bought a 8000 hr flight line queen with 2000 hour run out engine expecting to spend money on maintenance and rebuild the engine.

However, In 10 years of owning the Cherokee I never once put camguard nor lyconings additive in my 320. (Actually it is made for the 180 hp 0360 engine) the Cherokee 140 engine which is 150hp most closely related to the 145hp of the Cessna 300 engine which we are comparing.

I flew the plane from 2000 hrs SMOH to 3500 hrs with only rebuilding 3 of the four jugs and all accessories and still didn't spend much.

In 10 years I put 1 alternator belt on my Cherokee, actually I put two, one on the alternator and 1 tied back for future use which I never needed. So that added about 1 hr labor at $55. Hard to compare that cost to all those failing 300 conti's with bad jugs and worse cases.

I owned the Cherokee about 10 years and had a bit less than $10k maintenance and annual inspections over that same time. Show me a Cessna w/300 conti that does that?
 
Tom you should experience lycomings more.

I bought a 8000 hr flight line queen with 2000 hour run out engine expecting to spend money on maintenance and rebuild the engine.

However, In 10 years of owning the Cherokee I never once put camguard nor lyconings additive in my 320. (Actually it is made for the 180 hp 0360 engine) the Cherokee 140 engine which is 150hp most closely related to the 145hp of the Cessna 300 engine which we are comparing.

I flew the plane from 2000 hrs SMOH to 3500 hrs with only rebuilding 3 of the four jugs and all accessories and still didn't spend much.

In 10 years I put 1 alternator belt on my Cherokee, actually I put two, one on the alternator and 1 tied back for future use which I never needed. So that added about 1 hr labor at $55. Hard to compare that cost to all those failing 300 conti's with bad jugs and worse cases.

I owned the Cherokee about 10 years and had a bit less than $10k maintenance and annual inspections over that same time. Show me a Cessna w/300 conti that does that?


See post #3 #9, your position is that a Cherokee with all its extra parts WILL be cheaper than a dirt simple O-300 powered 172 in decent shape?
 
For having an MBA you either are good at cooking books, or just don't know what you are talking about.

No Mogas STC on my Cherokee (now my Comanche) and even if there was, no ethanol free mogas in the area. So I can forget about $3.00 fuel around here. It's about $5.50 for avgas. I had a Cherokee 180, and if I still had that now, I am looking at 10gph fuel burn. I ran it for 4 years, and I was always 10gph startup to shut down. I'll pretend I still have my Cherokee 180 for illustration purposes.

Hangar: $185
Annual: $50 ($600/year)
Insurance: $50 ($600/year)
Fuel: $550 (10hrs per month.)
Oil/Filters: $12.00 (2 cases of oil at $50 and 2 filters)
Charts: $10 (I need 4 to fly in MI, or I need a Foreflight subscription)
Now, I was IFR with a 430, so lets add in another $40 a month for my Jepp database.

That's $897 per month and I haven't had to replace anything yet.
 
See post #3 #9, your position is that a Cherokee with all its extra parts WILL be cheaper than a dirt simple O-300 powered 172 in decent shape?

Fewer than 1200 parts on a Cherokee. It really is a stone simple airplane, and they tend to run cheaper and a bit faster than their Skyhawk brethren.
 
In 1980-what?

Today I pay $120 a month hangar rent with electricity.
My last annual on my Comanche was $200 for the AI; plus $100 parts.

So that might cost me $1500 per year plus gas and I do have the plane in a condition I am very happy with.

If I had $25k, I would buy a 6-9k TTAF; 2000 SMOH IFR Cherokee for about $14-15k. I would IRAn the accessories and fly it 50 hrs and then reinspect the jugs; IRAN any that fall short of 70 PSI and then I would go fly the hell out of that plane, keeping most of my $10k savings in the bank for a rainy day.

I would either keep the plane on tie down in texas for free or $25 a month and buy insurance or I would keep it in a hangar for $120 a month and not buy insurance. I might get non moving insurance for a pittance of the price.

Then I would buy mogas for $3 per gallon and enjoy the heck out of my plane. I might also find and allow a few non equity partners to fly the plane in which case I would have them pay 100% of the insurance, annual inspections, maintenance and hangar rent in exchange for ownership like use of my Cherokee. Then I could use my whole $300 per month on mogas and fly about 11 hrs a month. I know this is possible because I did it for the last 2 years I owned the Cherokee after I bought the Comanche. I also did it 2 years of owning the Comanche but I already knew the guys thoroughly before allowing them to fly the Comanche which is another level of risk all together.

If there are not clubs and no partnerships in his airport then it won't be hard to find a couple of guys or even 1 guy to pay or help pay overhead on a Cherokee. I know costs are much different in NYC, Michigan and other places but in those places the amount of money the non equity partner has to chip in is much higher as well.

You only need open thinking and a bit of flexibility to make it happen. It is not like a $20k Cherokee is the pride of your life that you cannot allow someone else to fly. It is a peice of equipment that you can rent out, lend out, trade out and use. It actually is healthier to let it fly. When I flew 200 hrs a year I did not need help keeping it exercised but when my flying decreased with the coming of my grand daughter, now I like some help flying my planes.
 
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Today I pay $120 a month hangar rent with electricity.
My last annual on my Comanche was $200 for the AI; plus $100 parts.

Does that include, or not include, the lead for the pencil?
 
Yes, as I said, none nearby.

Oh, wait there's supposedly one. But then I'd need to buy a trailer to haul the stuff to the airport.

You'd save about $2500/yr. You can probably have a nice fuel trailer for under 1k.
 
You'd save about $2500/yr. You can probably have a nice fuel trailer for under 1k.

The O-540/Comanche isn't STC'd for Mogas.

Also, just looked the closest place:

Updated by Jonathan Lathbury, May 16, 2013 12:32 CDT
The only E0 product they carry is 110 octane racing fuel. It is $7.39 per gallon. If you have a classic car or lawn garden equipment then this may be what you need. You can also blend this with a lower octane E10 fuel to lessen the Ethanol percentage.
 
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