MOSAIC rule to be published on 7/24

To be delightfully surprised by the FAA ... this is new to me! when I read the news yesterday I had to pinch myself. Kudos to the folks who helped make this happen. Let's hope it makes it all the way through relatively unchanged!
 
I believe the TL Sport "Sparker" is great example of what's to come for Sport Pilots. I suspect the ROTAX 915 and 916IS power plants will likely lead the way in the proposed mLSA airplanes.
 

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To be delightfully surprised by the FAA ... this is new to me! when I read the news yesterday I had to pinch myself. Kudos to the folks who helped make this happen. Let's hope it makes it all the way through relatively unchanged!

Don't worry. They'll disappoint you soon enough. Just give them a chance.
 
Aaaaannnnnnnnddddddd...... From the wording of the proposed reg, looks like that is STILL not fixed for the case where the prop came and went... Prolly worth commenting on when they open up the comments.

(b) If you hold a sport pilot certificate, you may act as pilot in command of an
airplane that, since its original certification, has retractable landing gear or a controllable
pitch propeller if you have met the training and endorsement requirements specified in
§ 61.331
Yeah, I'll try to write something up as a suggestion. It would be better if it says something along the lines of: *currently meets TCDS specifications* that match sport aircraft regs.

We probably need multiple people pointing that out to get some traction.
 
Is there any reason to limit seat-count if there a separate limit on passenger count (and a separate weight limit)? It seems silly to say you can fly an airplane with four seats if you only fill two of them. Why does seat-count matter?
 
Doing a quick search for C182 POHs on Google, depending on model and year the KCAS stall speeds I'm seeing are all 56 or 54 knots. Here are a couple of the 54s:

But the first one you posted shows max gross TO weight of 3100 pounds, so over the proposed 3000 pound limit.
 
But the first one you posted shows max gross TO weight of 3100 pounds, so over the proposed 3000 pound limit.
3000 pounds is not a limit. It's just a number that has been thrown around needlessly. There is no gross weight or maximum speed limits when it come to sport pilot airplane privileges.

Why does seat-count matter?
Given the lack of gross weight limit, they are using seats to not put us light and sporty guys in an AN-2. :)
 
3000 pounds is not a limit. It's just a number that has been thrown around needlessly. There is no gross weight or maximum speed limits when it come to sport pilot airplane privileges.


Given the lack of gross weight limit, they are using seats to not put us light and sporty guys in an AN-2. :)

Ah! I was under the impression that there was a weight limit in the suggested rule. Thank you.

Also... I think I'd prefer a weight limit to a chair limit...
 
Is there any reason to limit seat-count if there a separate limit on passenger count (and a separate weight limit)? It seems silly to say you can fly an airplane with four seats if you only fill two of them. Why does seat-count matter?
How about an enticement to "upgrade" to a PPL?
 
Yeah, I'll try to write something up as a suggestion. It would be better if it says something along the lines of: *currently meets TCDS specifications* that match sport aircraft regs.

We probably need multiple people pointing that out to get some traction.
I certainly will. There are plenty of cases where this creates a nonsensical situation.
How about an enticement to "upgrade" to a PPL?
Lots of us who are limited to SP privileges are flying with PP, Commercial, and even ATP certificates. I suspect that makes up a fairly sizeable percentage of the LSA market.
 
I'm delighted with this NPRM and I think if it is codified as is that it will be a huge win for GA!
I know some are disapointed that a path to move some of the legacy fleet into LSA wasn't included, but this really was never going to happen and was out of scope for MOSAIC.
The NPRM makes a larger portion of the GA fleet accessible to Sport Pilots and creates a path for middle aged aircraft owners like myself to age out of their aircraft.
I think the biggest win is that much more capable aircraft will be available as LSA. Some have already posted some more capable aircraft meeting the NPRM LSA spec available now. It will take some time for manufacturers to offer new viable models, I'm guessing 3 - 5 years, but it will happen. Some manufacturers may already be in the process of designing/testing new aircraft like Vans and the RV-15. The age of 6 pack spam cans is coming to a close.
Those that are mechanically inclined, don't mind maintaining their own aircraft, and are willing to obtain the proper certs will see their operating costs plummet.
 
I'm guessing 3 - 5 years, but it will happen. Some manufacturers may already be in the process of designing/testing new aircraft like Vans and the RV-15.

I'd bet that many of the current LSA manufacturers have been quietly sitting on plans for 4 seaters and/or higher gross weight models for a while now, and will be ready for production as soon as an effective date for MOSAIC's final rule is set.
 
I'd bet that many of the current LSA manufacturers have been quietly sitting on plans for 4 seaters and/or higher gross weight models for a while now, and will be ready for production as soon as an effective date for MOSAIC's final rule is set.

I wouldn't be surprised at all. That was a poor choice of words on my part, instead of viable I should have said proven.
 
I'd bet that many of the current LSA manufacturers have been quietly sitting on plans for 4 seaters and/or higher gross weight models for a while now, and will be ready for production as soon as an effective date for MOSAIC's final rule is set.
Yeah, aren't designs like that legal LSAs (or the local equivalent) in other countries already?
 
I'd bet that many of the current LSA manufacturers have been quietly sitting on plans for 4 seaters and/or higher gross weight models for a while now, and will be ready for production as soon as an effective date for MOSAIC's final rule is set.

Agreed. I'd be surprised if Oshkosh next week isn't full of announcements along these lines.

I don't think a lot of people grasp the enormous change to recreational GA this is. I don't think it will be too long (a few decades?) before the vast majority of aircraft being flown recreationally are SLSA. I've been waiting for these changes for 10 years. I've been shopping the new/used legacy SLSA and Part 23 market and I'm done with that. I want to see what MOSAIC brings now...
 
I'd bet that many of the current LSA manufacturers have been quietly sitting on plans for 4 seaters and/or higher gross weight models for a while now, and will be ready for production as soon as an effective date for MOSAIC's final rule is set.

They have been, except not all that quietly. The usage of ASTM standards for approval has allowed manufacturers who are members to get information as it developed. Bristell, Montaer, Airplane Factory and Sonex have all released designs or actual planes that they have called mLSA (Mosaic LSA). They're all 4 seater high wing models.
 
They have been, except not all that quietly. The usage of ASTM standards for approval has allowed manufacturers who are members to get information as it developed. Bristell, Montaer, Airplane Factory and Sonex have all released designs or actual planes that they have called mLSA (Mosaic LSA). They're all 4 seater high wing models.

Very true, very true.
 
So does I assume this means 150s, 172s and the like go up in price and perhaps Champs, Cubs and others go down a little in price.
 
So does I assume this means 150s, 172s and the like go up in price and perhaps Champs, Cubs and others go down a little in price.
I was thinking the same. And waiting list for clubs that have newly-eligible airplanes will be that much longer.
 
So does I assume this means 150s, 172s and the like go up in price and perhaps Champs, Cubs and others go down a little in price.

Maybe... there are only 6,000-7,000 Sport Pilots out there, but probably a much larger number of Private-or-higher Pilots that are exercising Sport Pilot privileges. Since that number is almost impossible to know, it's hard to say how much it may impact standard category aircraft resale.

It's almost certain that it will drive down prices of current LSAs, though.
 
I wonder if any existing LSAs will have their allowable gross re evaluated? They are capable of more than 1250, but was set at that to meet LSA allowability.

I also wonder if CFIs will teach aspiring sport pilots now. There seems to be a bias against Sport Pilots from a lot of CFIs out there.
 
Vans doesn't seem to publish clean stall speeds... I can see that changing.

Naturally and regardless my own plane stalls at 54 kts with flaps extended, not clean :)
Just call the flaps spoilers. The "clean" position is down and when you raise them up they destroy your lift!
 
So does I assume this means 150s, 172s and the like go up in price and perhaps Champs, Cubs and others go down a little in price.
I think they will see a modest increase in price. C172 prices have already skyrocket into the ridiculous level. From a selfish perspective I hope they continue to appreciate though...
 
I wonder if any existing LSAs will have their allowable gross re evaluated? They are capable of more than 1250, but was set at that to meet LSA allowability.

I also wonder if CFIs will teach aspiring sport pilots now. There seems to be a bias against Sport Pilots from a lot of CFIs out there.

I hope so, although IDK what the legal framework for this would be. That said, the landing gear of a lot of existing LSA's is the Achilles heel of some designs so IDK that a higher gross is really doable in a lot of cases...

Regarding training Sport Pilots, if nothing else, it would allow a lot of flight schools to train aspiring Sport Pilot's with their existing fleets of aircraft like C150/C152's and C172's. Also it would open up a lot of rental/club possibilities for newly minted Sport Pilots that aren't ready or able to take the aircraft ownership plunge. Of course, there's the whole insurance perspective which I guess we'll have to see how that plays out...
 
I'm delighted with this NPRM and I think if it is codified as is that it will be a huge win for GA!
I don't see the "huge" in it. By LSAers' own admission, the demographic is small. LSA pilots are not even a plurality of the recreational demographic. Most people qualify for Basic Med, even in present handicapped circumstances.

I know some are disapointed that a path to move some of the legacy fleet into LSA wasn't included, but this really was never going to happen and was out of scope for MOSAIC.
And this is the only reason I'm replying in the first place. Someone was bound to go there, so here we go:

To the bolded: It's true it wasn't going to happen, but not for the reason you state. Don't rationalize what didn't get through in order to pitch one's newfound benefactor as good faith actors. Same rationalization from the LAMA people: "oh, this was only about allowing LSAs into the photowork space". Yeah, that "giant of industry" subsector was the reason the lines were long about MOSAIC debate, sure thing... *eyeroll* The goal-post shifting is epic.

The NPRM makes a larger portion of the GA fleet accessible to Sport Pilots and creates a path for middle aged aircraft owners like myself to age out of their aircraft.
Again, people who can't meet BasicMed are not inflection cases, nor will their participation "save GA", by volume. I got nothing against people who can't hold a third class, but they're not the plurality of the participants who patronize the recreational sector of aviation. Fiddling around the edges and calling it "huge" wins is precisely the 'elixir of incrementalism' that keeps the line items that are statistically substantive (and thus deal with the controversial stuff the powers that be don't want to let go of), firmly ossified in place.

I see nothing about BasicMed that would preclude me from owning my aircraft going forward, LSA or not. The day I can't legitimately self-certify under BasicMed is the day I'd have no business getting in any flying contraption, LSAs very much included. So as a middle aged aircraft owner, I don't see this being a "middle age" relevant inflection.

I think the biggest win is that much more capable aircraft will be available as LSA.
No, that's called moot, without pricing context. It doesn't escape me in the least how that inconvenient line item has been largely whistled past in this thread, save by one poster who brought it up. Just like healthcare, "available vis affordable" sleight of hand.

Those that are mechanically inclined, don't mind maintaining their own aircraft, and are willing to obtain the proper certs will see their operating costs plummet.
No it won't, for the same reason as above. CAPEX. Six of mine, half a dozen of yours. Let me guess, you also believe the housing axiom that spending a dollar to save a quarter (mortgage deduction) saves you money.

The dynamics of the issue here are still affordability and control/discretion (which feedback loops to the former). If anything, this continues to cement the decline of the hobby, precisely because it doesn't tackle the regulatory burden for the airplanes that are actually affordable in the real world. A world where most can in fact hold a 3rd class medical, to say nothing of basicmed. But now the can gets kicked down the road another decade, because "we gave you mosaic, now be quiet for a while". By my count they're going about a decade to the day, from the last so-called reform (part 23). If this is called winning, I wanna start losing for a bit.

Now, if the argument is that some hypothetical tsunami wave of Euro performance capable LSA will flood the production lines, creating a glut of used inventory to replace the current fac built in 30 years, when the former are fully depreciated and thus people of median means can enter that market? Sure. But even if I were to stipulate that outcome (and I don't, for reasons I will not expand on for the sake of brevity), that means one of us will prob dead by then, and both certainly long past being in a position to shoehorn into a proverbial eurozone-compatible contraption in the first place.

And not that it matters, but I'm of the opinion the future is EAB, not SLSA. And the market will continue to shrink, and will be less democratic, independent of the strides EAB is making on keeping it accessible.
 
I also wonder if CFIs will teach aspiring sport pilots now. There seems to be a bias against Sport Pilots from a lot of CFIs out there.
Sport pilot’s been around for a while. Any current bias was earned. And I say that as a CFI willing to work with LSAs.
 
Sport pilot’s been around for a while. Any current bias was earned. And I say that as a CFI willing to work with LSAs.
What is really funny that there is hardly any difference in training regime between SP and PP.
SP or PP, most people fail or give up because they can’t master the basics like landing and in general handling multiple things at the same time in a stressful environment - these are the same regardless if you are training in a LSA or a a Cessna 172 and the actual differences between SP and PP training like slightly longer cross country or some basic night flying are not the deciding factor here.
 
I don't see the "huge" in it. By LSAers' own admission, the demographic is small. LSA pilots are not even a plurality of the recreational demographic. Most people qualify for Basic Med, even in present handicapped circumstances.


And this is the only reason I'm replying in the first place. Someone was bound to go there, so here we go:

...........

Yeah is this the kind of take on this I have seen that I just don't understand. By any objective measure, this is a giant deregulation of most of the recreational GA space. Sure a lot of you legacy large part 23 aircraft drivers are gonna yawn and be like, "this is a nothing burger". Maybe some of this stems from a worry that the resale market for these aircraft just got smaller as guys like me shift focus to the SLSA space. You just completely miss the fact that we're not just talking about the SPL demographic, huge numbers of PPL folks like me will now shift focus to SLSA aircraft. The future is EAB? This appears specifically written to eventually pull most of the EAB market into the SLSA fold which I think is what you'll see. Without going further point by point, I just think that time will tell that you're wrong and this will have a hugely positive impact on GA in the long run.
 
Does this reduce costs in building a plane the size of a Skyhawk because they can now use the self certified process that LSA uses vs a the current process used by say Cessna for a c172?
 
I don't see the "huge" in it. By LSAers' own admission, the demographic is small. LSA pilots are not even a plurality of the recreational demographic. Most people qualify for Basic Med, even in present handicapped circumstances.

It's hard to say. How many pilots hold Private Pilot or higher certs and are exercising Sport Pilot privileges? How many would going forward if this becomes rule? What's the "LSAers' own admission" you're referencing, honestly curious.

To the bolded: It's true it wasn't going to happen, but not for the reason you state. Don't rationalize what didn't get through in order to pitch one's newfound benefactor as good faith actors. Same rationalization from the LAMA people: "oh, this was only about allowing LSAs into the photowork space". Yeah, that "giant of industry" subsector was the reason the lines were long about MOSAIC debate, sure thing... *eyeroll* The goal-post shifting is epic.

Well, all I can say is MOSAIC, Modernization of Special Airworthiness Certification. The "Special" is important. Existing aircraft not previously certificated as Special were never going to be part of this...

Again, people who can't meet BasicMed are not inflection cases, nor will their participation "save GA", by volume. I got nothing against people who can't hold a third class, but they're not the plurality of the participants who patronize the recreational sector of aviation. Fiddling around the edges and calling it "huge" wins is precisely the 'elixir of incrementalism' that keeps the line items that are statistically substantive (and thus deal with the controversial stuff the powers that be don't want to let go of), firmly ossified in place.

I see nothing about BasicMed that would preclude me from owning my aircraft going forward, LSA or not. The day I can't legitimately self-certify under BasicMed is the day I'd have no business getting in any flying contraption, LSAs very much included. So as a middle aged aircraft owner, I don't see this being a "middle age" relevant inflection.

I understand your perspective (I think) but there's more to it than being "fit to fly" or BasicMed eligible. I hope you won't have to learn through experience. By the FAA's own admission the vast majority of pilots with a disqualifying condition are able to obtain a SI - In some cases (sounds like more than a few) if they're willing to spend the time, money and aggravation. Why even go this route if you don't have to? Then there's the access to BasicMed. How many threads are on POA about pilots having difficulty finding a physician to administer the exam and sign the paper?


No, that's called moot, without pricing context. It doesn't escape me in the least how that inconvenient line item has been largely whistled past in this thread, save by one poster who brought it up. Just like healthcare, "available vis affordable" sleight of hand.

Where is you pricing data to make your claim?


No it won't, for the same reason as above. CAPEX. Six of mine, half a dozen of yours. Let me guess, you also believe the housing axiom that spending a dollar to save a quarter (mortgage deduction) saves you money.

The dynamics of the issue here are still affordability and control/discretion (which feedback loops to the former). If anything, this continues to cement the decline of the hobby, precisely because it doesn't tackle the regulatory burden for the airplanes that are actually affordable in the real world. A world where most can in fact hold a 3rd class medical, to say nothing of basicmed. But now the can gets kicked down the road another decade, because "we gave you mosaic, now be quiet for a while". By my count they're going about a decade to the day, from the last so-called reform (part 23). If this is called winning, I wanna start losing for a bit.

Now, if the argument is that some hypothetical tsunami wave of Euro performance capable LSA will flood the production lines, creating a glut of used inventory to replace the current fac built in 30 years, when the former are fully depreciated and thus people of median means can enter that market? Sure. But even if I were to stipulate that outcome (and I don't, for reasons I will not expand on for the sake of brevity), that means one of us will prob dead by then, and both certainly long past being in a position to shoehorn into a proverbial eurozone-compatible contraption in the first place.

And not that it matters, but I'm of the opinion the future is EAB, not SLSA. And the market will continue to shrink, and will be less democratic, independent of the strides EAB is making on keeping it accessible.

I'll be happy to respond to this, but first, are you aware what it takes to obtain a Light Sport Repairman cert? Are you aware that currently S-LSA aircraft may be moved to E-LSA?
 
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I don’t think new factory built LSA planes will sell a lot faster regardless of whether they can have four seats installed, two of them useable by Sport Pilots, or be built much heavier with much more power and performance. They will be be better, more useful, safer planes than current LSAs but their cost will remain beyond the means of most people, I don’t see economy of scale coming into play, and competition from the used market will not go away. In the short term they will sell a little faster. That’s a good thing but it will not create an immediate revolution. In the long term as the price and availability of clean used planes diminishes, the effect of the legislation will increase but that will take decades. By that time they may have increased the Vs1 limit to 61 knots too, matching current FAA certification requirements.

My interest in this is looking forward 10-20 years (I’m in my 50s), at which time if this passes intact I’d be able to buy a used experimental RV-9 for a reasonable price and continue my current style of flying (with increasing aircraft performance in my retirement) without ever taking another aeromedical exam of any kind. That is a nice thought, even without having any current medical issues.

Maybe Vans will put the RV-9 into factory production, but regardless I’ll be interested in a used one if a new one costs e.g. $250K or more.

PS I don’t understand the motivation for a variable pitch prop to have been part of original type certification or originally installed on the particular airframe (either one). If the installation was legally approved by any method, what does it matter?
 
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There are two truths.

1. This is a good change. It will help a lot of pilots.

2. It's not as good is it could be.

I choose to dwell on the first and I'm happy, though it doesn't do much for me personally. Some here are hung up on #2, well, OK.

I like Ryan's thought above and my comment to the register will be to change "since originally certified" to "currently meets TCDS specifications" . Seems like it would encourage people to get the STCs that lower stall speed if nothing else. A good thing.
 
I like Ryan's thought above and my comment to the register will be to change "since originally certified" to "currently meets TCDS specifications" . Seems like it would encourage people to get the STCs that lower stall speed if nothing else. A good thing.
Don’t forget field approvals - for example I have a field approved CS speed prop on my certified aircraft, perfectly legal but not on the TCDS. My comment would be to suggest a change to “approved installation under regulations applicable to the aircraft type”

This NPRM certainly is a good and rational thing, world leading when you consider the ridiculous over regulation of medical certification to fly useful size and performance aircraft in most countries. Only UK has anything similar. Also the weight limits and geographical restrictions that apply to high performance ULs in EASA land, that won’t be relevant for US operation of up to 3000 lb aircraft.

I think the effect of the medical certification changes for people flying existing, larger certified and experimental aircraft will be the most noticeable effect. It was however smart of FAA to bundle that with LSA regulatory change, almost like they planned this progression since 2004. Hopefully the package will sell and in time we’ll see some new factory produced aircraft slowly building in numbers.
 
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I wonder if any existing LSAs will have their allowable gross re evaluated? They are capable of more than 1250, but was set at that to meet LSA allowability.

I also wonder if CFIs will teach aspiring sport pilots now. There seems to be a bias against Sport Pilots from a lot of CFIs out there.
The Jabiru for sure, and a few others are just an LSA on paper. Regarding the CFI bias, I completely agree as many seem to think a Sport Pilot is "beneath them"! I know of 3 personally who just blew me off. Very strange indeed, as I just wanted the extra experience and training!
 
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Does this reduce costs in building a plane the size of a Skyhawk because they can now use the self certified process that LSA uses vs a the current process used by say Cessna for a c172?
That's the $250K question! If Vans offers the RV-15 as a LSA that price point will likely tell a lot...
 
Anyone know what an Antonov AN2 Vs1 is?

Looking for a 12,000 pound LSA :)

When I flew it, light it lifted off at about 23 knots. Hard to say as the airspeed indicator was bouncing on the peg.

Did a low pass down the runway at an airshow, tower had us at 44 knot GS.
 
It seems that it would be simpler to just update the current LSA list to include include all the non-retractable two and four seaters from Cessna, Beech, Piper, Grumman etc. up to 180hp. To put a stall speed limitation that would make some aircraft disqualified because they’re a knot or two over their established limit is ridiculous. But then we’re dealing with the FAA that has a tendency to over complicate the smallest issue.
 
It seems that it would be simpler to just update the current LSA list to include include all the non-retractable two and four seaters from Cessna, Beech, Piper, Grumman etc. up to 180hp. To put a stall speed limitation that would make some aircraft disqualified because they’re a knot or two over their established limit is ridiculous. But then we’re dealing with the FAA that has a tendency to over complicate the smallest issue.


Simpler, yes, but unfortunately very unlikely. What you suggest was not the goal of those who created this rule change.

I am certain that LSA manufacturers were the primary drivers for the proposed rule. They'd like to bring some of their European aircraft into the US LSA market. (Take a look at the new Tecnam P-Mentor in the latest issue of FLYING.) They have NO interest in getting old Pipers, Cessnas, Beeches, etc., into that same market. In fact, they have every reason not to want those planes approved. Why would they want Sport Pilots to buy 152s and Cherokees?

The sad fact is that there is no one, other than a handful of us pilot nobodies, seriously advocating to classify a 50-year-old Cherokee as light-sport eligible. The LSA manufacturers don't want it, the EAA is only interested in experimentals, and the AOPA's only interest in SPs is suckering them into paying dues.

So, the rule change is aimed at bringing more capable LSAs into eligibility and expanding the LSA builders' market. Any legacy aircraft that get swept up (a few Cessnas, whatever) will be purely by happenstance, but you can expect the AOPA to make lots of noise about getting the approval for them.
 
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