Midair at FDK (Frederick, MD)

I've always disliked coming into FDK. Sometimes takes three tries to avoid non-compliant traffic (pre-tower days) and NORDO cowboys. One time I remember some gigantic Army chopper (C47 Chinook IIRC) just sweeping the active while I was turning base. I'f I'd not aborted the landing, his vortices would have had me rolled into a ball on the side of the runway.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
SR-22 should have flown a right pattern vs. a left pattern across the helo traffic area.
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Seriously? There is no right traffic for runway 30. And you don't just go off doing whatever you want either. And there is no helo area. That field is not the helicopter field. It's mid field, and it isn't theirs. It is very handy when 5/23 are active, but that's it. This is how the traffic pattern works any time that 30 or 12 are active. The controllers instructions were correct. And it certainly appears the actions of both pilots were correct. Sadly, all their correct actions met at the same spot in the sky.
 
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wsuffa said:
Reminder, folks, this is a towered field. Towers will not save your bacon from this sort of thing.

Eyes on a swivel!
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Nope, in fact, this one causes problems. It should be decommissioned.
 
Pedals2Paddles said:
Seriously? There is no right traffic for runway 30. And you don't just go off doing whatever you want either. And there is no helo area. That field is not the helicopter field. It's mid field, and it isn't theirs. It is very handy when 5/23 are active, but that's it. This is how the traffic pattern works any time that 30 or 12 are active. The controllers instructions were correct. And it certainly appears the actions of both pilots were correct. Sadly, all their correct actions met at the same spot in the sky.
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sure there is....they can do whatever they like. And I've flown right and left patterns on most all the runways there.

If you are based there, like me, you'd know the helos operate off the center of the airfield....
 
No, there is not. Unless there are extenuating circumstances, or you're approaching from the north on base to begin with, the pattern for 30 is and always will be left. You are ignoring the audio recording which you didn't listen to closely. You are ignoring the radar track. You are making up facts that are blatantly false. Please take some time to listen and read before you continue making these incorrect statements about this serious incident.

I'm well aware the helos operate out of the field most often. I watch them from my tie down all the time. You're statements about the pattern and controller are still false. The pattern doesn't just get turned upside down because there is a helicopter operating there.
 
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Pedals2Paddles said:
Seriously? There is no right traffic for runway 30. And you don't just go off doing whatever you want either. And there is no helo area. That field is not the helicopter field. It's mid field, and it isn't theirs. It is very handy when 5/23 are active, but that's it. This is how the traffic pattern works any time that 30 or 12 are active. The controllers instructions were correct. And it certainly appears the actions of both pilots were correct. Sadly, all their correct actions met at the same spot in the sky.
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I have flown Left Patterns for Runway 12, so no reason they could not do a right pattern for 30 when they have a need for safety.
 
Very sad. Makes me wonder if the enjoyment of flying is worth the risk. As I get closer to having a family I'm not sure it is.
 
radar?....if FDK only had radar.

BTW....I've been based at FDK since 1982.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
radar?....if FDK only had radar.

BTW....I've been based at FDK since 1982.
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Once again, you are not reading anything I wrote. Nowhere did I say it was FDK's radar. Again, please go back and read and listen. The pattern for 30 is left. That's the bottom line. What you want it to be doesn't matter. And maybe it should be the other way for this reason. But that isn't what it is today. I would love if it was right traffic too, just to stay away from the helos. But it's not.
 
Pedals2Paddles said:
Once again, you are not reading anything I wrote. Nowhere did I say it was FDK's radar. Again, please go back and read and listen. The pattern for 30 is left. That's the bottom line. What you want it to be doesn't matter. And maybe it should be the other way for this reason. But that isn't what it is today. I would love if it was right traffic too, just to stay away from the helos. But it's not.
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the pattern for any of the runways are what the tower allows.....period.
 
What the tower allows... guided by standard procedure, noise abatement, airport policy, FAA policy, etc etc. Runway 30 is left traffic. And that is what everyone was doing. Period. You can dislike that. You can have a better idea. Hindsight is 20/20. And I agree for these obvious reasons. But that's the way it is today. Maybe that will change now.
 
Śo why were the RW mixing it up in left traffic with FW? Not that it is a requirement to avoid the flow at towered fields but I'm wondering why it was necessary in this case.

Why was the RW at FW pattern altitude? Not that that is required as well but a little SA on the part of the R44 would suggest that they didn't need to be up that high especially since tower said they'd be below the SR22. If they were suppose to be up that high then there should have been some sequencing going on with the tower.

The traffic calls were fine but I would've liked to have heard a safety alert in there.
 
Velocity173 said:
Śo why were the RW mixing it up in left traffic with FW? Not that it is a requirement to avoid the flow at towered fields but I'm wondering why it was necessary in this case.
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When 12/30 is active, noise abatement keeps all traffic on the same side. It is crowded. And it has inherent risks. I never liked it either.

When 5/23 is active, they are indeed flying opposite patterns.
 
Pedals2Paddles said:
When 12/30 is active, noise abatement keeps all traffic on the same side. It is crowded. And it has inherent risks. I never liked it either.
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OK, makes sense. Now, why was the R44 at pattern altitude when tower said they'd be below the SR22? Is there a separate lower altitude established there for RW?
 
Sounding like the helicopter was too high...
 
I wonder the same thing. I have no idea actually what the usual pattern altitude is for the helicopters. But there is nothing that prohibits them from being at the standard TPA. Especially given training ops. To say they were too high is probably not accurate. Perhaps unexpectedly high, but not too high.

I sit at our tie down and watch multiple helos fly with multiple fixed wings, and it really makes me wonder. Now it really makes me cringe. I'm curious what may change because of this accident for us.
 
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Maybe he cirrus was too low. Altimeter setting wrong, etc.... We will have to wait and see.
 
Pedals2Paddles said:
I wonder the same thing. I have no idea actually what the usual pattern altitude is for the helicopters. But there is nothing that prohibits them from being at the standard TPA. Especially given training ops.
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And if they don't have a lower altitude, which could possibly be the case, then it's towers responsibility for sequencing the SR22 with the R44s. They aren't responsible for separation in this case but they are responsible for sequencing if they're both using the same runway.

So, someone indeed did mess up. Whether it was a sequencing error on the part of tower, the SR22 not maintaining altitude or the R44 climbing thru his altitude.

Sad situation all around.
 
I have also flown to FDK before and since the tower was commissioned.

It can be very misleading for a pilot to assume the controller has radar since most of the time that is true.
On an IFR flight plan the pilot expects separation services
 
mirage00 said:
Maybe he cirrus was too low. Altimeter setting wrong, etc.... We will have to wait and see.
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That certainly could be as well. To be well below 1000AGL at the location of the crash would be really really egregious. And we know he was 300 above TPA only moments before based on the radar data. So I think it is pretty unlikely. Clearly not impossible. But just unlikely.
 
I've done the inside pattern thousands of times and am comfortable with it. Normally the only conflict is extending helicopter down wind for a shallow approach. One of them must have blown their altitude. I'd go higher occasionally for 180 autos but always with the towers blessing.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
I disagree. She did it right. Called out all traffic (three helicopters), told him to maintain an altitude to avoid said helicopters... even then, she's a TOWER controller, and their sole separation responsibility is traffic ON THE RUNWAY... anything else is gravy. I feel for her having to deal with this, though.
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Yes, but she overrides the sane and prudent procedures that existed otherwise. There's always been a vibrant fixed wing (in the pattern), bizjet/heavy twin flying instrument approaches, glliders, and rotary wing training all going a the same time. Everybody knew how to avoid each other. The helicopters operated between the runways and the ramps, the gliders had the grass north of 12-20 and the fixed wing operated patterns NORTH of 12-30 or EAST of 5-23.

Now the freaking controller routes people every which way including putting an arriving fixed wing direclty into the helicopter pattern and hope that they would maintain vertical separation.

NO, count me firmly in the fact that the presence of the tower was at minimum A DIRECT SECONDARY cause, if not PRIMARY.
 
Velocity173 said:
And if they don't have a lower altitude, which could possibly be the case, then it's towers responsibility for sequencing the SR22 with the R44s. They aren't responsible for separation in this case but they are responsible for sequencing if they're both using the same runway.

So, someone indeed did mess up. Whether it was a sequencing error on the part of tower, the SR22 not maintaining altitude or the R44 climbing thru his altitude.

Sad situation all around.
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It is one of those three for sure...
 
Pedals2Paddles said:
Sir, you are incorrect. Listen again and look at the map I posted. The cirrus was not taking off. The cirrus was entering the pattern from the south west. The helicopter was taking off.

There is no right side of the runway when 30 is active. That's the edge of the airport. That setup with helicopters and fixed wing on opposite sides only works when 5/23 is active because the big field is there between the ramp and the runway. There is nowhere else for the helicopters to operate. And the noise abatement does not allow right traffic for 30 for the fixed wings. So everyone is sharing the same airspace when 12/30 is active, like it or not. The controller did nothing wrong.

It was see-and-avoid traffic, while turning and changing altitudes, with the sun in the background, the the controller working IFR clearances on ground. Lots of factors add up and intersect at a bad time.
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They threw out the noise abatement traffic patterns when the tower opened and will give you a downwind on either side of 30 anytime. The helos have always been separated from fixed wing by flying opposite patterns, well before the tower. She was not that busy with only two fixed wing and three helos doing their thing on the field. This should never have happened. It was safer before the tower.
 
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N801BH said:
It is one of those three for sure...
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Thing is, with no tower radar....how does one figure this out? I know the flight data from the SR22 will be pulled...but will that be enough to see how this happened?
 
avi8tor4fn said:
She was not that busy with only two fixed wing and three helos doing their thing on the field. This should never have happened. It was safer before the tower.
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20 seconds before the crash, she was reading an IFR clearance to and getting the read back from a bizjet on ground. I'd be willing to bet that will be a HUGE factor.

Again, I do not disagree that putting the fixed wing traffic to the north of 12/30 is a better place for them. I'm merely making the point that having them to the south of 12/30 is not explicitly incorrect and is in fact published to be that way. To say that the controller was wrong is not fair. Could she have done it differently, probably. Perhaps she would have done better if not for having to do the job of two or three people at once?

Flymeariver said:
Thing is, with no tower radar....how does one figure this out? I know the flight data from the SR22 will be pulled...but will that be enough to see how this happened?
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Approach radar has coverage down pretty low there. I'm not sure exactly how low.
 
Pedals2Paddles said:
20 seconds before the crash, she was reading an IFR clearance to and getting the read back from a bizjet on ground. I'd be willing to bet that will be a HUGE factor.

Again, I do not disagree that putting the fixed wing traffic to the north of 12/30 is a better place for them. I'm merely making the point that having them to the south of 12/30 is not explicitly incorrect and is in fact published to be that way. To say that the controller was wrong is not fair. Could she have done it differently, probably. Perhaps she would have done better if not for having to do the job of two or three people at once?
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Is it a FAA or contract tower?:dunno:
 
Pedals2Paddles said:
That certainly could be as well. To be well below 1000AGL at the location of the crash would be really really egregious. And we know he was 300 above TPA only moments before based on the radar data. So I think it is pretty unlikely. Clearly not impossible. But just unlikely.
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again....what radar data? There is no radar at FDK....
 
Flymeariver said:
Thing is, with no tower radar....how does one figure this out? I know the flight data from the SR22 will be pulled...but will that be enough to see how this happened?
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It's a cluster....and they are not capable of seeing all the traffic.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
again....what radar data? There is no radar at FDK....
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FDK is only a stones throw from Camp David. You better believe there's radar. Not atc radar, but there is radar. Just a matter of whether NTSB will be able to get a hold of it for investigation purposes.
 
Pedals2Paddles said:
The pattern for 30 is left. That's the bottom line. What you want it to be doesn't matter.
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No, it isn't. It WAS, before the tower and that is how it's published for noise abatement, but the controllers do what they want, or often what the pilot requests.

Just as the pattern for 23 is left, (and right for 5) but as soon as the tower opened, they directed pilots to either side of either runway. On a busy day, I've seen 4 or more aircraft on downwind on BOTH sides of the runway and they sort it out on base turns. When doing T&G's they will even give you your choice of right or left traffic each time around.

I've landed right downwind, but more often right base for 30 many times when entering north of the runway. They do the most expedient thing without bringing you over the runway to enter the preferred pattern.
 
Brad Z said:
FDK is only a stones throw from Camp David. You better believe there's radar. Not atc radar, but there is radar. Just a matter of whether NTSB will be able to get a hold of it for investigation purposes.
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No tower radar.....just Potomac approach and it does not include the traffic pattern.

Next time you're out there.....look for the radar dome. There ain't one....
 
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Checkout_my_Six said:
again....what radar data? There is no radar at FDK....
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Once again, please go back and read what I said, and listen to the audio. Approach radar. I'm well aware there is no radar on the field at FDK.
 
I found the tower communication confusing. The way I read the facilities guide; FDK is at 306 feet MSL and the rotorcraft traffic pattern altitude is 1,100 feet MSL (794 feet AGL)
ATC had just told the Helicopter to remain below 1,000 feet. If I was the helicopter I would not be clear on weather ATC meant AGL or MSL.
Traffic pattern for singles and light twins appears to me to be 1,000 AGL (1,306 MSL) large twins are 1,500 feet AGL (1,806 MSL).
ATCs instruction to the Cirrus to; “remain at your altitude” was not clear to me although the radar track has him close to the correct pattern altitude.
Many fixed wing pilots don’t know there is a rotorcraft pattern altitude.
200 feet of separation seems a little short to me.
We have a lot of helicopter activity at my home airport of Santa Maria, California (SMX) and the rotorcraft pattern altitude is 800 feet MSL while singles and light twins are 1,300 feet MSL. The faster aircraft are 1,800 feet MSL so they have 500 feet of separation.
There is no way to know if the helicopter was too high or the Cirrus was too low, only that the separation didn’t work out.
 
Vance, when does ATC ever give an altitude instruction in AGL?
 
Echoing what others have said, please DO NOT listen to the audio. I only wish I could unhear it. I'm sure it will haunt me for days and give me bad dreams. I have no desire to fly out of FDK where I am based now. This is especially tragic for the helicopter school who lost 4 people several years ago, including three of their instructors, in a R44 that hit a power line tower in the mountains while returning to FDK from HGR after a charity event.
 
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