Musing of a first time plane buyer

Back on topic, I have some advice for the OP who is pondering airplane ownership. Take it FWIW, which is exactly what you've paid for it. :D

I've owned four airplanes over the last 15 years. IMHO, my first plane -- that cheap "starter plane" that you're looking for right now -- was an enormous waste of time and money. ALL of which could have been saved, in the long run, if I had only looked farther down the road than 5 years.

My first was a Piper Cherokee Warrior, which is basically in the class you're discussing now. Small useful load (really a 2+2, not a true 4-seater), small engine, small acquisition price.

In the end, we only owned it for four years, because I was stupid and did not adequately take into account our future needs, as caused by growing kids (useful load) and farther distances (something faster than 110 knots) to travel for business.

IMHO the "starter airplane" is a mirage, and a costly one at that. Instead, sit down and examine you're time horizon realistically, as follows:

1. What's your age? If you're 30, look at least 15 years out. That's the length loan you'll be taking. Adjust with age.

2. Got kids? How old are your kids? Project them out ten years. Will your little boy weigh 220 pounds in 2023? Maybe that Skyhawk isn't such a great idea.

3. How far away is your family? Where do you WANT to fly? Planning to move farther away? We learned that flying long distances with little kids in a plane as slow as a Warrior was not fun.

Bottom line: Learn from my mistakes. I loved that Warrior to death, but in the end I should have skipped it altogether and bought the plane I've owned for the last 11 years, the bigger, faster Piper Pathfinder. I would have been money, and mostly time, ahead.

If you think you can't afford such a capable plane, get a partner. Owning the right plane with a partner is better than owning the wrong plane by yourself.

And remember -- a bigger engine will cost more up front, but does not necessarily mean higher operational costs. If you're in no hurry you can always pull back the throttle and putter around at Skyhawk fuel burns and speeds, if you want -- but when you need the climb and speed, it's there at your command.

My advice: Buy the plane you think you will need in 5, 10, maybe 15 years. Skip the plane that only makes sense today.
 
Yep, and while you're at it buy your last house first, get your last job first and buy your Benz now. And if you're in the hotel biz, remodel all the rooms and add the second story the day you take title to the property.

For further help with hoot-at-the-moon financial planning, Amazon is running a special on the Alfred E. Neuman Economics textbook.

QUOTE=Jay Honeck;1199498]Back on topic, I have some advice for the OP who is pondering airplane ownership. Take it FWIW, which is exactly what you've paid for it. :D

I've owned four airplanes over the last 15 years. IMHO, my first plane -- that cheap "starter plane" that you're looking for right now -- was an enormous waste of time and money. ALL of which could have been saved, in the long run, if I had only looked farther down the road than 5 years.

My first was a Piper Cherokee Warrior, which is basically in the class you're discussing now. Small useful load (really a 2+2, not a true 4-seater), small engine, small acquisition price.

In the end, we only owned it for four years, because I was stupid and did not adequately take into account our future needs, as caused by growing kids (useful load) and farther distances (something faster than 110 knots) to travel for business.

IMHO the "starter airplane" is a mirage, and a costly one at that. Instead, sit down and examine you're time horizon realistically, as follows:

1. What's your age? If you're 30, look at least 15 years out. That's the length loan you'll be taking. Adjust with age.

2. Got kids? How old are your kids? Project them out ten years. Will your little boy weigh 220 pounds in 2023? Maybe that Skyhawk isn't such a great idea.

3. How far away is your family? Where do you WANT to fly? Planning to move farther away? We learned that flying long distances with little kids in a plane as slow as a Warrior was not fun.

Bottom line: Learn from my mistakes. I loved that Warrior to death, but in the end I should have skipped it altogether and bought the plane I've owned for the last 11 years, the bigger, faster Piper Pathfinder. I would have been money, and mostly time, ahead.

If you think you can't afford such a capable plane, get a partner. Owning the right plane with a partner is better than owning the wrong plane by yourself.

And remember -- a bigger engine will cost more up front, but does not necessarily mean higher operational costs. If you're in no hurry you can always pull back the throttle and putter around at Skyhawk fuel burns and speeds, if you want -- but when you need the climb and speed, it's there at your command.

My advice: Buy the plane you think you will need in 5, 10, maybe 15 years. Skip the plane that only makes sense today.[/QUOTE]
 
wabower said:
Yep, and while you're at it buy your last house first, get your last job first and buy your Benz now. And if you're in the hotel biz, remodel all the rooms and add the second story the day you take title to the property.

For further help with hoot-at-the-moon financial planning, Amazon is running a special on the Alfred E. Neuman Economics textbook.

QUOTE=Jay Honeck;1199498]Back on topic, I have some advice for the OP who is pondering airplane ownership. Take it FWIW, which is exactly what you've paid for it. :D

I've owned four airplanes over the last 15 years. IMHO, my first plane -- that cheap "starter plane" that you're looking for right now -- was an enormous waste of time and money. ALL of which could have been saved, in the long run, if I had only looked farther down the road than 5 years.

My first was a Piper Cherokee Warrior, which is basically in the class you're discussing now. Small useful load (really a 2+2, not a true 4-seater), small engine, small acquisition price.

In the end, we only owned it for four years, because I was stupid and did not adequately take into account our future needs, as caused by growing kids (useful load) and farther distances (something faster than 110 knots) to travel for business.

IMHO the "starter airplane" is a mirage, and a costly one at that. Instead, sit down and examine you're time horizon realistically, as follows:

1. What's your age? If you're 30, look at least 15 years out. That's the length loan you'll be taking. Adjust with age.

2. Got kids? How old are your kids? Project them out ten years. Will your little boy weigh 220 pounds in 2023? Maybe that Skyhawk isn't such a great idea.

3. How far away is your family? Where do you WANT to fly? Planning to move farther away? We learned that flying long distances with little kids in a plane as slow as a Warrior was not fun.

Bottom line: Learn from my mistakes. I loved that Warrior to death, but in the end I should have skipped it altogether and bought the plane I've owned for the last 11 years, the bigger, faster Piper Pathfinder. I would have been money, and mostly time, ahead.

If you think you can't afford such a capable plane, get a partner. Owning the right plane with a partner is better than owning the wrong plane by yourself.

And remember -- a bigger engine will cost more up front, but does not necessarily mean higher operational costs. If you're in no hurry you can always pull back the throttle and putter around at Skyhawk fuel burns and speeds, if you want -- but when you need the climb and speed, it's there at your command.

My advice: Buy the plane you think you will need in 5, 10, maybe 15 years. Skip the plane that only makes sense today.
Click to expand...
[/QUOTE]

I respectfully disagree....

My first plane was N4341X, a Warrior.... Bought it for 11,000,, sold it 8 years later for twice that... Best investment I ever made....... Except the lot I bought in Jackson Hole in 1989 for 42,000 and its now worth 2 mil +++.....

I LOVE aviation....:yes:
 
N801BH said:
I respectfully disagree....

My first plane was N4341X, a Warrior.... Bought it for 11,000,, sold it 8 years later for twice that... Best investment I ever made....... Except the lot I bought in Jackson Hole in 1989 for 42,000 and its now worth 2 mil +++.....

I LOVE aviation....:yes:
Click to expand...

I've made money on airplanes, too. However...ain't NOBODY buying planes, holding, and selling for a profit anymore, Ben. Telling a newbie that this is possible just ain't fair to him. What we saw back in the market during the early 2000s won't be happening again anytime soon.
 
Yep, and while you're at it buy your last house first, get your last job first and buy your Benz now. And if you're in the hotel biz, remodel all the rooms and add the second story the day you take title to the property.

For further help with hoot-at-the-moon financial planning, Amazon is running a special on the Alfred E. Neuman Economics textbook.
Click to expand...

Wow, you've surpassed even your usual low standards for nastiness! A remarkable achievement. :rolleyes:

Talk about missing the point. My suggestions were entirely revenue-neutral, as compared to buying a "starter plane", will save him money in the long run, and would save the OP a step that no one needs to take.
 
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Jay Honeck said:
I've made money on airplanes, too. However...ain't NOBODY buying planes, holding, and selling for a profit anymore, Ben. Telling a newbie that this is possible just ain't fair to him. What we saw back in the market during the early 2000s won't be happening again anytime soon.
Click to expand...

Agreed................ But..... A( first love) can never be forgotten...:no:
 
The OP is back

Wow! what a response! I Have read each posting and the PMs. Let me fill in any data points that I missed in my original post. I live in ENC in the nice city of New Bern. I am 51 with wife , daughter and black lab.
I definitely agree that a partnership is the way to go, but I do not want to give up on the dream if I can't find one. I have a F150 so hauling gas is no biggee and there are 2 sources of E0 within 3 miles of the airport. I am handy with a/c (I work for the USDON fixing Marine helicopters), so an owner assisted annual is a good possibility.

My takeway from all of this is:
$300/month is not enough, but might not be too far off.
Any of the aircraft mentioned would work but a 63-67 C172 may represent the best choice in terms of simplicity/value, with a Cherokee a close second.

Thanks for all of the good ideas!
 
Touchy little feller, ain't he?

Revenue neutral, eh? Guy shows up with $25k and you try to trade him up by 2X based on some loose-canon logic that's anything but revenue neutral, and you somehow think is a prudent course of action? Especially when you state that your primary benefit has been time savings? Are hotel guys worth a lot more than they used to be? GMAB



Jay Honeck said:
Wow, you've surpassed even your usual low standards for nastiness! A remarkable achievement. :rolleyes:

Talk about missing the point. My suggestions were entirely revenue-neutral, as compared to buying a "starter plane", will save him money in the long run, and would save the OP a step that no one needs to take.
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
Touchy little feller, ain't he?

Revenue neutral, eh? Guy shows up with $25k and you try to trade him up by 2X based on some loose-canon logic that's anything but revenue neutral, and you somehow think is a prudent course of action? Especially when you state that your primary benefit has been time savings? Are hotel guys worth a lot more than they used to be? GMAB
Click to expand...

The partner concept still eludes you, I see. Let me try again: Two people with $25K each equals more good.
 
Morgan3820 said:
The OP is back

Wow! what a response! I Have read each posting and the PMs. Let me fill in any data points that I missed in my original post. I live in ENC in the nice city of New Bern. I am 51 with wife , daughter and black lab.
I definitely agree that a partnership is the way to go, but I do not want to give up on the dream if I can't find one. I have a F150 so hauling gas is no biggee and there are 2 sources of E0 within 3 miles of the airport. I am handy with a/c (I work for the USDON fixing Marine helicopters), so an owner assisted annual is a good possibility.

My takeway from all of this is:
$300/month is not enough, but might not be too far off.
Any of the aircraft mentioned would work but a 63-67 C172 may represent the best choice in terms of simplicity/value, with a Cherokee a close second.

Thanks for all of the good ideas!
Click to expand...
Or, if you want to have enough of your 25k left over for peace of mind and hang close to your 300/ month goal, try out a tri pacer
 
Hi JGarman. The $300/mo figure is too low. I would figure about $500 minimum, but I think that would work. I owned a 1966 C-172 for 4 years. Great airplane. I wish I had it back. Not the fastest, but it got us there, and it was inexpensive enough I could go out anytime I wanted to stay proficient.
 
For chits sake, for a personal plane, just buy the damn thing and put fuel in, pay for things when they come up.

This ain't rocket science.
 
And other smart guys have debated being penny wise and pound foolish. I've always thought a guy's billing rate should exceed the cost of the plane stuff by a substantial margin and have made a point to keep it that way.

Tony_Scarpelli said:
Your question assumes one simply need work harder to make more money. That may or may not be the case. A penny saved is a penny earned. B. Franklyn.
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Skylane81E said:
Granted my plane is bigger and may well cost more to insure (though with my fairly high time in type maybe not much more) she will cost me $135/mo this year before I ever start her up. When you figure that I don't pay for storage and do all my own maintenance...
Click to expand...

Add storage (hangar) and paid MX and you're headed for his monthly minimum without having turned a prop yet.
 
denverpilot said:
Add storage (hangar) and paid MX and you're headed for his monthly minimum without having turned a prop yet.
Click to expand...

A hangar around here would bust the budget on its lonesome. :mad2:

On that budget the plane will be outside, before we lost our airport we were charging $60/mo for a tiedown and had all of them full
 
Another perspective on the buy the last plane first scenario.

I've often theorized that I should have bought a 67, 180 Arrow or 180 Comanche as my first plane and took the little extra hit in additional PPL training (I bought my plane to get my PPL in).

However, I gained several things owning the Cherokee first before upgrading to a complex, high performance aircraft.

I got 500 flight hours at an average cost below $30-33 per hour ($1.60 mogas and $10 per hour of maintenance) total cost=$15,000. Which is what most people spend renting, to get a PPL/IR/Commercial 250 hrs.

I got 4 years of aircraft ownership, cost control, maintenance procurement experience which is absolutely critcal owing big bore aircraft.

I internalized a fair amount of aviation muscle memory flying, flight experience which insurance companies seem to think is important and long cross country experience (flew to both coasts a few time) which might well have made my transition to a Turbo Comanche safe as apposed to starting with a Complex and/or high performance.

So unless you have 250-500 hrs when buying your first plane, I'm not sure you should consider buying much more than a SEL non complex a/c.

From a financial perspective the difference in cost of owing these two aircraft:

Cherokee
Fuel 8 gph at todays mogas price $3.299
$4 per hour towards oil change/oil analysis/oil filter (100 hrs)
$10 per hour inspection and maintenance costs
Come to about $40 per hour

Comanche
Fuel 14 gph at todays price $6
$8 per hour towards oil change/oil analysis/oil filter (50 hrs)
$40 per hour inspection and maintenance costs
Come to about $132 per hour

So a 100 hrs a year is going to cost $4000 in the Cherokee and $13200 in the Comanche. The more complex plane has more opportunities for new Ad's as yet unknown. And if not staying proficient the faster plane is less forgiving allowing you less time to make decisions in flight for things that do not seem to workout.

So the more plane is not just a tiny bit more it is a factor of 3x and I do a reasonably good job of keeping costs down as anyone who knows me, already knows.

My first plane cost me $20k and I sold it for $15k so it cost me $5k to own it for about 8 or 9 years. It is easy to see that I saved much more than the $5k depreciation on the airplane cost.

I think I got more out of owning a Cherokee and selling it and paying for a faster long cross country plane than it would have cost me to buy the fast heavy hauler first.

While I really enjoy the Comanche and remember special trips to Grand Cayman Islands, Grand Canyon, both coasts, family trips and all that, the fun for $ factor is higher in the Cherokee than it is in the Comanche.

If you do not need 200 mph and have any concern about costs, then do not get a faster plane first.

So buying a faster plane as your first plane has both a financial risk and a health risk IMO (to most of us who do not have PPL/IR/Comm/CFI/ATP ratings).

While I can go 200 mph reasonably easy, 80% of the time I do not go that fast. If you really think you need more than a 120 mph Cherokee then consider the first step of something like a 235 Cherokee/182 or Arrow/177RG class aircraft.

Every incremental bit of speed beyond the first 120 mph is of greatly diminishing value and that assumes you are looking specifically at it as a traveling machine. When you consider it is more for pleasure hops then it is every more indefensible to buy a fast plane.

I would love to have a twin but I really have no need; I would love to have a turbo prop but I have not enough income nor need.
 
Another perspective on the buy the last plane first scenario.

I've often theorized that I should have bought a 67, 180 Arrow or 180 Comanche as my first plane and took the little extra hit in additional PPL training (I bought my plane to get my PPL in).

However, I gained several things owning the Cherokee first before upgrading to a complex, high performance aircraft.

I got 500 flight hours at an average cost below $30-33 per hour ($1.60 mogas and $10 per hour of maintenance) total cost=$15,000. Which is what most people spend renting, to get a PPL/IR/Commercial 250 hrs.

I got 4 years of aircraft ownership, cost control, maintenance procurement experience which is absolutely critcal owing big bore aircraft.

I internalized a fair amount of aviation muscle memory flying, flight experience which insurance companies seem to think is important and long cross country experience (flew to both coasts a few time) which might well have made my transition to a Turbo Comanche safe as apposed to starting with a Complex and/or high performance.

So unless you have 250-500 hrs when buying your first plane, I'm not sure you should consider buying much more than a SEL non complex a/c.

From a financial perspective the difference in cost of owing these two aircraft:

Cherokee
Fuel 8 gph at todays mogas price $3.299
$4 per hour towards oil change/oil analysis/oil filter (100 hrs)
$10 per hour inspection and maintenance costs
Come to about $40 per hour

Comanche
Fuel 14 gph at todays price $6
$8 per hour towards oil change/oil analysis/oil filter (50 hrs)
$40 per hour inspection and maintenance costs
Come to about $132 per hour

So a 100 hrs a year is going to cost $4000 in the Cherokee and $13200 in the Comanche. The more complex plane has more opportunities for new Ad's as yet unknown. And if not staying proficient the faster plane is less forgiving allowing you less time to make decisions in flight for things that do not seem to workout.

So the more plane is not just a tiny bit more it is a factor of 3x and I do a reasonably good job of keeping costs down as anyone who knows me, already knows.

My first plane cost me $20k and I sold it for $15k so it cost me $5k to own it for about 8 or 9 years. It is easy to see that I saved much more than the $5k depreciation on the airplane cost.

I think I got more out of owning a Cherokee and selling it and paying for a faster long cross country plane than it would have cost me to buy the fast heavy hauler first.

While I really enjoy the Comanche and remember special trips to Grand Cayman Islands, Grand Canyon, both coasts, family trips and all that, the fun for $ factor is higher in the Cherokee than it is in the Comanche.

If you do not need 200 mph and have any concern about costs, then do not get a faster plane first.
 
Skylane81E said:
Market sets the value, I know a fellow with a plane on Long Island, he keeps it outside as he can afford to replace the glass and paint every couple years for the price delta to a hangar.
Click to expand...


Indeed,

In CA, bought a hangar, $70mo land lease, annuals run 800ish a year, doesn't burn any oil, so oil change every 25hrs (which I do), don't really burn tires or anything.

I budget 800 a year for the plane and fix anything off right when I see it (which isn't often). The hangar is 1200sqft and I also park my car in it at work (work at the airport), and store a few things in pallets in the back.

Fuel costs are whatever I fly, but 9-10gph at 5.60gal, auto fuel STC however no available good autogas.

Had the plane 6-7years now, paid cash when I bought it, and my operation costs arent anything noteworthy.
 
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Skylane81E said:
Market sets the value, I know a fellow with a plane on Long Island, he keeps it outside as he can afford to replace the glass and paint every couple years for the price delta to a hangar.
Click to expand...

We started shopping hangars here when prices started to fall. They're still falling. I haven't figured out exactly why they keep dropping, but we haven't purchased yet.

Our rent goes up this year, however. Boo. Hiss.

Knowing that the prices are dropping and having our rent increased "to cover the increase in airport ground lease" even after offering a reasonable price to buy the hangar outright from our out of state landlord who may be a bit out of touch with what he thinks his hangar is worth, is just additional motivation to buy.

We back burner'd it for a bit to finish Annual and various MX items, but I suspect we will be looking at what's available again soon.

(Cue the KFTG crowd saying to come out there from KAPA and pay half the price. Not happening since at least one of us is still a five minute drive to the hangar -- I'm not anymore. I'm almost equidistant time-wise between KAPA and KFTG now. Better roads to KAPA in winter though.)
 
NineThreeKilo said:
Indeed,

In CA, bought a hangar, $70mo land lease, annuals run 800ish a year, doesn't burn any oil, so oil change every 25hrs (which I do), don't really burn tires or anything.

I budget 800 a year for the plane and fix anything off right when I see it (which isn't often). The hangar is 1200sqft and I also park my car in it at work (work at the airport), and store a few things in pallets in the back.

Fuel costs are whatever I fly, but 9-10gph at 5.60gal, auto fuel STC however no available good autogas.

Had the plane 6-7years now, paid cash when I bought it, and my operation costs arent anything noteworthy.
Click to expand...


I can dig it, I got hangar storage as my "raise" when I took over as DOM so no real cost there. I suppose I could try and guess how much the raise would have been but that is a crapshoot. So my costs are limited to maintenance parts, (filters, oil and two tires this year) insurance, (less than a grand) and fuel. I am FAR from the typical owner however
 
I have seen a picture someplace I can't recall of an enclosed trailer parked at a tie down spot. Holds a folding wing homebuilt. :D

Cheers
 
The OP is back with an update..

Still working on the dream. Kinda gave up on finding a partner. Using a database available from the FAA I sent out 300 mailers to all of the local licensed pilots. Received 8 responses, none of them ultimately panned out. So, I am back to my own means.

Some progress though, I have moved up the list for a hanger. I have also found an AP/AI that will let me assist on maintenance and annuals. Annuals start at $400 and labor is $30/hr. Ex C130 plane captain, does it on the side. Nice guy too.

Anyway, still looking. I am surprised at the number of aircraft that keep reappearing on TAP, Barnstormers month after month, never selling and the price remains the same. Some airplanes are nice just overpriced for the market. I would make an offer if they came down a little but they never do. I also do not like to haggle before I look at the plane, but maybe I am wrong in this approach. Others are way, way over $$$ like a high time 1958 C172 for $55K! I do not get it. I always find selling to be a draining experience and try to get it over with asap. I am thinking that for some of these sellers advertising the aircraft has become a hobby and the do not care if they ever sell.

Stopped looking at short wing pipers. Still like the looks of a C170 but the ones in my price seem to be more project than plane. Also, not sure that a tailwheel is a good first plane. Decided that Cherokees are too small inside for my load. Some Continental C172s are nice but they all seem to be 100 hrs. short of TBO. Piper Warriors are still on the list but there are few of them out there and fewer in my price range.

So if you were selling a plane for $30K and somebody offered you 85-90% over the phone would it upset you? I do not like it done to me but most times when I sell the buyer is driving a short distance.

Still trying to line up the dots.

As always all thoughts are gratefully accepted and thank you
 
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Morgan3820 said:
The OP is back with an update..

.... Still like the looks of a C170 but the ones in my price seem to be more project than plane. .....

As always all thoughts are gratefully accepted and thank you
Click to expand...


Now paging Tom D... Please pick up the white customer service telephone.:yes:;)
 
Morgan3820 said:
The OP is back with an update..

Still working on the dream. Kinda gave up on finding a partner. Using a database available from the FAA I sent out 300 mailers to all of the local licensed pilots. Received 8 responses, none of them ultimately panned out. So, I am back to my own means.

Some progress though, I have moved up the list for a hanger. I have also found an AP/AI that will let me assist on maintenance and annuals. Annuals start at $400 and labor is $30/hr. Ex C130 plane captain, does it on the side. Nice guy too.

Anyway, still looking. I am surprised at the number of aircraft that keep reappearing on TAP, Barnstormers month after month, never selling and the price remains the same. Some airplanes are nice just overpriced for the market. I would make an offer if they came down a little but they never do. I also do not like to haggle before I look at the plane, but maybe I am wrong in this approach. Others are way, way over $$$ like a high time 1958 C172 for $55K! I do not get it. I always find selling to be a draining experience and try to get it over with asap. I am thinking that for some of these sellers advertising the aircraft has become a hobby and the do not care if they ever sell.

Stopped looking at short wing pipers. Still like the looks of a C170 but the ones in my price seem to be more project than plane. Also, not sure that a tailwheel is a good first plane. Decided that Cherokees are too small inside for my load. Some Continental C172s are nice but they all seem to be 100 hrs. short of TBO. Piper Warriors are still on the list but there are few of them out there and fewer in my price range.

So if you were selling a plane for $30K and somebody offered you 85-90% over the phone would it upset you? I do not like it done to me but most times when I sell the buyer is driving a short distance.

Still trying to line up the dots.

As always all thoughts are gratefully accepted and thank you
Click to expand...

Send an email "would you consider $30k, cash for the plane you have listed? Regards, John Doe "


Simple, not overly insulting.

If they say YES, proceed to pre-buy discussions.

If they say NO, proceed to the other 99 for sale.

If they say GFY, it is ok, you weren't looking for a buddy.

Rinse and repeat.
 
Any one here feel that the PA 23 -150 is a good aircraft for a big guy with family?

I would not advise any C-170 for a big guy buying in for less than $45k for a 180 horse "B" model

Contact " Brian 23 here at the blue page, he has a nice one for sale.
 
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Well too the first two annuals, I had gone through the FWF top overhaul and iRAn every accessory, new hoses.... So there is little to replace or fix now that I have had it 5 years. I like to keep my stuff up to snuff. When I had three non equity partners two of them were A&P and IA and they went through it with a fine tooth comb. They paid me $250 a month flat fee and I paid all parts they installed whatever they felt it needed which wasn't much after I had Webco and another IA go through it the first two years.

The IA NEP did not sign off my plane but had another guy do it so we had 3 mechanics go through this plane last annual. I wouldn't really consider it pencil whipped.

We exercise condition based maintenance and watch it like a hawk.




JHW said:
sounds about right. here in IL everything costs more, owner-assisted annuals are $3-400 fixed-gear single, $600-800 for twins, owner supplies all parts.

Parts-included (air filters, oil, oil filters, misc hardware) my travel air annual was $920 this year.
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Jay do you also recommend buying the house? Car? Health insurance you will need 10 years from now?

Airplanes are easily purchased adn sold if you simply list them for what they are worth....like any transportation.


Jay Honeck said:
Back on topic, I have some advice for the OP who is pondering airplane ownership. Take it FWIW, which is exactly what you've paid for it. :D

I've owned four airplanes over the last 15 years. IMHO, my first plane -- that cheap "starter plane" that you're looking for right now -- was an enormous waste of time and money. ALL of which could have been saved, in the long run, if I had only looked farther down the road than 5 years.

My first was a Piper Cherokee Warrior, which is basically in the class you're discussing now. Small useful load (really a 2+2, not a true 4-seater), small engine, small acquisition price.

In the end, we only owned it for four years, because I was stupid and did not adequately take into account our future needs, as caused by growing kids (useful load) and farther distances (something faster than 110 knots) to travel for business.

IMHO the "starter airplane" is a mirage, and a costly one at that. Instead, sit down and examine you're time horizon realistically, as follows:

1. What's your age? If you're 30, look at least 15 years out. That's the length loan you'll be taking. Adjust with age.

2. Got kids? How old are your kids? Project them out ten years. Will your little boy weigh 220 pounds in 2023? Maybe that Skyhawk isn't such a great idea.

3. How far away is your family? Where do you WANT to fly? Planning to move farther away? We learned that flying long distances with little kids in a plane as slow as a Warrior was not fun.

Bottom line: Learn from my mistakes. I loved that Warrior to death, but in the end I should have skipped it altogether and bought the plane I've owned for the last 11 years, the bigger, faster Piper Pathfinder. I would have been money, and mostly time, ahead.

If you think you can't afford such a capable plane, get a partner. Owning the right plane with a partner is better than owning the wrong plane by yourself.

And remember -- a bigger engine will cost more up front, but does not necessarily mean higher operational costs. If you're in no hurry you can always pull back the throttle and putter around at Skyhawk fuel burns and speeds, if you want -- but when you need the climb and speed, it's there at your command.

My advice: Buy the plane you think you will need in 5, 10, maybe 15 years. Skip the plane that only makes sense today.
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I went through a similar choosing process about 3 years ago, and chose a 1965 172G. Have been very happy with it having flown about 300 hours around the country. Would strongly recommend, they usually have about 900 lbs useful load, do around 110 KTAS, and they are a bargain compared to the newer ones and will do anything the newer ones will do. Backseat will work fine for an adult or two kids.

Cherokees are good too and can be had even cheaper, but can be a bit cramped in the back. But still a bargain! (There now Tony wont yell at me!)

O-300 support is not going way anytime soon, cylinders are cheap compared to Lycoming, spares are everywhere and you can even get a new crankshaft from TCM if they overhaul it (they use the identical part from the IO-360 engine).

Morgan3820 said:
The OP is back
...
My takeway from all of this is:
$300/month is not enough, but might not be too far off.
Any of the aircraft mentioned would work but a 63-67 C172 may represent the best choice in terms of simplicity/value, with a Cherokee a close second.

Thanks for all of the good ideas!
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Depends how big, its like a Cessna 152 with a backseat. Much more narrow than a Skyhawk or Cherokee. Glides like a brick, 900-1000 fpm descent. I looked at a few but was uncomfortable in the seats (6'3 270 lb).

Tom-D said:
Any one here feel that the PA 23 -150 is a good aircraft for a big guy with family?

I would not advise any C-170 for a big guy buying in for less than $45k for a 180 horse "B" model

Contact " Brian 23 here at the blue page, he has a nice one for sale.
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NotSure said:
Depends how big, its like a Cessna 152 with a backseat. Much more narrow than a Skyhawk or Cherokee. Glides like a brick, 900-1000 fpm descent. I looked at a few but was uncomfortable in the seats (6'3 270 lb).
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Oh how I long for the days when I could sit in a 150.:)

I was 21 years old, 6' tall, 188lbs lean, run 4 miles a day in the US Army.:)
 
NotSure said:
Cherokees are good too and can be had even cheaper, but can be a bit cramped in the back. But still a bargain! (There now Tony wont yell at me!)
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Absolutely true. Front seats without pax are fine as you can push back as far as you want. With an adult in the back I push my seat up to where the yoke almost hits my belly when pulling it out.

Backseat of a cherokee is not a comfortable position, its more like cross country in a sports car back seat. You can do it but you will be glad for the breaks.

I had my 5'10" 200lb son and his girl friend sit in the back seat 1600 miles from ICT to TBM tamiami.

It wasn't something they wanted to do many times.

of my 880 hrs in a Cherokee only about 40 are with pax in the rear seat another 100 with someone in the front seat with me.

I think a Cardinal RG might have been a great firsts/last plane. Although I would have always secretly wished for a Turbo Comanche so maybe its better I got that out of my system.:)
 
Morgan3820 said:
The OP is back with an update..

So if you were selling a plane for $30K and somebody offered you 85-90% over the phone would it upset you? I do not like it done to me but most times when I sell the buyer is driving a short distance.

Still trying to line up the dots.
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Sounds fair to me....:yes: If he really wants to sell...:stirpot:
 
NotSure said:
Depends how big, its like a Cessna 152 with a backseat. Much more narrow than a Skyhawk or Cherokee. Glides like a brick, 900-1000 fpm descent. I looked at a few but was uncomfortable in the seats (6'3 270 lb).
Click to expand...

The PA 23-160 is nothing like a C-150.

the big guy should be pretty comfortable in the Apache.
 
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