missed approach without holding pattern?

Per the AIM Section 5-3-8c, if you don't get further instructions before arriving at the fix, you enter a standard holding pattern at the fix on your arrival course.
 
I think it a good idea to have a game plan ready before beginning an approach when a missed approach is likely.
Agreed -- the airplane should never get anywhere your brain hasn't already been at least five minutes earlier. And the missed should be still be considered even if you don't think it's likely -- things can happen.

IME, aircraft only enter the missed approach hold for training purposes.
That's more true now than it was 30-40 years ago, but I suspect that in some parts of the country where radar coverage is skimpy or less it still happens for real. In any event, it's a valid question on an IR practical test and fair game on an IPC, so every pilot with instrument privileges should know the correct answer.
 
Good point, Ron. The missed, in our part of the country, is really more for training than anything else. But always remember that when you go missed, you will be talking to ATC. If they ask you to say intentions, and you need time to think and have the fuel for thinking time (as you should), go do the hold!
 
But always remember that when you go missed, you will be talking to ATC.
Might be more accurate to say you should be talking to ATC -- or maybe just "hope you will." Many a slip 'twixt cup and lip, and once in a great while you get to the MAH fix before you get communication going again on a missed from an approach to a nontowered airport.
 
Might be more accurate to say you should be talking to ATC -- or maybe just "hope you will." Many a slip 'twixt cup and lip, and once in a great while you get to the MAH fix before you get communication going again on a missed from an approach to a nontowered airport.

Yes, Sir. Excellent point. We do have good radio coverage on much of the Mid-Atlantic; but my answer would definitely have warranted a follow-up from the DPE!

Lost comm is important. I've encountered it, and it wasn't fun!
 
All you have to realize is that FESIK is part of the enroute system. 5000 MEA going north and 4000 going south to OAK on the V6. No big deal if you know.

If a pilot doesn't know where you're going next by the time he gets to FESIK, that it's unlikely he can be helped.
 
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You will be getting vectors long before you have to worry about what your game plan is at FESIK.
 
You will be getting vectors long before you have to worry about what your game plan is at FESIK.
Change "will" to "should" and I'll buy that. There are no guarantees on things like this. That's why the question should be asked if the OP doesn't know the answer, even if the chances of getting to that point are small.
 
Well, considering there is no published route from FESIK to get you back onto the approach segment, they HAVE to.
 
Well, considering there is no published route from FESIK to get you back onto the approach segment, they HAVE to.
Why do they "have to"? What guarantees they won't be so busy they can't talk to you until you get there and then must, lacking a further clearance when reaching your clearance limit, be forced to hold?
 
Well, considering there is no published route from FESIK to get you back onto the approach segment, they HAVE to.

With FESIK and four IAFs all airway fixes, how can there not be a published route from FESIK back on to the approach?

FESIK.V6.PITTS.V108.LODDI.V585.ORANG.V28.HAIRE
 
FESIK is your clearance limit. If you haven't received a clearance prior to arriving at FESIK, you hold on your inbound course as cap'n Ron stated.

What if you determine you're really lost comm? Proceed to your alternate. (The reason why we have to file for alternates) if you break out in the clear and you can land at the closest, suitable airport VFR, do so and call ATC ASAP once on the ground.

Tip: put your planned route to your alternate in "remarks" on your FP.
 
FESIK is your clearance limit. If you haven't received a clearance prior to arriving at FESIK, you hold on your inbound course as cap'n Ron stated.

This is what I mean. You cannot proceed on any route segment after FESIK to get you back on the approach. I worded it wrong. For instance on the ILS 25R into LVK you are routed right to TRACY which is an IAF. If you are lost comms you will proceed there hold till your EFC, and shoot the approach as expected if not already cleared.
 
What if you determine you're really lost comm? Proceed to your alternate. (The reason why we have to file for alternates)
That's not why we have to file alternates. The reason for that is the FAA wants to force idiots to carry more fuel than they would if they weren't forced to carry enough to have reasonable minimum safety margins. There is nothing in 91.185 even suggesting, no less requiring, that one go to one's filed alternate after missing at their destination in a lost comm situation. In that situation, you've flown past the limit of the regulations, and you do whatever you think best to end the flight safely.

ATC doesn't even get your alternate on their strip, so they'd have to do some digging just to find out what it is, and even then, you may have selected it not because it was necessarily where you wanted to go if you missed at your destination, but because it was the first airport which met the legal requirements for being selected. For example, if you have a non-WAAS GPS, you might want to divert to a closer airport with better weather that has only a GPS approach, but couldn't file it because you can't use a GPS approach for your alternate if you don't have a c146 WAAS "sole source" GPS.

if you break out in the clear and you can land at the closest, suitable airport VFR, do so and call ATC ASAP once on the ground.
Not just "can," but "shall" do so.

Tip: put your planned route to your alternate in "remarks" on your FP.
In what FAA publication did you find that idea? And what controller is going to care what you used for your routing to your filed alternate?
 
This is what I mean. You cannot proceed on any route segment after FESIK to get you back on the approach. I worded it wrong. For instance on the ILS 25R into LVK you are routed right to TRACY which is an IAF. If you are lost comms you will proceed there hold till your EFC, and shoot the approach as expected if not already cleared.
If you're speaking of what you do if LVK is your destination and you lose comm on your way there, I agree. If you're speaking of what you do if you lose comm and then miss at your destination, I do not -- in that situation, you've gone beyond what it says in 91.185(c) and you're entirely on your own to figure out what to do next.
 
This is what I mean. You cannot proceed on any route segment after FESIK to get you back on the approach. I worded it wrong. For instance on the ILS 25R into LVK you are routed right to TRACY which is an IAF. If you are lost comms you will proceed there hold till your EFC, and shoot the approach as expected if not already cleared.

Hold at the missed approach holding fix until your EFC?
 
That's not why we have to file alternates. The reason for that is the FAA wants to force idiots to carry more fuel than they would if they weren't forced to carry enough to have reasonable minimum safety margins. There is nothing in 91.185 even suggesting, no less requiring, that one go to one's filed alternate after missing at their destination in a lost comm situation. In that situation, you've flown past the limit of the regulations, and you do whatever you think best to end the flight safely.

ATC doesn't even get your alternate on their strip, so they'd have to do some digging just to find out what it is, and even then, you may have selected it not because it was necessarily where you wanted to go if you missed at your destination, but because it was the first airport which met the legal requirements for being selected. For example, if you have a non-WAAS GPS, you might want to divert to a closer airport with better weather that has only a GPS approach, but couldn't file it because you can't use a GPS approach for your alternate if you don't have a c146 WAAS "sole source" GPS.

Not just "can," but "shall" do so.

In what FAA publication did you find that idea? And what controller is going to care what you used for your routing to your filed alternate?

Ron,

Absolutely 100%, the reason for filing an alternate is lost comm!!

And yes, the controller couldn't see your alternate in the old days of the strips BUT they did see the "remarks"!! If you put your alternate and route in the remarks, they saw it. Pretty slick, huh??

I ALWAYS put my alternate route in remarks and I used to have controllers comment about it helping them when the Wx was bad. (old days)

If you are lost comm and you missed at your destination, the controller EXPECTS you to proceed to your alternate. By having your route in "remarks", they could see where you were going without having to dig for it .

This is all moot now because they can pull up anything and everything about your FP!! (still good practice to put your alt roue in remarks, though)

And, when I said "can", I meant land safety. You took it out of context. You're expected to land ASAP.

Hey, but don't believe me, call your local ARTCC and ask them. They're very nice and they don't bite.

Are you with Washington Center?? Here's their number: 703-779-3743
 
Absolutely 100%, the reason for filing an alternate is lost comm!!
No, it's not. Read 91.185. Read the AIM. Read 7110.65. The one and only reason the FAA requires filing an alternate is to force you to carry a reasonably safe amount of fuel for contingencies.
 
No, it's not. Read 91.185. Read the AIM. Read 7110.65. The one and only reason the FAA requires filing an alternate is to force you to carry a reasonably safe amount of fuel for contingencies.

Ron, call the number I posted and ask the sup on the desk.
 
Absolutely 100%, the reason for filing an alternate is lost comm!!
I would point out that it's never been mentioned in the lost comm rule. If you miss an approach due to weather, it probably is because you're a victim of a bum forecast. If you haven't lost comm, then you can work out a routing to an alternate which reflects real time conditions. If you happen to be without comms, though, why would you want to be locked into a routing based on unreliable forecasted conditions? :confused:

Nevertheless, putting a routing in 'Remarks' is a clever way to handcuff oneself to the deck of a sinking alternate. Kinda wish I'd have thought of it. :D

dtuuri
 
Ron, call the number I posted and ask the sup on the desk.
What a Center sup says isn't relevant on this question. You call the FAA Flight Standards Procedures Branch (AFS-420) or AFS-820 (which writes Part 91 flight rules) and ask them about the purpose of designating an alternate.
 
What a Center sup says isn't relevant on this question. You call the FAA Flight Standards Procedures Branch (AFS-420) or AFS-820 (which writes Part 91 flight rules) and ask them about the purpose of designating an alternate.

Ron, are you saying a controller supervisor wouldn't know the answer?? lol

Okay. Whatever..

I DID call DEN ARTCC just a few minutes ago and he verified what I have known for many years.

If you're lost comm and you miss, they want (and expect) you to go to your alternate. Lost comm is all about expectations. All lost comm procedures are based on what they EXPECT you to do. If you miss, they EXPECT you to proceed to your alternate.
 
Absolutely 100%, the reason for filing an alternate is lost comm!!

What do you base that on? If lost comm is the reason for filing an alternate why isn't "alternate" mentioned in FAR 91.185?

And yes, the controller couldn't see your alternate in the old days of the strips BUT they did see the "remarks"!! If you put your alternate and route in the remarks, they saw it. Pretty slick, huh??

I ALWAYS put my alternate route in remarks and I used to have controllers comment about it helping them when the Wx was bad. (old days)

If you are lost comm and you missed at your destination, the controller EXPECTS you to proceed to your alternate. By having your route in "remarks", they could see where you were going without having to dig for it .

This is all moot now because they can pull up anything and everything about your FP!! (still good practice to put your alt roue in remarks, though)

And, when I said "can", I meant land safety. You took it out of context. You're expected to land ASAP.

Hey, but don't believe me, call your local ARTCC and ask them. They're very nice and they don't bite.

Are you with Washington Center?? Here's their number: 703-779-3743
Bull. I've got 28 years in ATC, nine of that at ZAU ARTCC. I wouldn't even bother looking for the filed alternate of an aircraft with lost comm, and I doubt any other controller I've known would. It'd be a waste of time, I'm not going to base separation on it.
 
Ron, are you saying a controller supervisor wouldn't know the answer?? lol

Okay. Whatever..

I DID call DEN ARTCC just a few minutes ago and he verified what I have known for many years.

If you're lost comm and you miss, they want (and expect) you to go to your alternate. Lost comm is all about expectations. All lost comm procedures are based on what they EXPECT you to do. If you miss, they EXPECT you to proceed to your alternate.
That may be what some controllers think, but it's not what Flight Standards puts out to pilots and it's not written anywhere in any pilot-directed document. And it's definitely not why the FAA wrote the regs on alternates and fuel requirements.

More than that, it's a bad idea for controllers to expect pilots to do that. The data on which the alternate choice was made can be up to 12 hours old at the time the pilot goes missed. Thus, the weather at your filed alternate may be radically different when it actually happens than when you made that choice, not to mention there may be much better weather somewhere closer. In addition, the constraints on alternate selection mean that you may have been forced to choose someplace farther away and potentially less suitable for the equipment you have on board. Put it all together, and the pilot's best choice in such a situation is more likely than not going to somewhere other than the filed alternate.

For a controller to suggest that a pilot should be in any way be locked into or even "expected" to go to the filed alternate in event of a lost comm/missed at destination is unwise and imprudent, and to expect the pilot to go there in that situation is short-sighted and unjustified by the regulations and guidance to pilots.
 
That may be what some controllers think, but it's not what Flight Standards puts out to pilots and it's not written anywhere in any pilot-directed document. And it's definitely not why the FAA wrote the regs on alternates and fuel requirements.

More than that, it's a bad idea for controllers to expect pilots to do that. The data on which the alternate choice was made can be up to 12 hours old at the time the pilot goes missed. Thus, the weather at your filed alternate may be radically different when it actually happens than when you made that choice, not to mention there may be much better weather somewhere closer. In addition, the constraints on alternate selection mean that you may have been forced to choose someplace farther away and potentially less suitable for the equipment you have on board. Put it all together, and the pilot's best choice in such a situation is more likely than not going to somewhere other than the filed alternate.

For a controller to suggest that a pilot should be in any way be locked into or even "expected" to go to the filed alternate in event of a lost comm/missed at destination is unwise and imprudent, and to expect the pilot to go there in that situation is short-sighted and unjustified by the regulations and guidance
to pilots.

I seriously don't believe what I'm reading!! When the person sitting in front of the screen, watching you, is telling you that if miss at your destination (lost comm) and he's EXPECTING you to proceed to your alternate, that's about as authentic as it gets.

Please, do yourself a favor and call ARTCC. I gave you the number. The person on the other end will know more about procedures and regs then you will ever know..
 
No reason to get excited about it. If they give you a number to call, just give them Levy's number to call. No harm, no foul.

I seriously don't believe what I'm reading!! When the person sitting in front of the screen, watching you, is telling you that if miss at your destination (lost comm) and he's EXPECTING you to proceed to your alternate, that's about as authentic as it gets.

Please, do yourself a favor and call ARTCC. I gave you the number. The person on the other end will know more about procedures and regs then you will ever know..
 
When the person sitting in front of the screen, watching you, is telling you that if miss at your destination (lost comm) and he's EXPECTING you to proceed to your alternate, that's about as authentic as it gets.

Well, for one thing, we've got a highly experienced controller telling us the opposite in post #29. And I've heard the same thing from others who sit "in front of the screen, watching..."
 
I seriously don't believe what I'm reading!! When the person sitting in front of the screen, watching you, is telling you that if miss at your destination (lost comm) and he's EXPECTING you to proceed to your alternate, that's about as authentic as it gets.

But the person sitting in front of the screen is not telling you that.
 
But the person sitting in front of the screen is not telling you that.

He/she doesn't need to tell me because it's expected of me. They will clear the airspace a head of me.

Floundering around on my own picking and flying what ever approach I think may work is a disaster waiting to happen. It would create total chaos trying to guess where I'm going and trying to clear people out of my way.

Fly the miss and proceed to the alternate. Heck, they even know your route because you put it in the "remarks"..:)
 
He/she doesn't need to tell me because it's expected of me.

You implied that ATC people who sit in front of radar screens are authoritative on this point. Now you seem to be changing your story.

They will clear the airspace a head of me.

Every controller that I've seen weigh in on this subject has said that they do indeed clear airspace for you, but they go on to say that they wait and see what you do. They DON'T make assumptions about where you're going or how you're getting there. The supervisor you're quoting is the first one I've heard of who says otherwise.

Floundering around on my own picking and flying what ever approach I think may work is a disaster waiting to happen. It would create total chaos trying to guess where I'm going and trying to clear people out of my way.

Not according to the controllers I've heard from.
 
I seriously don't believe what I'm reading!! When the person sitting in front of the screen, watching you, is telling you that if miss at your destination (lost comm) and he's EXPECTING you to proceed to your alternate, that's about as authentic as it gets.

Please, do yourself a favor and call ARTCC. I gave you the number. The person on the other end will know more about procedures and regs then you will ever know..
Do yourself a favor -- read 14 CFR 91.185, the AIM, and FAA Ordere 7110.65 and stop listening to a couple of random people who are not authorized to speak for the FAA on this topic.

And unless someone other than KAdriver has a question, I'm done.
 
He/she doesn't need to tell me because it's expected of me. They will clear the airspace a head of me.

Floundering around on my own picking and flying what ever approach I think may work is a disaster waiting to happen. It would create total chaos trying to guess where I'm going and trying to clear people out of my way.

Fly the miss and proceed to the alternate. Heck, they even know your route because you put it in the "remarks"..:)

Where did you come up with this nonsense? ATC isn't going to trust that you'll fly some route you've placed in remarks, to the exclusion of all other possible choices, in the event of a missed approach. You'll be tracked, if possible, and given a wide berth. If you can't be tracked other operations on all of your other possible choices will be suspended at affected altitudes until your whereabouts are known.
 
Where did you come up with this nonsense? ATC isn't going to trust that you'll fly some route you've placed in remarks, to the exclusion of all other possible choices, in the event of a missed approach. You'll be tracked, if possible, and given a wide berth. If you can't be tracked other operations on all of your other possible choices will be suspended at affected altitudes until your whereabouts are known.

Nonsense?? Seriously, call your local ARTCC and talk to a controller. Everything I said is EXACTLY what the controller supervisor told me yesterday.

I love it when someone jumps in on a conversation without facts or phone calls to those that would know..

People love to guess about what they think they know without ever verifying.

Make a call then we can talk. In the mean time, I'm going to go talk to the dog..

:mad2:
 
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