Maintain VFR while IFR

N801BH said:
Kinda....

99.9% of the time it is maintain VFR up to 16,000....

If 180 is used, the jets will be in class A airspace before center can clear them higher..
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To be honest they never have told me exactly when I'm now IFR. I knew when I entered class A I was IFR. Correct that when coming out of ASE the initial altitude was often 16,000.

It's been several years since I've used that procedure. It was back in my 91K flying, and before we subscribed to the alternate SE procedures.
 
roncachamp said:
No. The instruction "Maintain VFR" is used in the literal sense; the pilot is to maintain Visual Flight Rules. While operating on an IFR flight plan a pilot can request a VFR climb; the instruction will be "maintain VFR conditions between [altitude] and [altitude], but the altitudes cannot be in Class A airspace.
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Tell that to the folks in Aspen and Jackson. The initial clearance always started with "VFR climb". I've done it more times than I can count, but not in several years.
 
Kritchlow said:
Yup. Common out of Aspen, Jackson Hole etc... Get a clearance with a "VFR climb".
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And....

Ever since the Mooney crash and the Serco/ ATC multi million dollar settlement.... you really have to beg for " I can maintain "terrain separation" .. clearance....

The Mooney next of kin cashed in for 12 million because the PIC was a complete idiot and it was cheaper to settle out of court...

I REALLY hate how the legal system works...:mad2::mad2::mad:
 
Kritchlow said:
Tell that to the folks in Aspen and Jackson. The initial clearance always started with "VFR climb". I've done it more times than I can count, but not in several years.
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If folks anywhere in the US are doing it that way they're doing it wrong. But perhaps after several years you just don't remember accurately.
 
roncachamp said:
If folks anywhere in the US are doing it that way they're doing it wrong. But perhaps after several years you just don't remember accurately.
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Whatever...
I think your an air traffic controller but not sure. If so, give the tower at ASE a call. Our old (defunct) call sign was "Five Star".
 
Kritchlow said:
Whatever...
I think your an air traffic controller but not sure.
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I was an air traffic controller. Almost two years ago the FAA told me to leave and not come back.

If so, give the tower at ASE a call. Our old (defunct) call sign was "Five Star".
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Call them for what purpose?
 
N801BH said:
And....

Ever since the Mooney crash and the Serco/ ATC multi million dollar settlement.... you really have to beg for " I can maintain "terrain separation" .. clearance....

The Mooney next of kin cashed in for 12 million because the PIC was a complete idiot and it was cheaper to settle out of court...

I REALLY hate how the legal system works...:mad2::mad2::mad:
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Yikes... Like I say it's been a while for me.
It sounds like you have gotten the same VFR climb clearance?
 
roncachamp said:
I was an air traffic controller. Almost two years ago the FAA told me to leave and not come back.



Call them for what purpose?
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Not trying to be combative... We are both professional aviators. You're on one end, I'm on the other. I've been doing this so many years that I truly have come to appreciate what ATC does.
That said, that was indeed a procedure at one point in history. Regardless, we eventually subscribed to the alternate procedures and stopped using that clearance. As I said in my initial post, it was conveluded. I never really did understand how we got away with it. I tried it once coming out of DAL and the controllers had no clue what I was talking about.
Now I'm with a major airline and don't care about that crap.
 
Kritchlow said:
Not trying to be combative... We are both professional aviators. You're on one end, I'm on the other. I've been doing this so many years that I truly have come to appreciate what ATC does.
That said, that was indeed a procedure at one point in history. Regardless, we eventually subscribed to the alternate procedures and stopped using that clearance. As I said in my initial post, it was conveluded. I never really did understand how we got away with it. I tried it once coming out of DAL and the controllers had no clue what I was talking about.
Now I'm with a major airline and don't care about that crap.
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I can say with absolute certainty that it was not a valid procedure anywhere in the US within the past 32 years.
 
roncachamp said:
I can say with absolute certainty that it was not a valid procedure anywhere in the US within the past 32 years.
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And I can tell you with absolute certainty it happens all the time. Not sure what to say.
 
roncachamp said:
Negative.
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Interesting...
You know, I do not doubt your knowledge of the rules. I do indeed believe what you say. That said, I flew the 135/91K stuff for 20 years. I'm not making it up either. Like I said, the good folks at DAL were also dumbfounded when I asked for a VFR climb (110 degrees at gross weight. Couldn't make the required 3.3 gradient).
 
Kritchlow said:
Interesting...
You know, I do not doubt your knowledge of the rules. I do indeed believe what you say. That said, I flew the 135/91K stuff for 20 years. I'm not making it up either. Like I said, the good folks at DAL were also dumbfounded when I asked for a VFR climb (110 degrees at gross weight. Couldn't make the required 3.3 gradient).
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As I said in message #40, a VFR climb is valid, but it is not done as you described in message #36 and it can't be done in Class A airspace.
 
roncachamp said:
As I said in message #40, a VFR climb is valid, but it is not done as you described in message #36 and it can't be done in Class A airspace.
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- Damn... Now I need to go hunt down #36 !!!
- I never said it was done in Class A.
- What did I describe that's incorrect in your opinion?
 
Nah... I'm standing by my 36. The exact altitude is irrelevant. I said we were IFR upon entering the flight levels.

Your 40... Still disagree. But that's okay.
 
Even if it were ATC saying "maintain VFR", what's the practical difference??

Maintain a VFR in the climb or cleared VFR climb... Splitting hairs??
 
Kritchlow said:
- Damn... Now I need to go hunt down #36 !!!
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Here ya go:
Kritchlow said:
There is a conveluded procedure some mountain airports use where you depart on an IFR flight plan but maintain VFR until FL 180. This is done when the SE climb performance cannot comply with a published departure.

That said, I don't think that's what is happening here..
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- I never said it was done in Class A.
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Above all of the airports you mentioned FL180 is Class A airspace.

- What did I describe that's incorrect in your opinion?
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I explained that in message #40.
 
Kritchlow said:
Nah... I'm standing by my 36. The exact altitude is irrelevant. I said we were IFR upon entering the flight levels.
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You didn't say that in message #36 and that would not be possible with what you say you were given, "maintain VFR until FL 180."

Your 40... Still disagree. But that's okay.
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It's not a matter of opinion.
 
roncachamp said:
Here ya go:




Above all of the airports you mentioned FL180 is Class A airspace.



I explained that in message #40.
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You really want to get into a ****ing match??? I said VFR until FL180.
Sheesh... I tried to compliment you many times and you keep it up.

Do you think I'm lying?
 
roncachamp said:
You didn't say that in message #36 and that would not be possible with what you say you were given, "maintain VFR until FL 180."



It's not a matter of opinion.
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I quit. I see you're just looking for an arguement. You can quote and cherry pick whatever you want, but the entire thread shows the context.

I'm not the only one here that had received this clearance, but you seem to think you're the only one that can be correct.
 
Kritchlow said:
There is a conveluded procedure some mountain airports use where you depart on an IFR flight plan but maintain VFR until FL 180. This is done when the SE climb performance cannot comply with a published departure.

That said, I don't think that's what is happening here..
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I don't think so either because in that situation the pilot needs to tell ATC that they can maintain their own terrain separation and climb in VFR conditions.
 
Everskyward said:
I don't think so either because in that situation the pilot needs to tell ATC that they can maintain their own terrain separation and climb in VFR conditions.
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Look... I've done this many,many times. We used to call and request a VFR climb on initial contact with clearance delivery. That speaks for itself.

In Part 25 airplanes we need to maintain a SE climb rate that meets the criteria in the departure. If no criteria listed, we need to meet a 3.3 % gradient (200 ft per nautical mile).
The VFR climb procedure is a loophole to avoid that requirement out of mountainous airports. Period.
 
Everskyward said:
I don't think so either because in that situation the pilot needs to tell ATC that they can maintain their own terrain separation and climb in VFR conditions.
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I apologize... I think I misunderstood your post.
 
Kritchlow said:
You really want to get into a ****ing match??? I said VFR until FL180.
Sheesh... I tried to compliment you many times and you keep it up.

Do you think I'm lying?
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I don't think you're lying, you're just wrong. You can't maintain VFR until FL180 as that would put you in Class A airspace without an IFR clearance.
 
roncachamp said:
I don't think you're lying, you're just wrong. You can't maintain VFR until FL180 as that would put you in Class A airspace without an IFR clearance.
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Lol!!!! Really?? UNTIL FL180, at which time you transition to IFR. Am I speaking a foreign language here?
 
roncachamp said:
I don't think you're lying, you're just wrong. You can't maintain VFR until FL180 as that would put you in Class A airspace without an IFR clearance.
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Class A airspace starts at 18,000 MSL, not FL180 -- see 14 CFR 71.33(a). With an altimeter setting of less than 29.42, you could be legally cruising VFR at 17,500 MSL (the highest legal VFR cruising altitude) while operating above FL180. That's why the minimum usable flight level changes with lower-than-standard altimeter settings -- see 14 CFR 91.121(b) for details.
 
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Kritchlow said:
I'm learning that.... The hard way.
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I had a similar disagreement with him where he essentially said that something that happened to me didn't happen. Essentially, what he said required that I was either lying, or I was too stupid to understand. Turns out, after parsing it all out, the only possible basis for his attack was his differing opinion over the what the word "near" meant.
 
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