More Piper Comanche questions!

I think some have already mentioned that the Comanche, like the Mooney, needs to be "on airspeed" stabilized for good landings, but I don't recall anyone pointing out that the Bonanza may be the world's easiest airplane to land. You have to work hard to land a Bo poorly.
 
I think some have already mentioned that the Comanche, like the Mooney, needs to be "on airspeed" stabilized for good landings, but I don't recall anyone pointing out that the Bonanza may be the world's easiest airplane to land. You have to work hard to land a Bo poorly.
certainly the easiest to land that I've flown....;)
 
What is the approach speed for a Comanche? 80kts?
You talking about short final for landing or instrument approaches?

For the former, my target was 72 kts/83 mph at max gross; 70/80 for short fields.
For the latter, my SOP (not the only right one) on most of these, including the Bo, Comanche and Mooney, is in two steps. I slow to 120 KTS when in the approach environment and then slow to 105 (clean) prior to the FAF. Gear down to go down without touching much else maintains that speed until I'm ready to land.
 
I think some have already mentioned that the Comanche, like the Mooney, needs to be "on airspeed" stabilized for good landings, but I don't recall anyone pointing out that the Bonanza may be the world's easiest airplane to land. You have to work hard to land a Bo poorly.

Is it because the landing gear is up higher than most airplanes including the Comanche? Or is it possibly the visibility?

So far for me the Archer has been the easiest for me. Don't need much rudder at all, and I learned how to fly on a Champ...:(

You talking about short final for landing or instrument approaches?

For the former, my target was 72 kts/83 mph at max gross; 70/80 for short fields.
For the latter, my SOP (not the only right one) on most of these, including the Bo, Comanche and Mooney, is in two steps. I slow to 120 KTS when in the approach environment and then slow to 105 (clean) prior to the FAF. Gear down to go down without touching much else maintains that speed until I'm ready to land.

Short final, are Comanches more difficult to slow down compared to other low wing airplanes? (I know the pull the throttle joke already) :)
 
Is it because the landing gear is up higher than most airplanes including the Comanche? Or is it possibly the visibility?

So far for me the Archer has been the easiest for me. Don't need much rudder at all, and I learned how to fly on a Champ...:(



Short final, are Comanches more difficult to slow down compared to other low wing airplanes? (I know the pull the throttle joke already) :)

The theory is yes, the taller gear prevents ground effect from having as much of an influence. Never flown a Comanche or Mooney but I can say a Bonanza and Baron are about the easiest planes I have ever landed.
 
Is it because the landing gear is up higher than most airplanes including the Comanche? Or is it possibly the visibility?

So far for me the Archer has been the easiest for me. Don't need much rudder at all, and I learned how to fly on a Champ...:(
I think it's a combination of a lot of inherent stability and very forgiving landing gear. Talking about rudder reminds me - the Debonair has a rudder and aileron interconnect (a number of others do as well). This is nice in cruise since you can make shallow turns with one only and the other will come along. But the first time you do a crosswind landing in a significant crosswind, one can find the extra rudder pressure necessary to overcome the bungee a bit disconcerting. It's a good reason to reserve some checkout time for crosswind work.


Short final, are Comanches more difficult to slow down compared to other low wing airplanes? (I know the pull the throttle joke already) :)
It's a slippery laminar flow wing, so it's more like a Mooney or Tiger than like a 172 or PA28 or even a Deb. It means learning to think much more ahead of the airplane and planning for slowing down rather than expecting it to happen immediately when you reduce the throttle, but to me, that mentality is part and parcel of learning how to fly any retract. In terms of short final, if you've been flying good airspeeds in the rest of the pattern, that final slowdown isn't a big deal.
 
One plus for the Comanche is that it will hold six Instagrammers, but only if flown by a student pilot.
 
found this statement on line...

"The Comanche 180 was a modest performer, with rates of climb in the neighborhood of 600 to 900 fpm, cruise speeds in the 116- to 139-knot range, and fuel burns between 7.5 and 10.5 gph."

Is that true? Speed and climb performance sounds pretty anemic... I thought it'd be better
 
Is that true? Speed and climb performance sounds pretty anemic... I thought it'd be better

It is a bigger and heavier airframe than an Arrow. It uses a smaller engine than most Arrows. The fact that it is about as fast as a Arrow tells us it has a slicker airframe. But the extra weight reduces climb performance.
 
Barry, I noticed you sent this to me as a PM too, so here's my answer...

My annuals range from $1000 to $2500, usually, and that includes work done. I had a $2500 annual last year which was on the pricey side for me, but that included some light maintenance including replacing brake pads, finding a small hydraulic leak, some rigging and control cable tensioning. Some other stuff too which escapes my memory at the moment.

I have a few items which I've been nursing along such as mags (they're due for overhaul), new ignition harnesses and the valve cleaning SB which somehow I never knew about in all these years of ownership, but is due every 400 hours or so. I'm doing the SB now and will do the mags sometime later in the year. Those are just normal costs of ownership for any plane. When you own a twin you get to do certain things in 2s or 4s instead of 1s or 2s.

The PA-30 is the bang-for-the-buck light twin. There are cheaper twins (think Apache) but they don't offer much in return for the investment except multi time for timebuilders. The TwinCo gives you 160-165KTAS on 16-17 GPH, the ability to carry four "normal" sized people and full fuel, and the lowest overall operating costs for the performance. With tip tanks the range is outstanding. I still consider adding the tips to my bird; it's the one thing I've always regretted when I selected this particular PA-30.

The MGW service ceiling is an honest 5000-6000' MSL depending on the usual factors of weight, temperature, etc. I'm comfortable at MEAs over the Rockies as my drift down performance usually gives me a dozen airports to pick from within 100nm of any given possible failure point.

As I've alluded to elsewhere I certainly wouldn't mind the size, power and performance of a deiced BE58, but can't justify spending double the operating costs (not to mention the initial investment which would be at least 2-3x more than a comparable TwinCo.)

Hope this helps,

You got any recent photos of your plane (interior/exterior) anywhere?
 
Well, one area is the landing gear. Any RG airplane which uses bungees is sort of a poor man's alternative out of the gates. Again, I say that as a huge Comanche fan.

I don't see the issue with the bungee gear, it make for a simple system with less failure modes. Think of all the problems the Cessnas have had with their hydraulic system.

found this statement on line...

"The Comanche 180 was a modest performer, with rates of climb in the neighborhood of 600 to 900 fpm, cruise speeds in the 116- to 139-knot range, and fuel burns between 7.5 and 10.5 gph."

Is that true? Speed and climb performance sounds pretty anemic... I thought it'd be better

In the 180 we used to have, we usually planned for 135-140 kts true at 9 gph. Those climb rates seem about right depending on load. I've taken a trip with three adults, bags, full fuel, and still had adequate performance.
 
How are the roll rates on a Comanche 250 compared to a Debonair?
 
You got a V Tail right? What is your best glide speed? Someone told me they drop like a rock, but maybe thats an OWT.
They dont drop as bad as my Cherokee six but worse than a Cessna. Glide speed is 95-100 mph. Mine is a V35A. I don’t know how that compares with the Comanche....I’d image they’re similar in that respect.
 
I hate to tell you this, but the cockpit dimensions of the Ovation Ultra I sat in at Oshkosh were about the same as my 55 year old Ranger. I've flown my instructor's Ovation, and it's tight with him and I. Even modern Mooneys aren't ideal for those wide of beam. That said, you don' get more bang for the buck out of anything.
I agree with this! I know all the Mooney’s had the same width, but the older ones do have more room up front. My best friend owns a 1966 M20C, which I have many hours in. I flew an Acclaim S a few weeks ago and got the two planes side by side. We measured the height of the cabin and the 66 M20C is taller, measured the width and they were within an inch. The Acclaim has thicker leather side panels with a lot more sound proofing while the older models had thinner plastics and basically no sound proofing. The added height of the new instrument panels gives a very claustrophobic feeling.
 
I don't see the issue with the bungee gear, it make for a simple system with less failure modes. Think of all the problems the Cessnas have had with their hydraulic system.

Unfortunately that sentiment hasn't translated to the real world. The weak area of the Comanche is the gear, hands down. We've had an inordinate number of gear collapses over the years, often from improper (or nonexistent) bungee maintenance, occasionally from bungling the emergency extension procedure, and for a while we were dealing with underwriters requesting, or in some cases demanding a $10,000 deductible for gear-related accidents on PA-24s and PA-30s. Luckily, we seem to be doing a bit better lately.

The 1,000 hour gear AD needs to be completed correctly. It's not an inconsequential task, and anything less than a thorough and professional job is the first hole in the swiss cheese "Reason" model that will lead to some kind of gear up landing, or gear collapse, down the road. We have seen many instances in which this AD was poorly or improperly done, or worse, pencil-whipped.

Do I think bungees are "bad?" No, they're a cost-effective but maintenance-heavy selection by Piper which kept the cost of manufacture down. That's one of the factors that lead to a guy like me being able to afford to own and operate a light twin. Can an astute owner manage the gear safely and effectively over the lifetime of the aircraft? Again, absolutely. But it requires attention and focus to this area, and not all owners are good at paying attention to what their airplanes need in their maintenance cycles.

There are some significant advantages to the Comanche's gear. It's all electric and the gear are mechanically linked. It's almost impossible for one gear to be down without all of the others. The transmission itself is a simple little gadget, pretty easy to maintain. Over time the conduits and wiring sometimes need work, but it's straightforward. A regularly flown Comanche with good gear AD work and bungees swapped out every few years will be fine.

And by the way - I agree, this system is much better than any of the Cessna single RGs.
 
Bungees maintenance heavy? $30 every two years, twenty minutes a side using the Bogert tool, which is around $90. Cheaper if you can get he guy down the row to spring for it.
 
....and if you're lucky...you can get the town bum to sign off your annual. lol ;)
 
You got any recent photos of your plane (interior/exterior) anywhere?

Dangerous question for an aircraft owner...

Exterior photo is when I had new wing-walk applied a few months back. Looks so much nicer.

Main thing on hold is my G5 HSI. I'm currently on vacation with my family (there went a chance for the HSI), before that I needed a couple of root canals and crowns. Damn it all!

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Bungees maintenance heavy? $30 every two years, twenty minutes a side using the Bogert tool, which is around $90. Cheaper if you can get he guy down the row to spring for it.

Yes. Believe me, I understand what you're saying, and you're correct, but it's enough of a challenge for owners that we have gear collapses on the reg from owners who don't understand how to do this. My point is this is a breed-specific weakness for which owner awareness and minimal savvy is more than enough antidote, but that's not enough to fully mitigate the fleet wide challenge. (For a much more 'impactful' example of this kind of problem, see: Cirrus pilots who think CAPS is equivalent to a second engine when they do flight planning and risk assessments.)

In one case we had a guy who was cycling bungees on and off every couple of years to save the bucks for new bungees each time. :eek: Hard to believe, but true. He thought the bungees would spring back to their original tension after being pulled off the gear. You can't make that stuff up.
 
Unfortunately that sentiment hasn't translated to the real world. The weak area of the Comanche is the gear, hands down. We've had an inordinate number of gear collapses over the years, often from improper (or nonexistent) bungee maintenance, occasionally from bungling the emergency extension procedure, and for a while we were dealing with underwriters requesting, or in some cases demanding a $10,000 deductible for gear-related accidents on PA-24s and PA-30s. Luckily, we seem to be doing a bit better lately.

The 1,000 hour gear AD needs to be completed correctly. It's not an inconsequential task, and anything less than a thorough and professional job is the first hole in the swiss cheese "Reason" model that will lead to some kind of gear up landing, or gear collapse, down the road. We have seen many instances in which this AD was poorly or improperly done, or worse, pencil-whipped.

Do I think bungees are "bad?" No, they're a cost-effective but maintenance-heavy selection by Piper which kept the cost of manufacture down. That's one of the factors that lead to a guy like me being able to afford to own and operate a light twin. Can an astute owner manage the gear safely and effectively over the lifetime of the aircraft? Again, absolutely. But it requires attention and focus to this area, and not all owners are good at paying attention to what their airplanes need in their maintenance cycles.

There are some significant advantages to the Comanche's gear. It's all electric and the gear are mechanically linked. It's almost impossible for one gear to be down without all of the others. The transmission itself is a simple little gadget, pretty easy to maintain. Over time the conduits and wiring sometimes need work, but it's straightforward. A regularly flown Comanche with good gear AD work and bungees swapped out every few years will be fine.

Proper maintenance solves a lot of problems with "trouble" airplanes. I guess I'm spoiled, our local shop is big on Comanches and service a lot of them, including the 250 they own that I fly regularly.
 
Okay, could you show what a Bungee looks like for us mere mortals?
 
So which gear is easier to maintain: The one on the Deb or the Comanche?
 
Kind of a nasty weakness if you aren't savvy to it. I think the biggest Mooney weakness is the tanks. After awhile the seals go and they leak. Thankfully the squawk is obvious, but the fix is expensive.

I still love my Johnson bar gear. Not much to it, and not much to do but replace the doughnuts from time to time. So little to break I don't even have an emergency gear release. Not many aircraft can boast that.
 
Every airplane has its maintenance issues to deal with. It is just which bag of pain you want to deal with for what the plane is providing you relative to you mission.
 
I still love my Johnson bar gear. Not much to it, and not much to do but replace the doughnuts from time to time. So little to break I don't even have an emergency gear release. Not many aircraft can boast that.

Piper has it but with the flaps instead. I used it with the Archers I've flown.
 
Kind of a nasty weakness if you aren't savvy to it. I think the biggest Mooney weakness is the tanks. After awhile the seals go and they leak. Thankfully the squawk is obvious, but the fix is expensive.

Cherokees have the same type of sealed tanks. I think Comanches do too, but I could be wrong. I always hear tank complaints from Mooney folks, but the Pipers are just as problematic, I think.
 
Comanches have bladders. Keep them full, they'll love you long time. Not full, they tend to dry out and crack at the top, especially if parked outside in hot temps.
 
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