Missing STC Paperwork

[Mooney Fan]

I'm selling my Cherokee and its in prebuy. The mechanic just called asking if I had the STC paperwork? I bought the plane from a reputable business/broker and had a pre-buy done.

In my review of the logs and paperwork I saw the 337's and the log entries for the 9 STC's. Its just there isn't any STC paperwork. Ordered records from FAA and there is no STC paperwork in the files I received.

I guess it was my error in thinking the 337's were all that was needed. Now it sounds like it could be a bag of worms. The A&P is going to call Knots2U and see if my N number is in their files for the speed mods.

Can the 337's be all that's needed?

Not to thrilled with the shop who did my pre-buy to not have caught this when I bought the plane.

 

[Bell206]

Its just there isn't any STC paperwork.

What specific paperwork are you looking for? Permission letter, flight manual supplement, ICAs,....?

 

[Mooney Fan]

What specific paperwork are you looking for? Permission letter, flight manual supplement, ICAs,....?

The A&P said I need the paperwork with my N number that authorizes the STC to be installed on my aircraft. I have logbook and this 337

 

[Ventucky Red]

I'm selling my Cherokee and its in prebuy. The mechanic just called asking if I had the STC paperwork? I bought the plane from a reputable business/broker and had a pre-buy done.

In my review of the logs and paperwork I saw the 337's and the log entries for the 9 STC's. Its just there isn't any STC paperwork. Ordered records from FAA and there is no STC paperwork in the files I received.

I guess it was my error in thinking the 337's were all that was needed. Now it sounds like it could be a bag of worms. The A&P is going to call Knots2U and see if my N number is in their files for the speed mods.

Can the 337's be all that's needed?

Not to thrilled with the shop who did my pre-buy to not have caught this when I bought the plane.

They way it was explained to me once was the Form 337 is only records what was done to the aircraft. As for this replacing the STC paperwork, I am going to say no, but I will leave the definitive answer to our brain trust can give you a better picture.

My question is don't STC holders typically request your aircraft's tail number, make, model, and serial number when you purchase the STC and record it for their internal records and support purposes?

 

[Mooney Fan]

They way it was explained to me once was the Form 337 is only records what was done to the aircraft. As for this replacing the STC paperwork, I am going to say no, but I will leave the definitive answer to our brain trust can give you a better picture.

My question is don't STC holders typically request your aircraft's tail number, make, model, and serial number when you purchase the STC and record it for their internal records and support purposes?

Yes, but in case of the engine STC, the owner sold it and now someone else has it. The mech is going to try and reach the new STC owner and see if records transferred. The Knots2U STC's should be easier to replace.

 

[pfarber]

An STC is basically a license for ONE modification to ONE aircraft.

Also, an STC would include the parts installed (serialized, PNs etc) and any ICAs required to be followed.

So yes, you NEED the STC paperwork. It is the ONLY document that proves that you can legally install it and the process and limitations imposed by its installation.

You are correct in that a 337 simply informs the FAA that the original TC was modified.

Best case scenario the STC holder has the original STC issuance (usually by N number/serial number) and gives it to you.
Worst case is that they do not and now you have to remove the STC (somehow.... remember you don't have documentation) and file a NEW 337 that it was removed.

Your 'reputable seller' does not seem to be what they claim. A 337 is NOT permission to alter an aircraft from its type design, the STC (note the 'S' part) is.

 

[Bell206]

The A&P said I need the paperwork with my N number that authorizes the STC

That's the permission letter. If this is a legit install the STC holder should have a record of it under the aircraft serial number.

Don't quite follow what you are stating on the sold engine STC. Perhaps list all the STCs and what you need. And in general, STCs follow serial numbers and not owners.

 

[pfarber]

Perhaps list all the STCs and what you need. And in general, STCs follow serial numbers and not owners.

OP needs the entire STC package. Not just the cover letter. And since he is not the purchaser of the STCs, the STC holder is not required to provide OP anything, as he didn't purchase the STC.

Since the ownership of the plane has changed hands, with the new owner having NO documentation that the STC is legally allowed to be installed on that aircraft SN by the STC owner, the aircraft is (has been) unairworthy as there is no proof that the STC holder permitted the STC to be installed.

The 337 says it was installed. But there is no way to know if there are ICAs that need to be followed nor are there any documents regarding maintenance, servicing etc (if there were part of the original STC).

Best case: the STC holder is generous and provides the third party a copy of the original STC package.
Worst case: the STC holder will only deal with the original owner and OP is up a creek.

This is a hilarious example of IAs and the annual inspection not living up to its requirements. How can an IA verify the STC was properly installed (aka is in compliance with its type certificate) if there is no documentation? Read the 337 posted... installed IAW documentation 'X' yet there is no X to be IAW.

 

[Doc Holliday]

OP needs the entire STC package. Not just the cover letter. And since he is not the purchaser of the STCs, the STC holder is not required to provide OP anything, as he didn't purchase the STC.

As previously mentioned, STC holders typically will support new owners with regards to paperwork. The STC includes the aircraft registration and serial number.

I’ve yet to see an STC that states it is not valid when a person sells the aircraft.

Since the ownership of the plane has changed hands, with the new owner having NO documentation that the STC is legally allowed to be installed on that aircraft SN by the STC owner, the aircraft is (has been) unairworthy as there is no proof that the STC holder permitted the STC to be installed.

No. The 337 filed with OKC aircraft records shows the STC was installed and the pertinent installation instructions. That 337 is signed by an A&P and a A&P/IA (typically).

Had these individuals filed the paperwork attesting they installed the STC per what was written and they didn’t have the paperwork, that’s fraud. And that carries heavy implications up to and including emergency revocation of all certificates.

The airplane is not unairworthy in the way you described.

The 337 says it was installed. But there is no way to know if there are ICAs that need to be followed nor are there any documents regarding maintenance, servicing etc (if there were part of the original STC).

The owner is responsible for that paperwork. Typically that paperwork is easily acccesable online or by calling the STC holder.

Best case: the STC holder is generous and provides the third party a copy of the original STC package.
Worst case: the STC holder will only deal with the original owner and OP is up a creek.

Rarely the case the STC holder will not deal with the present owner. The STC holder is more concerned with the registration number and aircraft serial number. Again, I’ve never seen an STC that restricts the document to the original purchaser only.

This is a hilarious example of IAs and the annual inspection not living up to its requirements. How can an IA verify the STC was properly installed (aka is in compliance with its type certificate) if there is no documentation?

He can call the STC holder if there is a question and the owner hasn’t provided the documentation. He has the 337 that has been previously signed and approved.

Read the 337 posted... installed IAW documentation 'X' yet there is no X to be IAW.

I don’t see a problem with the way that 337 was filled out.

Are you implying the STC paperwork must be filed with the 337?

Have you ever actually installed an STC and filled out the paperwork (337) ?

 

[Bell206]

OP needs the entire STC package. Not just the cover letter. And since he is not the purchaser of the STCs, the STC holder is not required to provide OP anything,

Not really. It's not a cover letter. The permission letter is the only regulatory document that allows the STC to be installed. And as I stated the STC tracks to the aircraft serial number and not the owner or N number.

 

[pfarber]

The airplane is not unairworthy in the way you described.

The current owner does NOT have the STC with the plane serial number. That alone means that the STC cannot be proven to be allowed on this AC. The 337 is not an approval, its a notification.

How can the current owner inspect and maintain an STC unless they have the proper documentation? How does the owner know that the ICAs (if any) are being followed?

How can an IA determine that the airplane conforms to the type certificates unless they have documentation?

The 337 is MEANINGLESS wrt the INSTALLATION of the STC. It only states that the STC has been applied. REad the 337, it says installed IAW 'X'. Ok, show me 'X'. Show me that the STC has permission to be installed on this airframe (only the STC holder can grant that).

It suckes that OP bought an airplane without proof the STCs are legally allowed to be there.
With any luck the STC holder will coperate (they have no legal requirement to).

I'm not going to discuss the 337 anymore as its not germain to the root issues:

OP has no documentation that the STC holder allowed the STC to be applied to the AC SN. Maybe he bought some parts and manuals at a flea market or estate sale. Buying the STC does not confer the right to modify the TC.

OP has no indication that the ICAs (it any) are being followed. What if a required placard fell off???

At annual, an IA has no method to determine that the AC complies with its TC (aka one of the major reasons to do an annual). This should have been caught by a compentant IA at the first post-STC install annual.

It hilarious that anyone is even debating these issues. This is black letter law... IA 101 stuff.

 

[pfarber]

Not really. It's not a cover letter. The permission letter is the only regulatory document that allows the STC to be installed. And as I stated the STC tracks to the aircraft serial number and not the owner or N number.

I said that the STC can only be applied to ONE airframe by SN. was I not clear? I said it like 3 time so far.

Ownership only possibly matters becuase the STC holder has no legal requirement to give information to a 3rd party. Bob installs STC 123 on AC SN 890. Bob loses the paperwork. Bob sells to AC SN 890 Mary. Mary's AnP asks for the STC paperwork. Mary doesn't have it becuase Bob didn't give it to her. Mary requests the FAA send her all the documents for AC SN 890, but none are found.
Mary calls the holder of STC 123 and ask for a copy of the STC issued to AC SN 890. STC holder says 'you did not buy the STC from us, we cannot comply with your request'.

That is my scenario regarding ownership. The TC has no legal requirement to provide anything to a 3rd party.
Does that clear it up???

OP should 100% call the STC holder and ask if they can get the ENTIRE STC package, or AT LEAST just the cover letter showing the STC # and the SN of the AC it was issued to.

As of right now, the aircraft is unairworthy due to illegal modifications. The owner has NO PROOF the STC holder issued the STC to that AC SN.


And the coupe de gras: FAR 21.120:

§ 21.120 Responsibility of supplemental type certificate holders to provide written permission for alterations.​

A supplemental type certificate holder who allows a person to use the supplemental type certificate to alter an aircraft, aircraft engine, or propeller must provide that person with written permission acceptable to the FAA.

OP did NOT alter the AC. A previous owner did.

Are we done here? I think we are. OP MUST have written permission. They don't.

 

[Doc Holliday]

The current owner does NOT have the STC with the plane serial number. That alone means that the STC cannot be proven to be allowed on this AC. The 337 is not an approval, its a notification.

Not an approval? Then why does block 7 state “Approval for Return to Service”?

How can an IA determine that the airplane conforms to the type certificates unless they have documentation?

How do you know the IA didn’t have access to the documentation? Again, this stuff is readily assessable if the owner didn’t provide it.

The 337 is MEANINGLESS wrt the INSTALLATION of the STC. It only states that the STC has been applied. REad the 337, it says installed IAW 'X'. Ok, show me 'X'. Show me that the STC has permission to be installed on this airframe (only the STC holder can grant that).

Ok, it’s now readily apparent you have NEVER done an STC or the FAA Form 337. Guess A&P school didn’t cover that.

It suckes that OP bought an airplane without proof the STCs are legally allowed to be there.
With any luck the STC holder will coperate (they have no legal requirement to).

The previous owner is responsible to transfer the maintenance paperwork to the new owner.

Again, I’ve never seen an STC holder refuse to work with an aircraft owner. The STC holder is more concerned with the aircraft serial number.

I'm not going to discuss the 337 anymore as its not germain to the root issues:

Because you clearly don’t understand nor have you ever accomplished one.

OP has no documentation that the STC holder allowed the STC to be applied to the AC SN. Maybe he bought some parts and manuals at a flea market or estate sale.

Speculation with no basis in fact.

Buying the STC does not confer the right to modify the TC.

The STC doesn’t become part of the aircraft until a return to service document (FAA Form 337) is filled out and submitted to (a) the owner and (b) the FAA.

OP has no indication that the ICAs (it any) are being followed. What if a required placard fell off???

At annual, an IA has no method to determine that the AC complies with its TC (aka one of the major reasons to do an annual). This should have been caught by a compentant IA at the first post-STC install annual.

Again, you’re making wild assumptions with no basis in fact.

It hilarious that anyone is even debating these issues. This is black letter law... IA 101 stuff.

You’re not an IA, that’s evident. And you clearly don’t understand the topic.

 

[Doc Holliday]

I said that the STC can only be applied to ONE airframe by SN. was I not clear? I said it like 3 time so far.

Ownership only possibly matters becuase the STC holder has no legal requirement to give information to a 3rd party. Bob installs STC 123 on AC SN 890. Bob loses the paperwork. Bob sells to AC SN 890 Mary. Mary's AnP asks for the STC paperwork. Mary doesn't have it becuase Bob didn't give it to her. Mary requests the FAA send her all the documents for AC SN 890, but none are found.
Mary calls the holder of STC 123 and ask for a copy of the STC issued to AC SN 890. STC holder says 'you did not buy the STC from us, we cannot comply with your request'.

Now you are implying no FAA Form 337 was filled.

In the OP, he clearly showed the back of the 337 which was properly filled out. So in your scenario Mary calls the STC holder, tells them her problem and provides the 337 for them to see. The 337 holder verifies their STC was indeed assigned to the aircraft on the 337 and happily sends her the documents requested.

Happens often.

That is my scenario regarding ownership. The TC has no legal requirement to provide anything to a 3rd party.
Does that clear it up???

See above.

OP should 100% call the STC holder and ask if they can get the ENTIRE STC package, or AT LEAST just the cover letter showing the STC # and the SN of the AC it was issued to.

As of right now, the aircraft is unairworthy due to illegal modifications. The owner has NO PROOF the STC holder issued the STC to that AC SN.

Nope. Not even close. In your example you claim no 337 was filled when the OP does have a 337. Two entirely different situations.

Are we done here? I think we are. OP MUST have written permission. They don't.

Again, with the 337 all the OP needs to do is contact the STC holder. Problem solved.

 

[Bell206]

I said that the STC can only be applied to ONE airframe by SN. was I not clear?

No. You stated the following below. All I can say again is stick to bashing CFIs as you are clueless on the mx side.

OP needs the entire STC package. Not just the cover letter. And since he is not the purchaser of the STCs, the STC holder is not required to provide OP anything, as he didn't purchase the STC.

 

[bonefishpete]

Find another buyer. What of missing log books. Scrap the plane?
These planes are getting 50-60 years old. Are people looking at multiple log books back to Moses for discrepancies and missing data?

 

[Doc Holliday]

I'm selling my Cherokee and its in prebuy. The mechanic just called asking if I had the STC paperwork? I bought the plane from a reputable business/broker and had a pre-buy done.

In my review of the logs and paperwork I saw the 337's and the log entries for the 9 STC's. Its just there isn't any STC paperwork. Ordered records from FAA and there is no STC paperwork in the files I received.

I guess it was my error in thinking the 337's were all that was needed. Now it sounds like it could be a bag of worms. The A&P is going to call Knots2U and see if my N number is in their files for the speed mods.

Can the 337's be all that's needed?

Not to thrilled with the shop who did my pre-buy to not have caught this when I bought the plane.

The Form 337 is filed with the FAA and you have a copy for your records. The STC paperwork is not filed with the FAA so that’s why it’s not there. The previous owner should have transferred it with the logs to you when you bought it.

The good news is Knots2U will more than likely provide it since it’s serial number issued.

Place it with your aircraft logs and when you sell make sure the new owner receives it.

 

[Dave Palacios]

I'm selling my Cherokee and its in prebuy. The mechanic just called asking if I had the STC paperwork? I bought the plane from a reputable business/broker and had a pre-buy done.

In my review of the logs and paperwork I saw the 337's and the log entries for the 9 STC's. Its just there isn't any STC paperwork. Ordered records from FAA and there is no STC paperwork in the files I received.

I guess it was my error in thinking the 337's were all that was needed. Now it sounds like it could be a bag of worms. The A&P is going to call Knots2U and see if my N number is in their files for the speed mods.

Can the 337's be all that's needed?

Not to thrilled with the shop who did my pre-buy to not have caught this when I bought the plane.

Yes if you know the stc holder, or, hire an ia to inspect it for compliance as "installed by persons unknown". The disposition of the 337, is supposed be done by the installer (after an ia inspects for compliance) one copy to oak city, one copy to the aircraft owner and it might be good idea for the installer to keep a copy as well. Sadly not all mechanics follow all the regs.

 

[Salty]

If the Faa gave a f about it, it would be required as part of the 337 submission and on the cd. They don’t. They could care less about the stc owners “permission” to install. The only reason that is even a thing is for stc owners to track for profit or support reasons. Otherwise, they could care less also.

 

[Mooney Fan]

The Form 337 is filed with the FAA and you have a copy for your records. The STC paperwork is not filed with the FAA so that’s why it’s not there. The previous owner should have transferred it with the logs to you when you bought it.

The good news is Knots2U will more than likely provide it since it’s serial number issued.

Place it with your aircraft logs and when you sell make sure the new owner receives it.

The AMR&D engine STC SA-413CH previous owner died. It transferred to another company and the IA has a contact number for them. Plans to try and reach them today. He said the exact STC number is still available today so at worst, I could pay $700 for another approval.

But at a minimum I plan to contact the seller and shop who did the prebuy and voice my dissatisfaction. Ultimately it’s all on me and I know that ship has sailed. But I paid for a service I did not receive. I ordered the prebuy to avoid situations just like this.

And as many have said, these mods were done 25 years ago with annuals having never caught it. Maybe the paperwork was there but lost just before I bought it. And so it goes.

 

[Doc Holliday]

The AMR&D engine STC SA-413CH previous owner died. It transferred to another company and the IA has a contact number for them. Plans to try and reach them today. He said the exact STC number is still available today so at worst, I could pay $700 for another approval.

But at a minimum I plan to contact the seller and shop who did the prebuy and voice my dissatisfaction. Ultimately it’s all on me and I know that ship has sailed. But I paid for a service I did not receive. I ordered the prebuy to avoid situations just like this.

And as many have said, these mods were done 25 years ago with annuals having never caught it. Maybe the paperwork was there but lost just before I bought it. And so it goes.

Without pointing fingers, the owner is responsible for the maintenance records and is responsible to transfer the records during the sale.

As far as getting your STC information it shouldn’t cost you as you do have proof it was installed by the previous owner via Form 337.

In my dealings with similar situations I have found the STC holders to be accommodating. You’ll get this straightened up and back on course.

Best of luck with it.

 

[Tools]

Is it not possible to try to get a field approval for the mods? Then life goes on…

Isn’t that what a STC is all about, allowing you to buy something someone else has gone through all the hoops of approving so you don’t?

See this a lot with jump plane doors.

 

[bnt83]

I see no regulatory requirement that includes filing the STC Letter of Authorization (usually a one-time licensing agreement for Make Model Serial Number airplane), the STC certificate, Master Data/Document Lists, AFMS/ICA etc with the owner's 337 or to OKC.

That said, I attach at least the LOA, STC certificate, and MDL to all copies of the 337 and send to OKC.

A bunch of these LOAs for small piston aircraft are *print from holder's website and fill in the blanks with your information* in an uncontrolled manner...

Transport aircraft where just the STC data is $$$$ is another story.

I'm sure there are tons of older engine swap STCs completed on aircraft long ago where the STC holder isn't even alive anymore, and the documentation is poor at best.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Is it not possible to try to get a field approval for the mods? Then life goes on…

Isn’t that what a STC is all about, allowing you to buy something someone else has gone through all the hoops of approving so you don’t?

See this a lot with jump plane doors.

The FAA will not do a field approval on something a STC already covers.

In the OP's situation since these are active STC's it's just a matter of doing some discovery on the paperwork, nothing more.

 

[Bell206]

The AMR&D engine STC SA-413CH previous owner died.

If by "owner" you mean the STC holder then a quick check of the current STC database will give you the current holder, contact information, it's current status and which FAA office oversees that STC.

But keep in mind the permission letter requirement only came out in 2006 so not all STC data packages may have contained one. If the current holder does not respond to your request contact the FAA office for additional assistance.

And one note on 337s. That is a separate process from the STC installation so don't consider both to be the same. For example, not all STCs are considered a major alteration so there would be no requirement to file a 337.

Ultimately it’s all on me and I know that ship has sailed. But I paid for a service I did not receive. I ordered the prebuy to avoid situations just like this.

Unfortunately that is the problem with pre buys, there is no standard practice to perform them. So unless you specified a conformity check or similar paperwork review I would not expect a specific STC letter check to have been done.

They could care less about the stc owners “permission” to install.

Actually the letter is regulatory since 2006 in 91.403(d).

 

[bonefishpete]

If by "owner" you mean the STC holder then a quick check of the current STC database will give you the current holder, contact information, it's current status and which FAA office oversees that STC.

But keep in mind the permission letter requirement only came out in 2006 so not all STC data packages may have contained one. If the current holder does not respond to your request contact the FAA office for additional assistance.

And one note on 337s. That is a separate process from the STC installation so don't consider both to be the same. For example, not all STCs are considered a major alteration so there would be no requirement to file a 337.


Unfortunately that is the problem with pre buys, there is no standard practice to perform them. So unless you specified a conformity check or similar paperwork review I would not expect a specific STC letter check to have been done.


Actually the letter is regulatory since 2006 in 91.403(d).

That clears up a lot.

 

[Mooney Fan]

Some good news. Knots2U is sending over paperwork for 3 of their STC’s. At least we know they were legal. Still waiting to hear on the others.

Edit- Just found out the rest of the STC copies are on the way. Thanks everyone for your insight.

 

[Half Fast]

Hmmmm...... Interesting.

Consider the actual wording of the regs quoted above.

From 91.403,

A person must not alter an aircraft based on a supplemental type certificate unless the owner or operator of the aircraft is the holder of the supplemental type certificate, or has written permission from the holder.​

From 21.120,

A supplemental type certificate holder who allows a person to use the supplemental type certificate to alter an aircraft, aircraft engine, or propeller must provide that person with written permission acceptable to the FAA.​

It appears to me that, by strict reading of the regulation, the limitations only address the person who does the alteration, not all subsequent aircraft owners. For an A&P to perform an alteration legally, the aircraft owner must have written permission and the STC holder must provide it. Both of these regs address permission to perform an action ("alter"), and the persons who are constrained by the regs are the A&P doing the work and the STC holder.

I don't see any requirement here for the aircraft owner to maintain the permission letter forever, nor to file it with the FAA. In fact, based on the wording of the regs, it could be argued that he only needs to retain it long enough for the A&P to complete the alteration. It might behoove the A&P to retain a copy of it, since he's the one who is forbidden from performing an alteration without permission.

Have there been any cases yet where the FAA enforced these regs, or where FAA legal might have provided an interpretation?

 

[Mikey52]

And the current owner and IA can get the continuous inspection items, if any, from the current stc holder.

 

[Bell206]

I don't see any requirement here for the aircraft owner to maintain the permission letter forever, nor to file it with the FAA.

Not exactly. The context behind those rules is to protect the approved data of the STC holder. After the 2006 release of those rules that protection required the holder to issue written permission and the owner to obtain written permission to use that approved data.

Prior to 2006, that permission was implied but was routinely ignored with the only recourse by the holder via certain IP laws or civil action. So the current rules provide a regulatory enforcement path for the use of that protected data.

And since the aircraft is the item altered per that data the only method to confirm compliance is for the permission letter to follow the aircraft and not the person. Which to note the FAA definition of "person" is all encompassing and not a singular reference.

As to interpretation or enforcement the one I can recall is with an STC installing a new version of Jacobs engine on older WACO aircraft. WACO Inc produces new YMF-5s but with the newer Jacobs. An owner of an older variant wanted to install the same engine but didn't want to pay the STC cost so he installed it under his own approved data.

Long story short, since this owner did not use WACOs STC data the FAA determined there was no violation of 91.403. The unauthorized use approved alteration data was a big thing within the industry for many years. So while it may seem to be a minor paperwork issue in general, to a STC holder it was a form of justice considering some had mega money invested in the STCs development.

 

[WDD]

Find another buyer. What of missing log books. Scrap the plane?
These planes are getting 50-60 years old. Are people looking at multiple log books back to Moses for discrepancies and missing data?

I don't see any requirement here for the aircraft owner to maintain the permission letter forever, nor to file it with the FAA. In fact, based on the wording of the regs, it could be argued that he only needs to retain it long enough for the A&P to complete the alteration.

Nice points.

If the work was done and signed off on by the A&P documenting that he/she confirmed he/she had the STC at time of work, it therefore goes that the STC was legitimate, paid for, permission given.

So.... the attestation of the A&P is valid for other things but not for this?

 

[Bell206]

So.... the attestation of the A&P is valid for other things but not for this?

Not since 2006. Many APIAs installed alterations under bootlegged data as it did not fall under their purview prior to 2006. They only needed approved data to fulfill their requirement. Same as Duplicate 337s were all the rage prior to 2002. Now only the STC holder can attest that the permission to use that approved data was granted.

 

[Mooney Fan]

Not since 2006. Many APIAs installed alterations under bootlegged data as it did not fall under their purview prior to 2006. They only needed approved data to fulfill their requirement. Same as Duplicate 337s were all the rage prior to 2002. Now only the STC holder can attest that the permission to use that approved data was granted.

Am I right in thinking then that since these STC's I have on the plane which were installed in 2000 and 2004 do not require copies of the STC? I just ordered a new Challenger Air Filter just so I could get the STC paperwork. I didn't have all the information that was needed to have Challenger send me a replacement copy.

 

[Bell206]

Am I right in thinking then that since these STC's I have on the plane which were installed in 2000 and 2004 do not require copies of the STC?

What specific document copies are you inquiring about, ie., STC certificate, ICAs, permission letter, etc? For example, if it is the STC certificate copy those can be printed from the FAA DRS website.

 

[Mooney Fan]

What specific document copies are you inquiring about, ie., STC certificate, ICAs, permission letter, etc? For example, if it is the STC certificate copy those can be printed from the FAA DRS website.

The permission for the part to be installed on my specific aircraft seems to be the IA’s main concern

 

[WDD]

So……. Never buy a plane with missing log books?

 

[Bell206]

The permission for the part to be installed on my specific aircraft seems to be the IA’s main concern

Okay. But keep in mind there might be other documents that must be included with your maintenance records. For example, looking at the STC certificate for your air filter it states as a “Condition and Limitation” of the STC a copy of that certificate must also be kept.

Now provided this air filter was properly bought and installed prior to 2006, the STC holder is usually required to provide those documents to the buyer. What information were you missing that prevented Challenger from sending you copies vs having to purchase a new filter?

So……. Never buy a plane with missing log books?

Not at all. Just be educated on what maintenance records the FAA requires to be retained (91.417) vs those they don’t require to be retained. Even with issues like the Piper spar AD, there are methods to research aircraft histories without 70 years of logbooks on hand.

 

[WDD]

So….. never buy an airplane without log books, without books with paperwork?

 

[Mooney Fan]

Okay. But keep in mind there might be other documents that must be included with your maintenance records. For example, looking at the STC certificate for your air filter it states as a “Condition and Limitation” of the STC a copy of that certificate must also be kept.

Which is why I started over with a new purchase

Now provided this air filter was properly bought and installed prior to 2006, the STC holder is usually required to provide those documents to the buyer. What information were you missing that prevented Challenger from sending you copies vs having to purchase a new filter?

Information they require on the STC submittal form that I don’t have. Such as purchase date. Where the purchase was made. Batch number. Invoice number etc.

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

I realize in this case the OP is the seller. I was a buyer.

The plane I was buying had missing STC documentation. Price was discounted as a result, because no buyer wanted to get into that kind of unknown. It was not advertised as such and a prior buyer walked away when they found out.

During the prebuy I wanted assurance that I could get the STCs and logbooks in order. It involved getting the plane flown to the STC holder for inspection; I paid for the ferry flight and inspection. Seller was happy someone took a risk in investing time and money (as was I). I simply guaranteed that the seller wouldn’t pull the plug on me after everything was going to be straightened out by me; and if it wasn’t, seller had to pay to get it flown back.

I met the STC holder in person and learned a lot. And my logs and maintenance file were updated and buttoned up for whenever I sell, so I built equity on Day 1.

In the end, the only STC I couldn’t easily resolve were the stall fences. Had no idea whose they were. I had them removed (which was fine anyway for more elevator authority when slipping at ultra low speeds, at least in my head).

Don’t be afraid of a little paperwork in the sale/purchase process, as long as you can find an “out” if need be.

My 2 cents