Maintenance publications needed

[Jdm]

Question for the mechanics please.

I need a better manual system for working on a Bonanza. It’s an early 80s model that was purchased with an official, but old set of Beech hard binders. The set includes MM, IPC, and WDM. No revisions since the late 90’s. Should I get a new manual set, or can I get updates for this one? I need all manual pubs and revisions to properly accomplish maint for this aircraft and it’s components. I’m told that Textron is the only official source for airframe manuals and revisions but I see a number aftermarket references online?
I have no books for the engine and prop other than free internet sources. Continental has what appears to be a great service available on their website. I haven’t used the paid service but a tech rep that I talked with highly recommends it.
I’d definitely be interested in a reasonable AD service that’s better than searching the FAA’s website.
Any recommendations to simply the process? My concerns are maintaining legal compliance, and having all publications at hand to properly bring this airplane up to snuff without missing any procedures, bulletins, ADs, etc.

I also keep up the old Cessna, so it wold be a bonus score if any of the services included this airplane as well.

Thanks.

 

[Bell206]

Should I get a new manual set, or can I get updates for this one? I need all manual pubs and revisions to properly accomplish maint for this aircraft and it’s components.

My concerns are maintaining legal compliance, and having all publications at hand to properly bring this airplane up to snuff without missing any procedures, bulletins, ADs, etc.

Why do you believe your existing manuals will not allow you to "properly" or legally maintain the aircraft? The term "current" has several different meanings in the FARs with one version that allows the use of references that were "current" at the time the aircraft was originally certified. And in some cases if you revised your present manuals you may cause unintended circumstances if the aircraft's configuration is not updated as well.

I have no books for the engine and prop other than free internet sources.

Buy some used manuals for your model engine. Service manuals for the prop may be harder as outside of general upkeep you couldn't use those manuals under your AP. But there are some prop standard practice and owners manuals that have a lot of info.

I’d definitely be interested in a reasonable AD service that’s better than searching the FAA’s website.

Have the owner purchase ADLog for the aircraft. Can't recommend this more and makes your life easier. If you want a separate service for yourself then there are several out there like The AD Toolbox but they're around $500/year. I dropped my search program years ago in favor of ADLog.

I see a number aftermarket references online?

ATP is the industry leader and actually provides the official internet documents/references for certain OEMs. But it is very expensive.

 

[Dan Thomas]

Have the owner purchase ADLog for the aircraft. Can't recommend this more and makes your life easier. If you want a separate service for yourself then there are several out there like The AD Toolbox but they're around $500/year. I dropped my search program years ago in favor of ADLog.

Does ADLog catch the appliance ADs? No search that I ever used did, and I had to start itemizing various components on the airplane and checking to see if they were affected. I wrote up a long list as an aid for the guys in the shop, and it had dozens of possibilities such as carbs, magnetos, vacuum pumps, governors, fuel pumps, brakes, wheels, altimeters, avionics, seat belts and shoulder harnesses, fire extinguishers, ignition switches (the Bendix switch AD is not alone, and that check is very often mistakenly done on an ACS switch, which has its own AD), exhaust components, lots of stuff. I would usually find at least one and sometimes several outstanding ADs that way. Appliance ADs are not OEM airframe- or engine-specific, and most don't show up in those search categories. One has to get to know what is likely on a particular airplane.

 

[Bell206]

Does ADLog catch the appliance ADs?

Yes but requires additional setup just like the other search programs. Matter of fact one of the examples shown on the ADLog website is for the Bendix switch AD. Basically have to review the aircraft per a checklist and submit that list. Then it will pick up from there. My old Avantext program was the same way. I'd print out an appliance listing then inventory the aircraft against it. Some appliances would pop up on the general search but most had to be "manually" entered into the system since they weren't engine/airframe/prop specific.

 

[Dan Thomas]

Some appliances would pop up on the general search but most had to be "manually" entered into the system since they weren't engine/airframe/prop specific.

Yup. That's something a lot of owners don't understand, and the time it takes to do that can add up real quick. And it's why I used to find outstanding ADs: few mechanics take the time to do it. Many of them are trying to retain the customer by keeping labor costs down. But if the search is done once, properly, it's done forever unless a component is changed.

 

[Jdm]

Why do you believe your existing manuals will not allow you to "properly" or legally maintain the aircraft? The term "current" has several different meanings in the FARs with one version that allows the use of references that were "current" at the time the aircraft was originally certified. And in some cases if you revised your present manuals you may cause unintended circumstances if the aircraft's configuration is not updated as well.

Thanks. Valid points indeed. The fact that Beech offers revision services makes me believe that I should at least be aware of changes that have occurred over the years. Also, doesn't Beech offer more than just a “Maintenance Manual” which is what I have? Seems like I remember seeing a “Shop Manual” or other possible supplements which I don’t have.

Have the owner purchase ADLog for the aircraft. Can't recommend this more and makes your life easier.

Ok. Very interested. I’m actually part owner in this airplane. How much does it run?

 

[Bell206]

Also, doesn't Beech offer more than just a “Maintenance Manual” which is what I have?

Don't know. But a quick call to the publications dept at Beech will give you a list. There are also several databases you can sign up for free at Textron that give more support info depending on model.

How much does it run?

I believe its around $150 to get started and around $36/year to maintain. Request a quote on the ADLog website.

 

[baboss]

I've talked w/ Textron support before and had a rep email me manual revisions for free. Don't know that it will work for you but it can't hurt to try before you buy!
Parts manuals are free w/ a Textron account (also free) so at least you're good there.

 

[Jdm]

Great info there. I’ll give the pubs dept a call and also jump on the ADlog site.
This helps a lot. Thank you!

 

[Jdm]

Good to know they were helpful on the phone baboss. Yep I’m aware that the parts catalog is free. Thanks.

 

[Bell206]

Yep I’m aware that the parts catalog is free. Thanks.

There's also databases on kits and bulletins with greater access if you are an actual owner. They're accessible through one of the 2 links below once you sign up. I just don't remember which one is to which database.
https://ww2.txtav.com/Account/Login?ReturnUrl=/Dashboard
https://support.cessna.com/custsupt/csupport/newlogin.jsp

 

[AKBill]

This is how I set up my component list

 

[Jdm]

Yep, I’m on the registration. Will definitely check the databases. Very helpful.

 

[Jdm]

This is how I set up my component list

Nice equipment list there. I’ve got a lot of work to do with this airplane.

 

[Jdm]

And just to show a little, here’s a couple pics. We’ve had her about 6 mo. I do all the A&P stuff. For me it’s totally a side venture for the fun of it. A pretty sweet find I think. Low time, no damage, bla, bla, bla. Have it stripped out for new interior now. Amazing how much can be saved by doing your own interior removal, installation, and sign off.

Appreciate all the recommendations about the tech pubs.

 

[Jdm]

Think I have the manual situation resolved now.

AD’s: Took Bell’s advice and purchased ADlog. Just opened the box. Haven’t started trying to figure out the system yet. Looks like it’ll take time to get familiar with the binder. Apparently it comes with a fresh set of logbooks for the airframe, engine, and prop. Supposed to end the current logs and begin with the supplied ones. They claim that all maintenance documentation should fit in this one big binder. That would be great. Cost $180 + 3 ring binder fee and shipping. $40 per year afterwards.
Airframe MM: Textron Aviation. I called. They were very helpful. One year of A36 full access is outrageous! I declined and was offered a printed MM at a great price! Had to create an account. Then reviewed all available documents. Decided to pass on everything but the MM. Most of the other stuff is free anyway, and I already have a good WDM. Called back to purchase the MM and was told that it was actually 3x the original amount quoted. The high price was actually correct according to the website. They had given me a bad quote because they looked up the wrong S/N. They offered to review the recorded conversation and make an adjustment based on the misquoted price. Score! Purchased a fresh new manual and 1 year revision service for a small fraction of the normal $400 paper version.
Engine: Talked with Continental. Very helpful. They hooked me up with a small library of manuals. Everything they offer for $200. Excellent resource! Here’s the best part. They are all in PDF. So I can store them on my iPad, flash drive, print anything needed, etc. The PDF’s can be stored and used forever but the $200 access only last one year. Once I have them stored I should be good to go.
Prop: Didn’t do anything with prop manuals. Don’t think necessary.

Thanks for all the feedback.

 

[Bell206]

Purchased a fresh new manual and 1 year revision service

FYI: just a word of caution on using new/revised service manuals on older airframes. In some cases, the new manuals may not address your existing aircraft configuration as the OEM is known to assume all their recommended "upgrades" have been installed. So at a minimum do not discard your current older manuals. However, one of the biggest changes you may note is in the inspection sections of the new manual. If you plan to use the A36 manual as your inspection reference for 100hr and Annual inspections be sure you review the "new" recommendations vs the "old" recommendations as OEMs tend to include inspections requirements based on the latest aircraft configurations which can lead you down a slippery slope. For example, there maybe listed inspection references to various OEM bulletins that become valid even though the bulletin itself is not required by Part 91 ops. But perhaps the biggest example is how Cessna revised their older service manuals to include SID and CPCP requirements in those inspection section requirements. So if you own say a 1980 182 and follow the "current" applicable 1980 recommended inspection program you now have to comply with those SIDs, etc. And while you can legally exclude certain recommended inspection tasks in your maintenance entry, it can make for an interesting discussion if you ever have to explain those exclusions. Just keep in mind, new is not necessarily better with some things in maintenance and there is nothing illegal in using the "older current" manuals as your reference unless it not permitted by FAA rule.

 

[Kristin]

About a dozen years ago, FAA's legal office issued an opinion regarding whether Cessna's new inspection requirements were required to be performed on older aircraft. The opinion said "no" that the FAR's that specify use of the "current" manual meant the maintenance manual that was current at the time the aircraft was produced. The opinion explained that US law does not allow the OEM to effectively become a regulator through the updating of manuals.

 

[Domenick]

I made stickers to put in my old logs to direct further entries to ADLog:

See ADLog System Log

No.______ for further entries after________

And some stickers to put on each ADLog page with tail num, serial num, and model:

N1234X
88-12345657
Piper PA-28-161

 

[Bell206]

The opinion said "no" that the FAR's that specify use of the "current" manual meant the maintenance manual that was current at the time the aircraft was produced.

^^^^ This... unless the aircraft falls under 91.409(e) and by extension 91.409(f)(3) which then changes the definition from "current OEM program at the time produced" to "current at the time of program selection." It's one of those rules that makes no sense when both type aircraft are operated under straight Part 91.

 

[Kristin]

^^^^ This... unless the aircraft falls under 91.409(e) and by extension 91.409(f)(3) which then changes the definition from "current OEM program at the time produced" to "current at the time of program selection." It's one of those rules that makes no sense when both type aircraft are operated under straight Part 91.

It would be interesting to see how the FAA legal would thread that needle, considering that the above opinion came after that language in 91.409 which essentially forces turbine operators, et al, into being subject to OEM rulemaking in violation of the Administrative Procedures Act which was what FAA legal hung its hat on.

 

[Bell206]

It would be interesting to see how the FAA legal would thread that needle,

They already have, given the "at time of selection" requirement has been through APA and is rule under 91.409(f). I've never been able to get a straight answer on the why considering it only applies to 91.409(f)(3) as I can take any turbine helicopter and maintain it with a simple annual per the exemption in 91.409(e). Why only Part 91 turbine helicopters get exempt? Or I could simply select a different (f) option for the other affected aircraft. Granted the other three options require specific FAA approval but I wonder if I picked (f)(4) and developed an AIP if the FSDO would check my program line vs line with the "current OEM program at that particular time" and make me change it?

91.409:
"(f) Selection of inspection program under paragraph (e) of this section. The registered owner or operator of each airplane or turbine-powered rotorcraft described in paragraph (e) of this section must select, identify in the aircraft maintenance records, and use one of the following programs for the inspection of the aircraft:
https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/chapter-I/subchapter-F/part-91/subpart-E#p-91.409(f)

They further opine in the 2010 LOI below and linked it to the LOI you referenced:

"Our December 5, 2008, interpretation stated: "Therefore, to comply with§ 9l.409(f)(3) an operator need only adopt a manufacturer's inspection program that is 'current' as of the time he adopts it, and that program remains 'current' unless the FAA mandates revisions to it. "The primary issue addressed by that interpretation was whether a manufacturer could unilaterally revise its inspection program and thereby impose additional requirements on an aircraft owner or operator who had validly adopted a program that was current when adopted, but that would be rendered no longer current by the later revision. On May 22,
2009, the FAA's Flight Standards Service published an Information for Operators (InFO) bulletin (copy enclosed) that addresses issues and concerns surrounding the application of section 91.409(f)(3). Question number 2 under the heading of Frequently asked questions pertaining to § 91.409(f) is similar to your question; the Flight Standards Service answered: "The new owner would have to select the most current program at the time of purchase.The new owner may not use the program that had been selected by the previous owner."That answer, of course, assumes that revisions had been made after the first owner adopted the inspection program."
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...Nevitt Aircraft_2010_Legal_Interpretation.pdf

Here is the InFO referenced above:
https://www.faa.gov/other_visit/avi...afety/info/all_infos/media/2009/inFO09008.pdf

 

[rotormatic1]

Small Single engine airplanes (both piston and turbine) are not eligible to use the manufactures inspection program under 91.409(e) & (f). Must use 100hr/annual or a progressive (91,409(a) & (b) or (d))... you can use the mfg program as long as it meets the requirements of appendix D of part 43..,

 

[Jdm]

FYI: just a word of caution on using new/revised service manuals on older airframes. In some cases, the new manuals may not address your existing aircraft configuration as the OEM is known to assume all their recommended "upgrades" have been installed. So at a minimum do not discard your current older manuals.

Copy that! I’m definitely going to retain the older manuals for cross referencing. This airplane had a number of bulletins legally accomplished but certainly not all. I’ll have to sort through the mess the previous owner created. He signed off a bunch of bulletins and ADs as N/A using is private pilot certificate. Luckily, most of this nonsense was written on a separate AD sheet that can be tossed in the garbage.

The new airframe MM: Obviously the new manual from Textron is S/N specific but I’ve also noticed that they tend to make distinct procedural statements about certain bulletin compliance within the MM. Example: “With bulletin xxx incorporated, do this step, or exclude this step”. I haven’t received the manual yet but hopefully they have at least taken some of the guess work out of updating concerns.

 

[Kristin]

They already have, given the "at time of selection" requirement has been through APA and is rule under 91.409(f). I've never been able to get a straight answer on the why considering it only applies to 91.409(f)(3) as I can take any turbine helicopter and maintain it with a simple annual per the exemption in 91.409(e). Why only Part 91 turbine helicopters get exempt? Or I could simply select a different (f) option for the other affected aircraft. Granted the other three options require specific FAA approval but I wonder if I picked (f)(4) and developed an AIP if the FSDO would check my program line vs line with the "current OEM program at that particular time" and make me change it?

91.409:
"(f) Selection of inspection program under paragraph (e) of this section. The registered owner or operator of each airplane or turbine-powered rotorcraft described in paragraph (e) of this section must select, identify in the aircraft maintenance records, and use one of the following programs for the inspection of the aircraft:
https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/chapter-I/subchapter-F/part-91/subpart-E#p-91.409(f)

They further opine in the 2010 LOI below and linked it to the LOI you referenced:

"Our December 5, 2008, interpretation stated: "Therefore, to comply with§ 9l.409(f)(3) an operator need only adopt a manufacturer's inspection program that is 'current' as of the time he adopts it, and that program remains 'current' unless the FAA mandates revisions to it. "The primary issue addressed by that interpretation was whether a manufacturer could unilaterally revise its inspection program and thereby impose additional requirements on an aircraft owner or operator who had validly adopted a program that was current when adopted, but that would be rendered no longer current by the later revision. On May 22,
2009, the FAA's Flight Standards Service published an Information for Operators (InFO) bulletin (copy enclosed) that addresses issues and concerns surrounding the application of section 91.409(f)(3). Question number 2 under the heading of Frequently asked questions pertaining to § 91.409(f) is similar to your question; the Flight Standards Service answered: "The new owner would have to select the most current program at the time of purchase.The new owner may not use the program that had been selected by the previous owner."That answer, of course, assumes that revisions had been made after the first owner adopted the inspection program."
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/practice_areas/regulations/interpretations/Data/interps/2010/Sissons-Nevitt Aircraft_2010_Legal_Interpretation.pdf

Here is the InFO referenced above:
https://www.faa.gov/other_visit/avi...afety/info/all_infos/media/2009/inFO09008.pdf

Very interesting! Thanks! There seems to be some tension between these requirements and those addressed by the LOI that I cited, but no one ever accused the FAA of being entirely consistent.

 

[kshaw]

CSO Beech has a lot of avionics manuals and may have service manuals as well. Check there: https://www.csobeech.com/

 

[Jdm]

CSO Beech has a lot of avionics manuals and may have service manuals as well. Check there:

Yep, I checked there previously. Great resources. Using the site can be a little choppy finding the information but definitely a great source. Thank you.