spiderweb
Final Approach
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Ben
Maybe, but the two you picked aren't.
missed approach without holding pattern?
- Thread starter olasek
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Maybe, but the two you picked aren't.
Palmpilot
Touchdown! Greaser!
I had to Google that one.
If you mean me, that would probably be an appropriate description!
wabower
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gismo
Touchdown! Greaser!
Did you have INS in 1989? I suspect that any lightning hit that "fries" your comms is likely to take out your VOR and DME so I'd say your best option in the scenario you proposed would be to head for somewhere you could manage to land without electronic guidance.
bbchien
Touchdown! Greaser!
denverpilot
Tied Down
+1 on KGJT in that scenario. KDRO is more likely going to be an ass kicking from the wind if KEGE is already down.
Yampa Valley is probably already down too. KEGE and the Front Range at minimums at the same time is one hell of a big storm. I think hanging out by the wood stove might be smarter if you didn't see that one coming.
The rest of this thread is hilarious.
gismo
Touchdown! Greaser!
I'm most entertained by the combination of arrogance ("I know I'm right") and elitism ("I fly a KA and therefore know a lot more than all you weekend flyers") but I must admit I was a little surprised to see Doc Bruce, Warthog Ron, and ace controller Steve respond to that with their own attempt to impress with credentials (BTW it doesn't look like KA was impressed by that).The rest of this thread is hilarious.
And Mari called the latest trolling game rather correctly "You do what you want. There is not really a "right" answer since there are so many variables, which I'm sure you will come up with if I continue playing your game"
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Kiloalphadriver
Pre-takeoff checklist
I'm most entertained by the combination of arrogance ("I know I'm right") and elitism ("I fly a KA and therefore know a lot more than all you weekend flyers") but I must admit I was a little surprised to see Doc Bruce, Warthog Ron, and ace controller Steve respond to that with their own attempt to impress with credentials (BTW it doesn't look like KA was impressed by that).
And Mari called the latest trolling game rather correctly "You do what you want. There is not really a "right" answer since there are so many variables, which I'm sure you will come up with if I continue playing your game"
Obviously, you people don't spend much time in sims. If you do, do you argue every hypothetical scenario with the instructor?
Geez
Most of you never bothered to look back through the thread. I merely passed along what I do and then, I was jumped on.
Take everything you read on these boards with a grain of salt and draw your own conclusions.
There has been some really bad advice given on this board which could result in loss of control by a low timer. (and no, the tip I passed along won't get you killed)
What I suggested worked well for me. It may not work for you and I don't care.
And No, I'm not impressed. I asked where they got their pro time or which seat they flew and never got an answer. Hmmm
Oh well..
Don't you just love the dog pile mentality?
Kiloalphadriver
Pre-takeoff checklist
Oh, and of course if the front range is down, it's usually good to the west and GJT is usually a good alternate.
But, I wasn't looking for the local Wx knowledge now, was I??
I knew it was coming and I tried everything to isolate the decision process about lost comm on a miss.
That worked well, didn't it?? LOL
I was in sim once years ago with a guy that flew for another company. They paired us because they had a sim down and wanted to get everyone through.
After repeatedly telling the sim instructor about going here or going there, the instructor finally said "okay, every airport is closed within 2000 miles except for these two!!
Man, I know how he felt..
But, I wasn't looking for the local Wx knowledge now, was I??
I knew it was coming and I tried everything to isolate the decision process about lost comm on a miss.
That worked well, didn't it?? LOL
I was in sim once years ago with a guy that flew for another company. They paired us because they had a sim down and wanted to get everyone through.
After repeatedly telling the sim instructor about going here or going there, the instructor finally said "okay, every airport is closed within 2000 miles except for these two!!
Man, I know how he felt..
Palmpilot
Touchdown! Greaser!
If someone makes thing up about you, you wouldn't set him straight?
roncachamp
Final Approach
Well, he did implore readers to ask a controller. How else would I explain why I don't need to ask a controller?
bbchien
Touchdown! Greaser!
wabower
Touchdown! Greaser!
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denverpilot
Tied Down
For KA...
Some of the guys you're debating with are controllers, some are high-time ex-pro pilots and CFIIs, one is a current pro jet pilot, so... you're kinda preaching to the choir.
They disagree with your tactics. It's the Internet. Big whoop.
Personally, I'm the low-time Private non-Instrument guy out of all the folks posting in the thread, and I learned something from your posts, but with oodles of experience here on PoA (and at least as many trolls without a clue and newbies), I've also learned to take it all with a grain of salt.
Lots of people show up here, say "ZOMG! That advice will kill you!" and aren't too civil about it. The folks you're arguing with have proven to be civil even in disagreement over a long period of time. It counts for something in a basically anonymous place like PoA.
Hang out. Disagree. Meet some of 'em in person. (That's the best part, by the way. Not the message board.) It's all part of the fun.
You said you were "trying not to get into specifics". Or that's a decent paraphrase anyway, I hope.
This place doesn't have much of a non-specifics kind of culture. Every non-specific hypothetical I've ever seen posted ended up demanding more detail. No one's too impressed by rules-of-thumb 'round this little watering hole.
You stumbled into the "Anal Internet Flyers Club" to some extent when you walked in the virtual door.
And I honestly don't know what a KA even is, so it makes no hay with me. The post about you using a nickname to impress are probably a little whacked, but are you? On the Internet, nobody really cares. There's even a few folks who have nicknames or avatars I don't believe have done anything they claim 'round here. You'll figure out who they are.
The folks you're arguing with aren't those people, IMHO. But they're not going to post their resume' for some guy who walked in off the street and didn't even say "Howdy" before asking a broad question with a lot of possible answers. Heh heh.
Anyway. Welcome to the insanity.
Hang out long enough to get to know the people behind the avatars. There's some pretty impressive resume' fodder hiding behind some of them.
And yeah, a whole lot of us are set in our ways. Like you.
I say "us" as a gaggle, but me, I'm too noob to be set in any ways, probably. Recreational flyer since 1991. No plans to make it a job unless someday I'm really really bored and feel like risking my life's worth in liability teaching noobs how to Aviate. I'm still under the impression that Instructors are a little crazy to want to hang out with people who try to kill them, daily.
(Jesse could probably tell ya my bad habits though. Since he chose to willingly share a cockpit and try to teach my dumb ass something for about 35 hours in December. Grin!)
Hope that helps.
Some of the guys you're debating with are controllers, some are high-time ex-pro pilots and CFIIs, one is a current pro jet pilot, so... you're kinda preaching to the choir.
They disagree with your tactics. It's the Internet. Big whoop.
Personally, I'm the low-time Private non-Instrument guy out of all the folks posting in the thread, and I learned something from your posts, but with oodles of experience here on PoA (and at least as many trolls without a clue and newbies), I've also learned to take it all with a grain of salt.
Lots of people show up here, say "ZOMG! That advice will kill you!" and aren't too civil about it. The folks you're arguing with have proven to be civil even in disagreement over a long period of time. It counts for something in a basically anonymous place like PoA.
Hang out. Disagree. Meet some of 'em in person. (That's the best part, by the way. Not the message board.) It's all part of the fun.
You said you were "trying not to get into specifics". Or that's a decent paraphrase anyway, I hope.
This place doesn't have much of a non-specifics kind of culture. Every non-specific hypothetical I've ever seen posted ended up demanding more detail. No one's too impressed by rules-of-thumb 'round this little watering hole.
You stumbled into the "Anal Internet Flyers Club" to some extent when you walked in the virtual door.
And I honestly don't know what a KA even is, so it makes no hay with me. The post about you using a nickname to impress are probably a little whacked, but are you? On the Internet, nobody really cares. There's even a few folks who have nicknames or avatars I don't believe have done anything they claim 'round here. You'll figure out who they are.
The folks you're arguing with aren't those people, IMHO. But they're not going to post their resume' for some guy who walked in off the street and didn't even say "Howdy" before asking a broad question with a lot of possible answers. Heh heh.
Anyway. Welcome to the insanity.
Hang out long enough to get to know the people behind the avatars. There's some pretty impressive resume' fodder hiding behind some of them.
And yeah, a whole lot of us are set in our ways. Like you.
I say "us" as a gaggle, but me, I'm too noob to be set in any ways, probably. Recreational flyer since 1991. No plans to make it a job unless someday I'm really really bored and feel like risking my life's worth in liability teaching noobs how to Aviate. I'm still under the impression that Instructors are a little crazy to want to hang out with people who try to kill them, daily.
(Jesse could probably tell ya my bad habits though. Since he chose to willingly share a cockpit and try to teach my dumb ass something for about 35 hours in December. Grin!)
Hope that helps.
gismo
Touchdown! Greaser!
Yeah I knew that was coming and you're right, I don't think KA noticed your occupation the first three times you gave it. Still the 28 years part went beyond that a little.
gismo
Touchdown! Greaser!
Nice post Nate. Right now I'd have to say yours is the best in thread, hands down.
For KA...
Some of the guys you're debating with are controllers, some are high-time ex-pro pilots and CFIIs, one is a current pro jet pilot, so... you're kinda preaching to the choir.
They disagree with your tactics. It's the Internet. Big whoop.
Personally, I'm the low-time Private non-Instrument guy out of all the folks posting in the thread, and I learned something from your posts, but with oodles of experience here on PoA (and at least as many trolls without a clue and newbies), I've also learned to take it all with a grain of salt.
Lots of people show up here, say "ZOMG! That advice will kill you!" and aren't too civil about it. The folks you're arguing with have proven to be civil even in disagreement over a long period of time. It counts for something in a basically anonymous place like PoA.
Hang out. Disagree. Meet some of 'em in person. (That's the best part, by the way. Not the message board.) It's all part of the fun.
You said you were "trying not to get into specifics". Or that's a decent paraphrase anyway, I hope.
This place doesn't have much of a non-specifics kind of culture. Every non-specific hypothetical I've ever seen posted ended up demanding more detail. No one's too impressed by rules-of-thumb 'round this little watering hole.
You stumbled into the "Anal Internet Flyers Club" to some extent when you walked in the virtual door.
And I honestly don't know what a KA even is, so it makes no hay with me. The post about you using a nickname to impress are probably a little whacked, but are you? On the Internet, nobody really cares. There's even a few folks who have nicknames or avatars I don't believe have done anything they claim 'round here. You'll figure out who they are.
The folks you're arguing with aren't those people, IMHO. But they're not going to post their resume' for some guy who walked in off the street and didn't even say "Howdy" before asking a broad question with a lot of possible answers. Heh heh.
Anyway. Welcome to the insanity.
Hang out long enough to get to know the people behind the avatars. There's some pretty impressive resume' fodder hiding behind some of them.
And yeah, a whole lot of us are set in our ways. Like you.
I say "us" as a gaggle, but me, I'm too noob to be set in any ways, probably. Recreational flyer since 1991. No plans to make it a job unless someday I'm really really bored and feel like risking my life's worth in liability teaching noobs how to Aviate. I'm still under the impression that Instructors are a little crazy to want to hang out with people who try to kill them, daily.
(Jesse could probably tell ya my bad habits though. Since he chose to willingly share a cockpit and try to teach my dumb ass something for about 35 hours in December. Grin!)
Hope that helps.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Palmpilot
Touchdown! Greaser!
Personally, I don't mind hearing about people's qualifications once in a while, because they don't harp on it, and it's very rare for anyone to say or imply that "Your opinion doesn't count because I have more experience than you." By and large, I think the people here are very good about giving reasons for their opinions instead of resorting to such appeals to authority.
roncachamp
Final Approach
Could be worse, some folks feel the need to list states flown in and aircraft types in every message they post.
wabower
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Most of the time they aren't necessary, but occasionally they're handy for whackamole situations.
gismo
Touchdown! Greaser!
spiderweb
Final Approach
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Ben
I'm going to say this just once. The two veteran pilots whom you pegged as weekend warriors are persons of integrity. When one attempts to call someone out, asking for credentials in the middle of a fight, it would be debasing to answer. This isn't sixth grade, so demanding, "Well who is YOUR daddy?" is not going to get a response.
I and many others could very specifically list their credentials; but we won't. Ask yourself why that might be.
By the way, it was -especially- classless when you called into question the veracity or professionalism of Dr. Bruce by wondering out loud at his profession.
Everskyward
Experimenter
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Everskyward
I would if someone started out with, "It's 1989" then rejected the first and most obvious answer because it wasn't the road they wanted to go down. That's why I made that sarcastic comment about "Real high and GPS direct" followed by a
smiley. Very few airplanes had GPS back in those days, if they did at all. Certainly nothing I was flying at the time did. Obviously my sense of humor is warped and somewhat obscure, and it's not funny if you need to explain your joke. 
denverpilot
Tied Down
So many people were doing that here when I joined,I added it to my sig.
Now the funny thing is I'm always using Tapatalk to access PoA and don't see anyone's sigs anymore at all because it doesn't pull anything but the avatars and message text through the API.
Someone privately asked me a few weeks ago, "Have you seen so-and-so's signature line?". Nope. I hadn't.
Captain
Final Approach
Can't believe I missed out on this whole thread. The title didn't seem that interesting to me for some reason. Goes to show you can't judge a book by it's cover.
KAPilot is absolutely right. Lost comms are all about expectations. If I'm on an IFR flight plan and let down on a VFR day and go around due to a moose on the runway, and on that go around I lose comms I must go to my filed alternate.
Now, if that filed alternate is bogged down with horrible weather that makes no difference, expectations are expectations.
Also, as I depart my VFR field NORDO and punch into the soup it would be wholly irresponsible to climb above the mountains and go direct. The much better technique would be to stay on the airways at MEA and fly the valleys to my filed alternate because, again, expectations...ATC expects me to fly as low as possible in the mountains.
Now, Cap'n Ron, is way off base stating alternate requirements are for fuel. There is clearly no correlation between A.) HAVING to have a legal alternate with fuel to get there plus reserves and B.) having enough fuel.
In summary, lost comms...go to the filed alternate. No choice in the matter. Also, putting the alternate route in the remarks? Not just clever...but brilliant!! Of course, in any abnormal situation you want to eliminate as many variables as possible and forcing a particular route on yourself with expired information is just plain good airmanship.
Of course, my opinion on this subject matter little as I'm just a weekend warrior...couple IFR flights a year.
KAPilot is absolutely right. Lost comms are all about expectations. If I'm on an IFR flight plan and let down on a VFR day and go around due to a moose on the runway, and on that go around I lose comms I must go to my filed alternate.
Now, if that filed alternate is bogged down with horrible weather that makes no difference, expectations are expectations.
Also, as I depart my VFR field NORDO and punch into the soup it would be wholly irresponsible to climb above the mountains and go direct. The much better technique would be to stay on the airways at MEA and fly the valleys to my filed alternate because, again, expectations...ATC expects me to fly as low as possible in the mountains.
Now, Cap'n Ron, is way off base stating alternate requirements are for fuel. There is clearly no correlation between A.) HAVING to have a legal alternate with fuel to get there plus reserves and B.) having enough fuel.
In summary, lost comms...go to the filed alternate. No choice in the matter. Also, putting the alternate route in the remarks? Not just clever...but brilliant!! Of course, in any abnormal situation you want to eliminate as many variables as possible and forcing a particular route on yourself with expired information is just plain good airmanship.
Of course, my opinion on this subject matter little as I'm just a weekend warrior...couple IFR flights a year.
wabower
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Have you personally ever had a lost comm situation while IFR?
If so, and subsequent to the conclusion of the flight, have you personally ever talked to center about what they want you to do if it happens?
Do you really think they want you to proceed to your alternate?
If so, and subsequent to the conclusion of the flight, have you personally ever talked to center about what they want you to do if it happens?
Do you really think they want you to proceed to your alternate?
roncachamp
Final Approach
Do you really think he was being serious?
wabower
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roncachamp
Final Approach
Absolutely.
wabower
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roncachamp
Final Approach
Affirmative.
olasek
Pattern Altitude
This is simply not true.
You must land as soon as practical - this is the main expectation. Land and notify ATC that you are out of the system. Going all the way to alternate while passing airports which have VFR weather would not only be stupid but also inconsiderate to other pilots who operate in the IFR system.
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roncachamp
Final Approach
Déjà vu
Captain
Final Approach
Well that doesn't even make sense. Why wouldn't I go to the REQUIRED alternate when I go lost comms? That's WHY we have a required alternate in the first place. Sure I can stop on the way to my alternate if I find a VFR airport, but I MUST depart for the alternate once on the missed approach with lost comms.
olasek
Pattern Altitude
Sorry, but this is utter nonsense. Does it even sound logical? Why would you depart VFR airport to continue flight to your 'required' alternate with lost comm?
And this is direct quote from AIM:
If the failure occurs in VFR conditions, or if the VFR conditions are encountered after the failure when operating under IFR, each pilot should continue the flight under VFR and land as soon as practicable.
(my underline)
If this is not clear enough I don't know what is.
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Captain
Final Approach
Well smarty pants. Why else would an alternate be required??? Lost comms. Ergo, the weather was marginal when I left so I filed my REQUIRED alternate. Now I shoot the approach and it's VFR. See? Required alternate for lost comms and now I'm not going to the alternate when I lose comms? That's crazy talk right there...
poadeleted20
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Perhaps not, but if you are not in and do not encounter VMC, going all the way to your destination is what 91.185(c) requires. If you choose to land somewhere short of your destination other than visually as required by 91.185(b) if you do enter VMC, you are exercising your emergency authority per 91.3(b) to deviate from the requirements of 91.185(c).
Of course, the folks in ATC will no doubt be thrilled, and from what I know, they will be clearing the airspace below you just in case you do decide to make that deviation, but if something goes wrong, you may face an investigation for your violation of 91.185(c), and for what it's worth, Flight Standards' written position on this is that lost comm is not by itself an emergency.
That said, I'm pretty sure I can make a good case for saying that loss of all radio communications capability is sufficient grounds for me to argue that there may be something seriously wrong with my plane's electrical system, and 91.7(b) says that if an unairworthy electrical condition develops in flight, I am required to discontinute the flight. Put that together with 91.3(b), and I think I can successfully beat a 91.185(c) charge.
So, if you put it all together, landing short of your destination in a lost comm situation is a violation of 91.185(c), but one which ATC won't mind and from which you should be able to successfully defend yourself.
poadeleted20
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To force pilots to carry enough fuel to have viable options. It's just another one of those "least common denominator" rules which the FAA created because stupid or arrogant pilots were ending up badly.
There is no regulation or AIM/AC guidance which says your filed alternate has any bearing on what you are required to do (or even should do) in the event of missing at your destination after losing comm. And there are any number of reasons why your filed alternate might be a really bad choice to which to go in that situation.