Maintain VFR while IFR

ARFlyer

ARFlyer

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Today, while doing a student cross country I had a call that confused both my student, a II friend and me.

Upon being handed off from tower I received this call: "Radar contact, maintain VFR resume own navigation and altitude". I told my student to inform departure that we were IFR but received the same instructions. So we just climbed to our clearance altitude and proceeded via our filed route. The controller seem to have an attitude towards everyone.

Center was confused when we got handed off. He kept asking if we were IFR and if so what our clearance was.

So what the heck happened? Did departure completely drop the ball??
 
ARFlyer said:
Today, while doing a student cross country I had a call that confused both my student, a II friend and me.

Upon being handed off from tower I received this call: "Radar contact, maintain VFR resume own navigation and altitude". I told my student to inform departure that we were IFR but received the same instructions. So we just climbed to our clearance altitude and proceeded via our filed route. The controller seem to have an attitude towards everyone.

Center was confused when we got handed off. He kept asking if we were IFR and if so what our clearance was.

So what the heck happened? Did departure completely drop the ball??
Click to expand...

It happens sometimes, in which case I say "Bugsmasher 123 is IFR".
If they don't properly acknowledge that, I'd keep repeating it until they do, but that's never happened.
 
ARFlyer said:
Today, while doing a student cross country I had a call that confused both my student, a II friend and me.

Upon being handed off from tower I received this call: "Radar contact, maintain VFR resume own navigation and altitude". I told my student to inform departure that we were IFR but received the same instructions. So we just climbed to our clearance altitude and proceeded via our filed route. The controller seem to have an attitude towards everyone.

Center was confused when we got handed off. He kept asking if we were IFR and if so what our clearance was.

So what the heck happened? Did departure completely drop the ball??
Click to expand...

Yes, you did too. You should have been adamant that departure understood you were operating on an IFR clearance.
 
RotorDude said:
It happens sometimes, in which case I say "Bugsmasher 123 is IFR".
If they don't properly acknowledge that, I'd keep repeating it until they do, but that's never happened.
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That's what we did but the guy wouldn't catch the hint. So I didn't push it since it was CAVOK.
 
ARFlyer said:
That's what we did but the guy wouldn't catch the hint. So I didn't push it since it was CAVOK.
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As Steven noted above, that's a mistake on your part. It is your responsibility to push it until they get the message.
 
If you are actually IMC ,you have to let the controller know that. You are responsible for traffic clearance while VFR. Tell the controller you are actual and on an IFR clearance.
 
frfly172 said:
If you are actually IMC ,you have to let the controller know that. You are responsible for traffic clearance while VFR. Tell the controller you are actual and on an IFR clearance.
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I know. That's why I didn't push the issue beyond a few calls since it was clear and sunny.

I mainly just wanted to know if the controller slipped up.
 
ARFlyer said:
I know. That's why I didn't push the issue beyond a few calls since it was clear and sunny.



I mainly just wanted to know if the controller slipped up.
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Maybe call the facility and have the supervisor pull the tapes? (Or just let sleeping dogs lie...?)
 
dans2992 said:
Maybe call the facility and have the supervisor pull the tapes? (Or just let sleeping dogs lie...?)
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I'm going to let it lie. I just wanted to see if this happens a lot and what to do next time if its really imc.
 
ARFlyer said:
Today, while doing a student cross country I had a call that confused both my student, a II friend and me
Center was confused when we got handed off. He kept asking if we were IFR and if so what our clearance was.

So what the heck happened? Did departure completely drop the ball??
Click to expand...

Did you have a clearance? Did you then tell Center what is was?
 
If I were on an IFR clearance that was being actively denied by ATC, I'd definitely want to push the issue. Today CAVOK, tomorrow an incident. I'd even file a NASA report to get the issue in their safety database.
 
timwinters said:
You just need to be a bigger pr*ck, Andrew! ;)
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Yea, nice guys don't get ****... Be a dick right back to him. If your on a filed plan, launched IFR, don't let their mistakes become your problems. CAVU or not, home slice is slipping. I'd call the center and talk with a supervisor myself.
 
I am probably the last one to know, but I would suspect the contoller wanted to use lower separation standands for you since he knew it was VFR conditions. So my response would be something like "will maintain VFR conditions, please confirm we still have an IFR Clearance", of course if it isn't VFR conditions a simple "unable to maintain VFR" should suffice.

Brian
 
roncachamp said:
Yes, you did too. You should have been adamant that departure understood you were operating on an IFR clearance.
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Isn't this less apt to happen when on a filed flight plan rather than on a tower-to-tower clearance (TEC)?
 
brcase said:
I am probably the last one to know, but I would suspect the contoller wanted to use lower separation standands for you since he knew it was VFR conditions. So my response would be something like "will maintain VFR conditions, please confirm we still have an IFR Clearance", of course if it isn't VFR conditions a simple "unable to maintain VFR" should suffice.
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Weather conditions can limit the types of separation available but separation standards do not vary with weather conditions.
 
Were you at an IFR altitude?
 
ARFlyer said:
I'm going to let it lie. I just wanted to see if this happens a lot and what to do next time if its really imc.
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It doesn't happen a lot, but sometimes it does really happen that a controller gets it wrong about whether you're IFR or VFR, and I've had it happen both ways (they thought I was IFR when I was really VFR, and they thought I was VFR when I was really IFR). But as stated above, it's critical that you don't let go of the issue until you and the controller are agreed on your operating rules status.
 
Ron Levy said:
It doesn't happen a lot, but sometimes it does really happen that a controller gets it wrong about whether you're IFR or VFR, and I've had it happen both ways (they thought I was IFR when I was really VFR, and they thought I was VFR when I was really IFR). But as stated above, it's critical that you don't let go of the issue until you and the controller are agreed on your operating rules status.
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True. For VFR-only pilots out there, if you ever check in after a hand-off and the new controller says "descend and maintain xxx", and you're not in Class B (or perhaps Class C) airspace, you can assume that he thinks you're IFR. Best straighten him out ASAP.
 
ARFlyer said:
I know. That's why I didn't push the issue beyond a few calls since it was clear and sunny.

I mainly just wanted to know if the controller slipped up.
Click to expand...

To me it sure sounds like the controller slipped up. You should have pushed the issue, or play along and officially cancelled IFR. That protects you should there be a separation issue as a result of the misunderstanding.
 
If it happened just like the OP said it did. I would have politely asked for a number to call after I landed and once again tell the controller you were on a IFR flight plan...
 
Since the original topic has pretty much run it's course, I'll share a parallel story that happened to me coming out of Indy on last week's PnP trip. It went something like this:

(all from memory of course so some of the exact terminology may be a bit askew)

Me: Indy ground, N5057D, Signature ramp, VFR to the SW @ 4,500, 240 on-course heading, ready to taxi, Victor.

GRND: N5057D contact clearance on 128.75.

Me: Clearance delivery 128.75, 57D.

Me: Clearance delivery, N5057D, Signature ramp, VFR to the SW @ 4,500, 240 on-course heading, ready to taxi, Victor.

CD: N5057D, climb VFR to 3,000, 124.95 departure freq., squawk 4204

I read back, contact ground, taxi, and contact tower for take-off.

Tower: N5057D, cleared for take-off, turn left heading 180, climb to 3,500

I read back, take-off, and am turned over to departure.

Me: IND departure, N5057D, 2,500 climbing 3,500, 180 assigned.

Departure: 57D climb VFR to 4,000'

Me: climb to 4,000, 57D.

About 5 minutes later...

Departure: 57D cleared direct Bloomington

Me: now direct Bloomington, 57D.

Then I'm turned over to Hulman approach.

Me: Hulman approach, N5057D, 4,000 assigned, direct Bloomington.

Hulman: N5057D, advise you have Bloomington weather.

(skipping all tail number references below)

Me: Bloomington is not our destination, Charlie, Gulf, India is, Indy departure was vectoring us to Bloomington.

Hulman: You're not landing at Bloomington?

Me: No sir, destination is Charlie Gulf India, Cape Girardeau, MO.

Hulman: Would you like direct?

Me: Sir, I'm VFR, I didn't even ask for flight following but will take it if you have radar coverage this low.

Hulman: You're VFR?

Me: Yes sir.

Hulman: Say requested altitude.

Me: 4,500

Hulman: And you're a 172 right?

Me: No sir, we're a C182/G, (chuckle) we may look like a 172 on your scope with this headwind we're bucking.

Mysterious voice: Man, Indy didn't get anything right did they?

Hulman: 57D climb VFR to 4,500, maintain VFR and resume own navigation.

A couple of curiosities.

At most large airports I've visited I've been told to NOT contact clearance delivery unless I'm opening an IFR flight plan. When I was based at Springfield, MO I was chastised a few times for contacting CD when I was departing VFR. I flew a lot of instruments back then and contacting CD was a habit.

There is neither an airport or a VOR named Bloomington. The airport is Monroe County. The VOR on the field is Hoosier. I knew what he meant...I think...

I'm simply relaying that second tidbit as it parallels a recent thread about the confusion between Farmington VOR vs. Farmington airport.
 
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timwinters said:
Since the original topic has pretty much run it's course, I'll share a parallel story that happened to me coming out of Indy on last week's PnP trip. It went something like this:

(all from memory of course so some of the exact terminology may be a bit askew)

Me: Indy ground, N5057D, Signature ramp, VFR to the SW @ 4,500, 240 on-course heading, ready to taxi, Victor.

GRND: N5057D contact clearance on 128.75.

Me: Clearance delivery 128.75, 57D.

Me: Clearance delivery, N5057D, Signature ramp, VFR to the SW @ 4,500, 240 on-course heading, ready to taxi, Victor.

CD: N5057D, climb VFR to 3,000, 124.95 departure freq., squawk 4204

I read back, contact ground, taxi, and contact tower for take-off.

Tower: N5057D, cleared for take-off, turn left heading 180, climb to 3,500

I read back, take-off, and am turned over to departure.

Me: IND departure, N5057D, 2,500 climbing 3,500, 180 assigned.

Departure: 57D climb VFR to 4,000'

Me: climb to 4,000, 57D.

About 5 minutes later...

Departure: 57D cleared direct Bloomington

Me: now direct Bloomington, 57D.

Then I'm turned over to Hulman approach.

Me: Hulman approach, N5057D, 4,000 assigned, direct Bloomington.

Hulman: N5057D, advise you have Bloomington weather.

(skipping all tail number references below)

Me: Bloomington is not our destination, Charlie, Gulf, India is, Indy departure was vectoring us to Bloomington.

Hulman: You're not landing at Bloomington?

Me: No sir, destination is Charlie Gulf India, Cape Girardeau, MO.

Hulman: Would you like direct?

Me: Sir, I'm VFR, I didn't even ask for flight following but will take it if you have radar coverage this low.

Hulman: You're VFR?

Me: Yes sir.

Hulman: Say requested altitude.

Me: 4,500

Hulman: And you're a 172 right?

Me: No sir, we're a C182/G, (chuckle) we may look like a 172 on your scope with this headwind we're bucking.

Mysterious voice: Man, Indy didn't get anything right did they?

Hulman: 57D climb VFR to 4,500, maintain VFR and resume own navigation.

A couple of curiosities.

At most large airports I've visited I've been told to NOT contact clearance delivery unless I'm opening an IFR flight plan. When I was based at Springfield, MO I was chastised a few times for contacting CD when I was departing VFR. I flew a lot of instruments back then and contacting CD was a habit.

There is neither an airport or a VOR named Bloomington. The airport is Monroe County. The VOR on the field is Hoosier. I knew what he meant...I think...

I'm simply relaying that second tidbit as it parallels a recent thread about the confusion between Farmington VOR vs. Farmington airport.
Click to expand...

If I am VFR and receive a "clearance" (that I didn't request) for a fix X, where X is not an official waypoint or airport name and not my destination, that would raise a big red flag and I'd immediately inquire about it.
 
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Not defending ATC, who were obviously confused on at least two counts, but it's pretty obvious that they thought Tim was IFR when they cleared him direct Bloomington. At that point, Tim should have said something, and the failure to straighten things out then is at least partly on him.

I've done it too, was once handed off from Cleveland Center to Selfridge Approach somewhere in the Thumb and was immediately told to descend and maintain 5000. I played along, which I should not have. Fortunately the controller realized that I was VFR before too long. Best to clear up any confusion before things go too far down the rabbit hole.
 
I was still well inside the class Charlie when I was cleared direct Bloomington so I just assumed it was a vector. I don't fly often enough in the system anymore to analyze/critique the difference.
 
My initial call-ups to ground I don't bother telling them altitude or direction of flight unless I'm requesting FF. Any request to "contact clearance" to me implies IFR, which I suppose on a CAVOK day could be cleared up very quickly in-flight by "123CA cancel IFR".

The one thing I've learned as I've gotten back into flying more regularly the past year or so is that ATC is still as antiquated as it was when I got my ticket back in 2002. Since I like to fly from the Northeast down south, dealing with the DC SFRA / FRZ is something I had to do early last year. I realized after sitting through the FAA mandated training that they had to get creative with the limitations of the ATC computer system to allow VFR pilots to fly as if they were on an IFR flight plan, but not really on an IFR flight plan, to fulfill the requirements set forth in all the regulations surrounding that mess of an airspace. Sounds to me like the problems mentioned in this thread could be partly attributed to that ancient technology as well.
 
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azure said:
True. For VFR-only pilots out there, if you ever check in after a hand-off and the new controller says "descend and maintain xxx", and you're not in Class B (or perhaps Class C) airspace, you can assume that he thinks you're IFR. Best straighten him out ASAP.
Click to expand...

I had that happen once. My initial reaction was to do what he say, but after a minute, I requested to resume own navigation, and he got the message.
 
DeckardTrinity said:
My initial call-ups to ground I don't bother telling them altitude or direction of flight unless I'm requesting FF. Any request to "contact clearance" to me implies IFR, which I suppose on a CAVOK day could be cleared up very quickly in-flight by "123CA cancel IFR".
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...or it could just be that you are at an airport with different procedures than you are used to.

Towered airports that ask for direction of flight from VFR departures without coordinating flight following and those that have VFR pilots contact CD for departure instructions both exist.
 
To venture a guess, GeorgeC's plan was entered by CD to BMG because it's a point SW of Indy and that's all he had. IFR vs. VFR is purely an altitude thing so if he inadvertantly puts in an even altitude subsequent controllers are going to get confused.

It took me a while to figure out why I'd frequently turn into a Navajo on handoff between DC sectors. Turns out popup VFRs the controllers would punt and put in single letter identifiers. While P for Piper and C for Cessna are pretty obvious. N usually had the next controller scratching his head as to what type that was.

The only bizarre one was given the descent to IAD and the strong tailwinds, I was doing like 180 knots ground speed heading for runway 12. It was night and the controller asks if I have my landing lights on. It's on my gear, hold on I tell him. Turn on the landing light switch, close the throttle and haul back on the yoke and drop the gear at 87 knots. Now the lights come on, but the tower is like 3 miles away from the runway threshold. All they see is that my forward speed has pretty much stopped and now I'm moving vertically
.

27K What sort of airCRAFT is that?

(I guess he wasn't even going to admit to it being an airplane). Full flap, gear down, approaches in the Navion are scary steep to the uninitiated.
 
flyingron said:
IFR vs. VFR is purely an altitude thing so if he inadvertantly puts in an even altitude subsequent controllers are going to get confused.
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Interesting; so if I'm cruising VFR eastbound at 3000MSL and <3000AGL, is the implication that a controller might be more likely to mistake me for IFR traffic?
 
First clue: Being cleared direct Bloomington when that is not your destination. Second clue: Being assigned an IFR altitude. They must have got you confused for someone else.
 
BTW...

As I said at the beginning of the story "all from memory so some of the exact terminology may be a bit askew."

I'm not sure departure used the exact terminology "57D cleared direct Bloomington."

He may have said "57D, right turn, direct Bloomington" or something similar.

I had no suspicion at the time that the controller may have thought we were IFR because the last instruction from the same controller had been "57D climb VFR to 4,000'."

That quote is pretty close to what he actually said because I had a buddy along who is a retired 20 year Air Force pilot (and who was flying this leg) and we had a brief discussion about whether the "VFR climb" allowed us to turn on course or if we were still bound by the previously issued 180 heading. We deduced that we were still bound to 180...but decided to ask anyway...and the controller confirmed.
 
Maintain VFR while IFR: Happened to me yesterday departing Lakeland, FL. I received the IFR clearance before taxiing and a takeoff clearance from the tower with instructions to fly straight out for 2 miles before turing on course. That seemed a bit odd for an IFR departure. About a mile out, the tower told me I could proceed on course but didn't instruct me to contact departure. I asked twice if they wanted me on departure but they didn't answer. So I called Tampa departure and told them I was proceeding on course and climbing to 2,000.

TPA: Maintain VFR
Me: I'm IMC and have an IFR clearance
TPA: Maintain VFR at or below 3,500.
Me: Be advised, I am IMC and have an IFR clearance.
TPA: You have an IFR Clearance?
Me: Affirmative.

In 10 or 15 seconds they found the clearance and confirmed it with me. I had just read this thread so I was primed :)
 
That must give you a warm fuzzy feeling being IMC and then realizing that ATC is not aware that you're IFR and not ensuring your separation from other traffic.

:lol:
 
narchee said:
That must give you a warm fuzzy feeling being IMC and then realizing that ATC is not aware that you're IFR and not ensuring your separation from other traffic.

:lol:
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I bet it scared the controller more.....:yikes:
 
There is a conveluded procedure some mountain airports use where you depart on an IFR flight plan but maintain VFR until FL 180. This is done when the SE climb performance cannot comply with a published departure.

That said, I don't think that's what is happening here..
 
Kritchlow said:
There is a conveluded procedure some mountain airports use where you depart on an IFR flight plan but maintain VFR until FL 180. This is done when the SE climb performance cannot comply with a published departure.
Click to expand...

Maintain VFR until reaching FL180? Oh, I don't think so.
 
Kritchlow said:
Yup. Common out of Aspen, Jackson Hole etc... Get a clearance with a "VFR climb".
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Kinda....

99.9% of the time it is maintain VFR up to 16,000....

If 180 is used, the jets will be in class A airspace before center can clear them higher..
 
Kritchlow said:
Yup. Common out of Aspen, Jackson Hole etc... Get a clearance with a "VFR climb".
Click to expand...

No. The instruction "Maintain VFR" is used in the literal sense; the pilot is to maintain Visual Flight Rules. While operating on an IFR flight plan a pilot can request a VFR climb; the instruction will be "maintain VFR conditions between [altitude] and [altitude], but the altitudes cannot be in Class A airspace.
 
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