missed approach without holding pattern?

Everskyward said:
I fly IFR in the Rockies and I have never put the alternate or the routing in the remarks. I have also never known anyone else to do so or seen it suggested before yesterday.

Also, if they have no radar or radio contact because of terrain how do they know you have missed the approach and are proceeding to your alternate. You could have crashed.
Click to expand...

Perhaps you should re-familiarize yourself with the overdue aircraft/SAR procedures..
 
One last thing, using alternates in the Rockies is a very serious part of your planning. Airports are few and far between. Picking a good alternate away from the Wx is very important. The "remarks" part of the flight plan is where you put information you want the controller to see.

I want the controller to know that if I miss somewhere and we can't talk, I'm going to head to the NO PT fix or the IAF for the arc at my alternate. If they have me in radar contact, they can follow along. The more information they have, the better off this emergency can be managed.

Why in the world wouldn't you want the controllers to know what you plan is??

What is so friggn hard to understand about this??
 
Kiloalphadriver said:
Perhaps you should re-familiarize yourself with the overdue aircraft/SAR procedures..
Click to expand...

In what way? If your target is gone and they can't contact you they don't know what happened regardless whether or not you put something in the remarks.

Also you could have filed your flight plan hours before your proposed arrival and the weather might have changed. As you say, it can change quickly.
 
Everskyward said:
In what way? If your target is gone and they can't contact you they don't know what happened regardless whether or not you put something in the remarks.

Also you could have filed your flight plan hours before your proposed arrival and the weather might have changed. As you say, it can change quickly.
Click to expand...

Your question was about how do they know if you have crashed. They don't. But, they'll have a good idea of where to look. If I time out and they start SAR and I'm not at the original destination, they'll see I was planning victor xx to XYZ in remarks. And maybe, just maybe, that's a good place to look next.

When you file a flight plan "hours" before your departure, is that the last time you update the Wx??

You would wait for hours not caring what your alternate's Wx is doing??

I certainly update after I file. Usually many times right up to when we leave. If the alternate is dropping, I'll re-plan. If it changes enroute, I'll let center know.

You can do that, you know.

Man, this is really not that hard.
 
iNdigo:

Let me give you a hypothetical (but potentially very real) scenario:

It's 1989 and you file APA to EGE. Because of the Wx, you have to file an alternate. After looking at the "big picture" currents, and forecasts, you pick DRO as your closest alternate. (DEN and the front range is down, but of course, flyable. But not legal alt. EGE has been above mins all morning) Wx is much better to the south of EGE and everything north and west is not so good.

You're on approach at EGE and you get hit by "thundersnow" lightning and it fries your comms.

You have to miss at EGE and based on what you saw at mins, you doubt another approach will do it.

What do you do now??
 
Kiloalphadriver said:
Your question was about how do they know if you have crashed. They don't.
Click to expand...
Right, so they don't know if they need to clear that specific airspace or not. What you are doing is attempting to lock yourself in to a specific routing when, in reality, you would want to be able to consider all options. They also need to consider that you might have done something else since nothing in the regs prevents that.

Kiloalphadriver said:
When you file a flight plan "hours" before your departure, is that the last time you update the Wx??
Click to expand...
I didn't say hours before departure, I said hours before arrival. Your plane has more than a one hour endurance. I check the weather but I am not constantly changing the remarks.

I don't think anyone cares what you file in your own flight plan but you are acting outraged because other people don't follow suit.
 
Kiloalphadriver said:
iNdigo:

Let me give you a hypothetical (but potentially very real) scenario:

It's 1989 and you file APA to EGE. Because of the Wx, you have to file an alternate. After looking at the "big picture" currents, and forecasts, you pick DRO as your closest alternate. (DEN and the front range is down, but of course, flyable. But not legal alt. EGE has been above mins all morning) Wx is much better to the south of EGE and everything north and west is not so good.

You're on approach at EGE and you get hit by "thundersnow" lightning and it fries your comms.

You have to miss at EGE and based on what you saw at mins, you doubt another approach will do it.

What do you do now??
Click to expand...
I doubt I would pick Durango as my alternate. I don't necessarily pick the closest place. You didn't say what the weather was everywhere else but I would probably go to Grand Junction.

We fly to Eagle a lot. I even used it as a filed alternate about a month ago when the Front Range was socked in but Eagle was clear.

By the way it isn't 1989. That was 23 years ago. People want to know what procedures to use now, not way back in history.
 
Everskyward said:
Right, so they don't know if they need to clear that specific airspace or not. What you are doing is attempting to lock yourself in to a specific routing when, in reality, you would want to be able to consider all options. They also need to consider that you might have done something else since nothing in the regs prevents that.

I didn't say hours before departure, I said hours before arrival. Your plane has more than a one hour endurance. I check the weather but I am not constantly changing the remarks.

I don't think anyone cares what you file in your own flight plan but you are acting outraged because other people don't follow suit.
Click to expand...

So, in the hours before arrival, you don't check the Wx at your alternate?? If you checked you're alternate's Wx enroute, you won't have the surprise of it being down for hours without you knowing it..:rolleyes2:

And I never said anything about constantly changing the remarks. I may go months or years without the need to. But, I'll do it if I need to.

Outraged?? I don't care how people file. I originally suggested what I do and the attacks started.

I do mind be called a liar, though. That's not a good thing..
 
Everskyward said:
I doubt I would pick Durango as my alternate. I don't necessarily pick the closest place. You didn't say what the weather was everywhere else but I would probably go to Grand Junction.

We fly to Eagle a lot. I even used it as a filed alternate about a month ago when the Front Range was socked in but Eagle was clear.

By the way it isn't 1989. That was 23 years ago. People want to know what procedures to use now, not way back in history.
Click to expand...

I knew I should have said GJT was closed due to something.

I said 1989 so I wouldn't hear about sat link, etc. Not every aircraft has it.

If everything fries, it won't matter if it's modern times, will it??

So humor me, after looking at everything, DRO in your alternate. What do you do??
 
Kiloalphadriver said:
So, in the hours before arrival, you don't check the Wx at your alternate??
Click to expand...
That's not what I said. I didn't say specifically at the alternate but that was implied.

Everskyward said:
I didn't say hours before departure, I said hours before arrival. Your plane has more than a one hour endurance. I check the weather but I am not constantly changing the remarks.
Click to expand...
 
Kiloalphadriver said:
So humor me, after looking at everything, DRO in your alternate. What do you do??
Click to expand...
It's hard to look at "everything" since you didn't give much detail but if Durango was the safest option I would go there. Then there's always Farmington, which generally has better weather and is not that far away.
 
Everskyward said:
It's hard to look at "everything" since you didn't give much detail but if Durango was the safest option I would go there. Then there's always Farmington, which generally has better weather and is not that far away.
Click to expand...

How would you get to Farmington??
 
Everskyward said:
Climb real high and use GPS direct. :rofl:
Click to expand...

You're lost comm and you're supposed to land ASAP. Going "real high" doesn't allow you to get to the closest, suitable VFR airport.

I would fly the airways toward my alternate and stay at the MEA's, if possible (depends on ice, etc) Lots of airports under or near airways.

I have a better a chance of breaking out and seeing a suitable, VFR airport to land at.

And, since I'm headed to better Wx, it may not be that long before I find something. (or, at least something with a doable approach)
 
Kiloalphadriver said:
You're lost comm and you're supposed to land ASAP. Going "real high" doesn't allow you to get to the closest, suitable VFR airport.

I would fly the airways toward my alternate and stay at the MEA's, if possible (depends on ice, etc) Lots of airports under or near airways.

I have a better a chance of breaking out and seeing a suitable, VFR airport to land at.

And, since I'm headed to better Wx, it may not be that long before I find something. (or, at least something with a doable approach)
Click to expand...

Scratch the VFR part. It doesn't have to be VFR. I started another sentence with the in and forgot to delete it.
 
Everskyward said:
I'll bet I get there faster than you. :D
Click to expand...

Get where faster?? To the closest suitable airport?? Not from FL380.:yikes:

Another advantage of being on the airway is you can descend as you move away from higher terrain. You can drop down to the MEA's or MOCA's and know you're not going to hit anything. Plus, you increase your chances of getting under the Wx. Also, VOR's usually have some type of approach affixed to them. A big time saver when you're in the middle of an emergency..:)
 
Kiloalphadriver said:
Get where faster?? To the closest suitable airport?? Not from FL380.:yikes:
Click to expand...
Where did I say that? :rofl:

If you want me to be serious I'll say that I'd climb above the mountains and fly to the alternate. I wouldn't waste time trying to stay low and find VFR airports in questionable weather. There aren't that many between Eagle and Durango anyway. Plus there is a lot of terrain.
 
Everskyward said:
Where did I say that? :rofl:

If you want me to be serious I'll say that I'd climb above the mountains and fly to the alternate. I wouldn't waste time trying to stay low and find VFR airports in questionable weather. There aren't that many between Eagle and Durango anyway. Plus there is a lot of terrain.
Click to expand...

You would fly to the alternate?? Really?? Hey, you're not supposed to do that!!...:rofl::rofl:
 
Kiloalphadriver said:
You would fly to the alternate?? Really?? Hey, you're not supposed to do that!!...:rofl::rofl:
Click to expand...

Also, you fly over ASE and GUC on the way to DRO. It would be a shame if one of those was open and you didn't go for it.

You're required to land ASAP when safe and suitable and cancel.

But hey, that's just ME...
 
Kiloalphadriver said:
You would fly to the alternate?? Really?? Hey, you're not supposed to do that!!...:rofl::rofl:
Click to expand...
You're not REQUIRED to do that. There is a difference. You're the one who made up the scenario and said the best weather was in Durango which happened to be the alternate that you filed for me. But then you also said it was 1989...
 
Everskyward said:
You're not REQUIRED to do that. There is a difference. You're the one who made up the scenario and said the best weather was in Durango which happened to be the alternate that you filed for me. But then you also said it was 1989...
Click to expand...

I said better Wx to the south. ASE and GUC are to the south. My point is, if you're up in the flight levels you're shutting down airspace for hundreds of miles when maybe you'll to find something suitable lower and closer. Protected on an airway with VOR's for approaches, etc.

According to the experts here, center has no idea where you're going because they can't see your alternate...LOL

(But, they CAN see the remarks...:wink2:)

I don't know about you, but if my comms are out, I'm going to be concerned about the cascading failures that MAY follow. On the ground is a GREAT place to be with a broken airplane..


:mad2:
 
Kiloalphadriver said:
I said better Wx to the south. ASE and GUC are to the south. My point is, if you're up in the flight levels you're shutting down airspace for hundreds of miles when maybe you'll to find something suitable lower and closer. Protected on an airway with VOR's for approaches, etc.

According to the experts here, center has no idea where you're going because they can't see your alternate...LOL
Click to expand...
Right, so they don't know if you are going to try to get into Aspen or Gunnison. The MEAs are pretty high there anyway. Realistically if Eagle is below minimums and you're not sure what the weather is in Aspen or Gunnison it's probably better not to try. The MEAs are pretty high anyway and my comment about climbing to "above the mountains" puts you at that level anyway. I never said anything about climbing to FL380, you did. I know you won't run into anything in Colorado above 16,000.

Kiloalphadriver said:
(But, they CAN see the remarks...:wink2:)
Click to expand...
I know you are hung up on those remarks but as others have said, they are not going to rely on that.

Kiloalphadriver said:
I don't know about you, but if my comms are out, I'm going to be concerned about the cascading failures that MAY follow. On the ground is a GREAT place to be with a broken airplane..


:mad2:
Click to expand...
You do what you want. There is not really a "right" answer since there are so many variables, which I'm sure you will come up with if I continue playing your game.
 
Everskyward said:
Right, so they don't know if you are going to try to get into Aspen or Gunnison. The MEAs are pretty high there anyway. Realistically if Eagle is below minimums and you're not sure what the weather is in Aspen or Gunnison it's probably better not to try. The MEAs are pretty high anyway and my comment about climbing to "above the mountains" puts you at that level anyway. I never said anything about climbing to FL380, you did. I know you won't run into anything in Colorado above 16,000.

I know you are hung up on those remarks but as others have said, they are not going to rely on that.

You do what you want. There is not really a "right" answer since there are so many variables, which I'm sure you will come up with if I continue playing your game.
Click to expand...

There's a whole big mountain range between EGE and Gunny. And, of course, the mountains play a HUGE part in, well, um, mountain weather.

EGE could be down and on the other side of the range, clear. Ever hear of upslope?? It doesn't just happen on the front range, ya know...


I know you are hung up on those remarks but as others have said, they are not going to rely on that.

How in the world could you possibly know that?? Are you a mind-reader??

If you put in remarks you're planning the airway to your alternate and they see you on the airway, they may think "hey, look, he's on the airway headed towards his alternate XYZ. Gunny looks pretty good, so maybe he'll go there"

I didn't make up using the remarks. A controller suggested I use it years ago. And, I used it for 27 years in filing alternates. I only had praise from controllers for using it.

So, I have that or what I see here.

I'll take the controllers side...

If you don't want to put anything in "remarks", then, DON'T DO IT!!

Done, da da done done....done done...
 
Kiloalphadriver said:
Done, da da done done....done done...
Click to expand...
Good to hear that! :rofl:

Oh, and you'll run into more traffic going NORDO into Aspen than about anywhere else in the airspace around there.
 
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Everskyward said:
Good to hear that! :rofl:

Oh, and you'll run into more traffic going NORDO into Aspen than about anywhere else in the airspace around there.
Click to expand...

Ooops one more thing..

First, you said you would go "really high"

Then, you said you wouldn't waste time down low looking for airports.

Now, you're saying you could fly at 16,000 and not hit anything..

Hmmm sounds like flying at near the MEA to me..

:mad2:
 
Kiloalphadriver said:
First, you said you would go "really high"
Click to expand...
I was being half-facetious. Didn't you see the smiley? Besides, 16,000 is 'really high' for the the stupid small airplane drivers which you accuse us all of being. :D
 
Everskyward said:
I was being half-facetious. Didn't you see the smiley? Besides, 16,000 is 'really high' for the the stupid small airplane drivers which you accuse us all of being. :D
Click to expand...

And, I didn't call everyone here a weekend warrior trying to act like a pro. Just a couple of them.

You were not one of them.
 
bbchien said:
Ooh. Wow. A KING AIR driver. I could carry eight of them in the back, back in the day.
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Yeah -- we could carry a payload that weighed more than a fully-loaded King Air and more fuel than the weight of two fully loaded King Airs. But yes, I must admit that I was for a few years a "weekend warrior," although what I flew then weighed as much as three King Airs. :D
 
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ejensen said:
Yeah, and she drives little airplanes pretty good, too.:wink2:
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Flying your airplane for the little time I did made me realize that you need quite a bit of skill to manage one, maybe even more than it takes to fly a King Air. :devil:
 
Well, if you want to limit the comparisons to the smaller GA twins, the one I flew for about 10 years carried 4X as much weight in the fuel as a fully grossed-out B-200 weighs when it's ready to taxi out.

Ron Levy said:
Yeah -- we could carry a payload that weighed more than a fully-loaded King Air and more fuel than the weight of two fully loaded King Airs. But yes, I must admit that I was for a few years a "weekend warrior," although what I flew then weighed as much as three King Airs. :D
Click to expand...
 
Ray, thanks for coming here and straightening us all out.

If you've gotten surprised by a missed approach and are just figuring out where to go and then lose your coms, I guess your 30 plus years in the Rockies has been for naught.

When I get weather prior to an approach and I think there's even a chance of goig missed, I get the weather for all of the surrounding airports that I my want to go. I'll then tell the controller,"if I don't get in here, I'll want to head to airport B".

As other credible sources stated, you are not required to, or expected to go to your alternate. Going to your alternate may be your best option, but there may also be closer airports that are above minimums, but where not legal as alternates when you filed. As far as ATC is concerned, they don't care where you go, but they want you on the ground as soon as possible so they can end their NORDO aircraft procedures and move on with there day.

You really should know who your audience is before you start calling everyone a bunch of weekend warriors. Stick around, and you will learn Ron and Bruce's credentials. I think Steve had to tell you 3 or 4 times that he IS a controller before you stopped telling him to call a controller. Please hang around, it's a good group here. Realize that there is a very diverse group from student to ATP and military.
 
Dave Theisen said:
Ray, thanks for coming here and straightening us all out.

If you've gotten surprised by a missed approach and are just figuring out where to go and then lose your coms, I guess your 30 plus years in the Rockies has been for naught.

When I get weather prior to an approach and I think there's even a chance of goig missed, I get the weather for all of the surrounding airports that I my want to go. I'll then tell the controller,"if I don't get in here, I'll want to head to airport B".

As other credible sources stated, you are not required to, or expected to go to your alternate. Going to your alternate may be your best option, but there may also be closer airports that are above minimums, but where not legal as

alternates when you filed. As far as ATC is concerned, they don't care where you go, but they want you on the ground as soon as possible so they can end their NORDO aircraft procedures and move on with there day.

You really should know who your audience is before you start calling everyone a bunch of weekend warriors. Stick around, and you will learn Ron and
Bruce's credentials. I think Steve had to tell you 3 or 4 times that he IS a
controller before you stopped telling him to call a controller. Please hang
around, it's a good group here. Realize that there is a very diverse group
from student to ATP and military.
Click to expand...

I never once said you had to land at your alternate. Many times I said land as soon as possible and cancel.

I guess a lot of the problem is actually read the posts, eh?

Yes, there are weekend warriors here pretending to be pros.

You can just tell...
 
Kiloalphadriver said:
Yes, there are weekend warriors here pretending to be pros.

You can just tell...
Click to expand...

I'm a weekend warrior (except I usually fly on weekdays), but I have never once pretended to be a professional pilot.

As for the other people you have been arguing with in this thread, I don't know which mind-reading school you went to, but I think you need to demand your money back.
 
Are you implying that the descriptive term "lighter than a June frost" keeps running through your mind?

Palmpilot said:
I'm a weekend warrior (except I usually fly on weekdays), but I have never once pretended to be a professional pilot.

As for the other people you have been arguing with in this thread, I don't know which mind-reading school you went to, but I think you need to demand your money back.
Click to expand...
 
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