Midair at FDK (Frederick, MD)

There was very very little time between the controller telling the cirrus to "maintain his altitude" and the collision.

She should have said "maintain 1300 until turning base".

With no radar, how would she have known his altitude with enough precision?

It's my impression that controllers should always issue altitudes in MSL. If it's AGL, they need to explicitly say that.

Also, this controller seems "new". I can't put my finger on it, but it doesn't sound like she was very experienced based on her phraseology.
 
Augh that audio, hate to hear stuff like that. I can handle panicked people but in all the audio i've ever heard there always seems to be a difference between panic and that oncoming death sound people get that just grips your spine.

Just a reminder to keep your head on a swivel and expect the worst. Things like this always make me want to get a BRS system for any plane I am fortunate enough to one day own.
 
Vance Breese said:
I found the tower communication confusing. The way I read the facilities guide; FDK is at 306 feet MSL and the rotorcraft traffic pattern altitude is 1,100 feet MSL (794 feet AGL)
ATC had just told the Helicopter to remain below 1,000 feet. If I was the helicopter I would not be clear on weather ATC meant AGL or MSL.
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ATC never gives pattern altitudes any way but MSL.
 
It could be that either the cirrus was lower than she thought when she said "maintain altitude, or the helicopter (student?) thought she meant AGL for some reason.

Helicopters deal in AGL altitudes more than fixed wing aircraft don't they?
 
dans2992 said:
It could be that either the cirrus was lower than she thought when she said "maintain altitude, or the helicopter (student?) thought she meant AGL for some reason.

Helicopters deal in AGL altitudes more than fixed wing aircraft don't they?
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You don't get to choose. ATC instructions are never given as AGL.
 
Welp, that wasn't fun.

And, it's just after I got done watching the Combat Rescue series on Netflix.
 
dans2992 said:
It could be that either the cirrus was lower than she thought when she said "maintain altitude, or the helicopter (student?) thought she meant AGL for some reason.

Helicopters deal in AGL altitudes more than fixed wing aircraft don't they?
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We still use MSL for pattern stuff. AGL is used for low level NAV for military or if required, part 135 / company min altitudes.

Generally you'll see civ RW altitudes around 500-700 agl with FW around 1,000 AGL. Of course those are going to be published in MSL though.
 
Cruiser said:
I have also flown to FDK before and since the tower was commissioned.

It can be very misleading for a pilot to assume the controller has radar since most of the time that is true.
On an IFR flight plan the pilot expects separation services
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Then the pilot doesn't understand the system in which he or she is operating.
 
avi8tor4fn said:
Vance, when does ATC ever give an altitude instruction in AGL?
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Point taken.
I have experienced controller confusion about rotorcraft pattern altitude and noise abatement altitude.
It is my understanding that cloud cover is given as AGL.
I am easily confused.
I don’t know what the instruction to the Cirrus; “remain at your altitude” means.
I suppose it could be inferred that is pattern altitude.
Generally when I have received instructions like that they say at or above or at or below some particular MSL altitude.
At SMX or SBP if there were three aircraft is the pattern and I could only find two they would tell me to report number three in sight before I was cleared to land.
The local protocol is to remain at pattern altitude till turning base so it seemed odd to me that ATC mentioned this.
Please understand I am not saying ATC is wrong, only that I would have been confused by the narrow separation and the additional instructions and would have been on high alert.
At most of the local airports here rotorcraft fly a closer pattern because they are low, slow and have a poor glide ratio.
 
flyingron said:
Nope, in fact, this one causes problems. It should be decommissioned.
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Does the FDK tower have radar?

I haven't had much help from non radar towers.

ADS B can help. Recently I was at KMBT, an uncontrolled airport with a very busy flight training program. I have a stratus 1 with FF. There were 4 aircraft flying the pattern and I saw every one visually and on the iPad. Their altitude and position relative to me in the pattern was updated with about a 2 second lag.

The technology is there


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Pedals2Paddles said:
That certainly could be as well. To be well below 1000AGL at the location of the crash would be really really egregious. And we know he was 300 above TPA only moments before based on the radar data. So I think it is pretty unlikely. Clearly not impossible. But just unlikely.
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Thanks for keeping this on track with factual data.

Seriously.
 
Vance Breese said:
The local protocol is to remain at pattern altitude till turning base so it seemed odd to me that ATC mentioned this.
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I am not aware of any such rule in any of the airports I have flown into, both fixed and rotary. Granted, I have not flown into yours.
 
It'll be worthwhile to go through the audio to get a feel for what kind of instructions were being issued to the helos prior to the arrival of the Cirrus to get more of the picture.

This is harsh reminder that the tower is only responsible for ensuring that separation standards are met for runway operations (ie, cleared to land or takeoff), not for what happens in the Delta airspace itself.

It's not hard to imagine that if the helicopter had been a fixed wing aircraft at standard TPA on crosswind, the Cirrus could hit it as well, all while everyone is maintaining standard altitudes.

The difference is that at a non-towered field, when you announce entering on the 45 for the downwind and the guy on the crosswind hears it, he pipes up starts working with the guy entering downwind to make sure the two parties have a visual (or at least one sees the other).

At a towered field, you get told to enter a pattern, and it's easy to assume that if you simply enter at pattern altitude, no harm can come to you. It just isn't the case, and it doesn't necessarily mean it's all the tower's fault.

This will be a very interesting and informative read when the final report is published.

The best thing we can do is learn from it. This was a great reminder for me to trust but verify at non-radar towered airports. We get so spoiled with the red-carpet service at some fields. When you go to a field that isn't as well-equipped, it can be more precarious than a non-towered airport.

Something is also seriously wrong with the staffing for her to be dealing with clearance/ground duties with 3 helicopters + fixed wing arrivals in the pattern. A pattern that busy would require a constant vigil, especially with people coming and going on top of that.
 
btw, I know it's early too call it...but from the little I heard, it seemed as though her understanding is that the R44 was going to be operating below fixed wing TPA, and she issued instructions to the Cirrus to remain at present altitude (presumably, fixed wing TPA) until the base turn.

She knew he couldn't see one of the helicopters, so I'm going to assume she felt the instruction she issued was going to do the job.

So, it'll be interesting to see if those assumptions were reasonable. It'll also be critical to find out at what altitude they came together. Hopefully other radar sources will help with that. Someone was high, or someone was low, that would be my guess. Unless something went wrong at the controlling level, ATC is usually pretty proactive about letting an inbound aircraft know where conflicting traffic might be. In this case, she called out the fact that there were 3 helicopters operating below him, and then issued the altitude guidance. She was trying, at least that's how it sounds on a first listen.

Not sure I can listen to it again in its current form, though.
 
Can someone pm the unedited audio file. I want to hear it so its a strong reminder to pay attention while operating in a busy pattern.

Very SAd for all that was involved.


I want to hear the unedited version
 
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Checkout_my_Six said:
No tower radar.....just Potomac approach and it does not include the traffic pattern.

Next time you're out there.....look for the radar dome. There ain't one....
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Maybe your reading comprehension is challenged, but several folks have pointed out that while the tower may not have radar, there are plenty of radar facilities in the area that the NTSB will most likely be able to get sufficient track data from to assist in the investigation.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Maybe your reading comprehension is challenged, but several folks have pointed out that while the tower may not have radar, there are plenty of radar facilities in the area that the NTSB will most likely be able to get sufficient track data from to assist in the investigation.
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not at the location....and at pattern altitude.

I read just fine.....thank you very much. :D
 
That was tough.
I listened to hundreds of black box recordings during my training.

This one is pretty tough.

I feel sick. :(
 
And people wonder why I'm much happier flying on crappy weather days than nice days.

RIP. Very sad. :(
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
not at the location....and at pattern altitude.

I read just fine.....thank you very much. :D
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Please cite whatever it is that leads you to the conclusion that there are no approach radar facilities with coverage down to pattern altitude at FDK.

SixPapaCharlie said:
That was tough.
I listened to hundreds of black box recordings during my training.

This one is pretty tough.

I feel sick. :(
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I listened to it several times trying to piece some things together. And I'm just done.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
That was tough.
I listened to hundreds of black box recordings during my training.

This one is pretty tough.

I feel sick. :(
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I've read scores of CVR transcripts, but never listened to any recordings, as they are not released by the NTSB.
 
Pedals2Paddles said:
Please cite whatever it is that leads you to the conclusion that there are no approach radar facilities with coverage down to pattern altitude at FDK.


I listened to it several times trying to piece some things together. And I'm just done.
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when approach tells me they've lost me and I'm on an IFR approach....is that what you want to hear?

Again....tower has no airport radar facilities.

Maybe NORAD is available to NTSB....but, that might be doubtful.
 
Yep. In other words, you do not have any direct knowledge of what radar facilities have what capabilities. Just the one you happen to be talking to. This does not constitute your knowledge of every radar facility in the area that may or may not have coverage. Stating facts not in evidence is not helping. Much like the incorrect claims you made about which aircraft was doing what and where earlier.

I'm not trying to be a jerk. I'm trying to keep it to facts, and conclusions that only those facts can draw. Not based on personal feelings, likes, dislikes, or lack of complete reading.
 
Pedals2Paddles said:
Please cite whatever it is that leads you to the conclusion that there are no approach radar facilities with coverage down to pattern altitude at FDK.
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There isn't any radar down to pattern altitude. It's a well known fact.
 
evapilotaz said:
Can someone pm the unedited audio file. I want to hear it so its a strong reminder to pay attention while operating in a busy pattern.

Very SAd for all that was involved.


I want to hear the unedited version
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http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kfdk/KFDK-Oct-23-2014-1930Z.mp3
That is the complete file from 3:30pm to 4:00pm local (EDT).

avi8tor4fn said:
There isn't any radar down to pattern altitude. It's a well known fact.
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Ok, that isn't surprising, but be more specific to be more helpful. What is the radar floor?
 
From what I have heard, FDK Tower only has an ADSB receiver. I do not know if it is 1090/978. There has been a lot of uproar that the new tower does not have a radar feed from PCT (the approach control). People also need to understand that a radar display is not cheap. I would estimate at least 100k for an 'uncertified' display, and over 600,000 for a certified radar display. I would personally heard that IAD radar reaches about 1000 ft AGL at FDK.

With the budget constrains of the FAA, I would guess they did not have the money for that added expenditure. Along with that FDK Airport did not have that kind of money either. So the 'next best thing' was a ADSB In display. I do not know if everything I have heard by rumor is true or not, nor am I claiming it to be. A VFR tower is just that, VFR.

Fly safe and don't hesitate to ask questions about traffic, no matter who it pi$sses off. Its your life.
 
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Checkout_my_Six said:
radar?....if FDK only had radar.

BTW....I've been based at FDK since 1982.
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a similar of mid-air happened at UGN when Bob Collins hit the student. There was a call for radar there, too and they got a BRITE remote radar display.

That's not going to help much when you've got targets known crossing over each other a few hundred feet apart.

In the UGN mid-air Collins was closer than he said and the student was in the pattern so it might have helped the tower at least know that Collins gave his position wrong.
 
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Brad Z said:
I've read scores of CVR transcripts, but never listened to any recordings, as they are not released by the NTSB.
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Maybe I am referring to ACT feeds.
There is a collection of that stuff on airdisaster.com

It is a bunch of gut wrenching stuff but honestly as a student and even now, it helps remind me that flying, while fun, is to be respected.
 
There are lots of CVR and ATC recordings for lots of high profile accidents out there. Alaska 263 is up there with this one as far hearing horrible things.
 
mikea said:
This same kind of mid-air happened at UGN when Bob Collins hit the student. There was a call for radr there, too and they got a BRITE diplay.

That's not going to help much when you've got targets known crossing over each other a few hundred feet apart.
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Exactly. Everyone keeps talking about radar in the tower. It would not have made a difference. If its a D, there's a good chance it would be uncertified anyway. In that case it can't be used for traffic, only SA. Even if you had a certified BRITE, you'd have a cluster of targets with three helicopters and an SR22 flying over them. It would be hard to tell them apart. With a 200 ft pattern separation, if indeed that was the case, we're talking seconds before sep would be lost. Using your eyeballs would be much more beneficial than getting fixated on a display, especially during daylight and the aircraft close to the field.

Radar comes in handy for Class C & B where separation standards exist. Outside that, it's just a good tool to get a position on an aircraft.
 
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