Looking for your stories about checkrides & DPE searching

StraightnLevel said:
That's not due to differences in the applicants' abilities, is it?
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It's not? So a DPE who contracts to reserve three days a week for students from a flight school in the habit of sending underprepared students should have the same pass rate as every other DPE. And a DPE who only accepts applicants from CFIs he knows meticulously prepares his students, same.

Both of these scenarios exist in real life.

It seems that anyone claiming he can judge a DPE merely by his pass rate may misunderstand more than just statistics.
 
Princesspilot206 said:
I was apart of the process of drafting the most recent FAA bill. I specifically wrote some legislative text on the topic of DPE's. DPE's are now going to be regulated on the national level instead of the local. Many DPE's have the ability to do checkrides but for whatever reason elect not to. There is currently a window of opportunity available for people looking to become DPE's to submit their application.
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DPE’s have been regulated at the national level for some years now.

That “window of opportunity” is always open.

Your “information” is dated.
 
I recently did a pre-checkride flight with a private applicant that....
He did the oral portion of the checkride then discontinued due to weather.
rescheduled flight portion a couple times due to weather and airplane availability.
Then the DPE had a medical issue and could not continue. IMO I think the DPE should have recommended/coordinated with another DPE to finish the check ride, but perhaps by this time there just wasn't enough time do get one scheduled without having to redo the full test.
Of course the 60day limitation kicked in so the applicant had to redo the check ride. Life and discouragement got in the way so it was year before he tried again.
Had to discontinue again due weather.
rescheduled, and during the flight portion, he messed up the go-abound, Hint: don't fully retract the flaps below Vx speed(172). He knew he screwed up as soon as he did it.
I flew with him as part of his prep for the retest.
Scheduled the retest. 1 hour before the retest, the airplane experienced a mechanical issue and was down for a week waiting for parts.
Rescheduled, and finally completed his private pilot certificate.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
brcase said:
I recently did a pre-checkride flight with a private applicant that....
He did the oral portion of the checkride then discontinued due to weather.
rescheduled flight portion a couple times due to weather and airplane availability.
Then the DPE had a medical issue and could not continue. IMO I think the DPE should have recommended/coordinated with another DPE to finish the check ride, but perhaps by this time there just wasn't enough time do get one scheduled without having to redo the full test.
Of course the 60day limitation kicked in so the applicant had to redo the check ride. Life and discouragement got in the way so it was year before he tried again.
Had to discontinue again due weather.
rescheduled, and during the flight portion, he messed up the go-abound, Hint: don't fully retract the flaps below Vx speed(172). He knew he screwed up as soon as he did it.
I flew with him as part of his prep for the retest.
Scheduled the retest. 1 hour before the retest, the airplane experienced a mechanical issue and was down for a week waiting for parts.
Rescheduled, and finally completed his private pilot certificate.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
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lol almost sounds like my experience, but he had a few more hoops to jump through. Very glad his determination kicked in and he was able to finish!
 
brcase said:
I recently did a pre-checkride flight with a private applicant that....
He did the oral portion of the checkride then discontinued due to weather.
rescheduled flight portion a couple times due to weather and airplane availability.
Then the DPE had a medical issue and could not continue. IMO I think the DPE should have recommended/coordinated with another DPE to finish the check ride, but perhaps by this time there just wasn't enough time do get one scheduled without having to redo the full test.
Of course the 60day limitation kicked in so the applicant had to redo the check ride. Life and discouragement got in the way so it was year before he tried again.
Had to discontinue again due weather.
rescheduled, and during the flight portion, he messed up the go-abound, Hint: don't fully retract the flaps below Vx speed(172). He knew he screwed up as soon as he did it.
I flew with him as part of his prep for the retest.
Scheduled the retest. 1 hour before the retest, the airplane experienced a mechanical issue and was down for a week waiting for parts.
Rescheduled, and finally completed his private pilot certificate.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
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That’s really bad luck right there. Glad he persevered and got it done.
 
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Lindberg said:
It's not? So a DPE who contracts to reserve three days a week for students from a flight school in the habit of sending underprepared students should have the same pass rate as every other DPE.
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...and the DPE isn't working with the CFIs and school to address it? Why or why not?
 
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Lindberg said:
I assume that in the military, applicants don't choose their examiner.
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No, but in my experience as one, it’s an apples and oranges comparison. Also, my recurring evals (every 18 months) could only be performed by another examiner from the group or wing that oversaw my squadron.

I had to he checked on my performance and my instructional performance, both. Failing to intervene as an instructor could hook me and would jeopardize my status as an instructor.
 
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Lindberg said:
It's not? So a DPE who contracts to reserve three days a week for students from a flight school in the habit of sending underprepared students should have the same pass rate as every other DPE. And a DPE who only accepts applicants from CFIs he knows meticulously prepares his students, same.

Both of these scenarios exist in real life.

It seems that anyone claiming he can judge a DPE merely by his pass rate may misunderstand more than just statistics.
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Interesting analysis! Funny enough, the DPE that conducts C.R.s at our school (3 days a week) is known to be more strict regarding the ACS than other DPE’s contracted to come perform C.R.s at our school, periodically (once a month or so).

It is a rare occasion that our students pass the practical portion with him initially, and recently some of our commercial and CFII candidates have selected to go with DPEs from out of state who charge twice or three times the rate he charges, because they are a bit “more lenient” (this is from other student accounts). But I’ve also seen these same out-of-state DPEs come and fail the same students who thought they would be more lenient lol.

I think it’s safe to say that none of us truly know what all DPEs are doing and how they interpret how safe a student is. Some are a bit lenient on ACS standards and some aren’t. Some are lenient on safety and some are stricter.

I think an argument about the reason behind a DPE that passes many students or one that fails many students is quite difficult to have. If we aren’t sitting in the plane observing the examination, we just won’t know unless the DPE and the student’s account of the C.R. are the same.

Good discussion.
 
StraightnLevel said:
...and the DPE isn't working with the CFIs and school to address it? Why or why not?
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THIS! Our DPE definitely has conversations about students that are failing, especially if they are failing on the same things consistently. The School Administrators have received their share of lecturing from him when it happens!
 
I had my first three check rides with the same examiner.

Private ride, we did the oral, but the weather was crap. Just barely got the flight portion in within the 60 days.
Only thing I really remember from that check ride was that it was about 15-20kts surface wind, but straight down the runway. When we did the short field landing, I swore he said get it stopped within 200ft of the numbers. He just wanted me to touch down within 200feet. It was a 152, and I got it stopped within 200ft. He asked what that was, I said I thought you said stopped within 200ft. He laughed, I passed.

Instrument ride, I remember nothing of the actual ride, but the oral and preflight was fun. First, I told him that the three questions I got wrong on the written were XC planning for flights I wasn't flying so I didn't give a **** if I got the answer wrong or right, and just guessed. The XC he gave me to plan had 100ft ceilings at the destination. Told him I didn't bother with planning the times or fuel burn since we weren't going. But here's my navlog for a no wind situation. We went over it, I showed him how I would calculate, and that was good enough. Oh, went to preflight the plane, and it was dead. Someone left the master on. Jumped it from a truck.

Commercial ride, it was 20G30 down the pipe, and I nailed everything except the one thing I wasn't worried about: Power off 180. Started the turn earlier than I would normally because of the headwinds. CFI had drilled into me that I was prohibited from using slips on the check ride. So I didn't. I dove it down when I saw I was high, figure I could bleed speed, and float it to the landing point. I floated, and floated, and was probably five hundred feet past the landing point, when wheels finally chirped. He asked why I didn't use a slip. I told him I wasn't allowed to. He went in and tore the CFI up and down. Passed it the next time with 0 issue. I think he did that retest at no charge since he was based at the airport anyway.

CFI ride was a BS fail. Short field take off on 5000' runway. Told the DPE this is where I pull the gear up if it's an actual short field, but I'm not because we still have usable runway, and if the engine dies, I'd rather use the remaining runway and roll out than belly it in. Fail, because I didn't actually retract the gear.

Seaplane check ride was a blast. Actually had glassy water, and the DPE showed me how the recommended way doesn't work with that particular plane. Did the oral in the plane.

Multi was pretty boring other than the single engine instrument approach, and I forget why, but for some reason we had to start a go around. That got interesting when the plane started to roll. reduced power and landed anyway. It's been years, so I don't recall the specifics.
 
MauleSkinner said:
And I’ve only heard that happen once…but it was HILARIOUS!
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Heyyy I’m sure it was!! The stuff that happens on C.R. Day with Checkride brain is out of control!! Aww man…I can’t even tell you the foolishness I did on my C.R while trying to enter a non-towered airport (stuff I’ve never done before). Yup, DPE dinged me on it and we were laughing about it when we got back after the briefing lol. I wasn’t happy that I failed certain things but we laughed about the hooligan flying we both saw on my C.R. BBC of nerves lol. It was still a valuable lesson though…being nerved up can cause a bad day in aviation. I definitely learned from the things I failed on.
 
schmookeeg said:
wtf is the point of holding a designation and not using it? In the midst of a DPE shortage that's appalling.
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“Holding a designation” IS the point for some. “It’s mine, and you can’t take it away.”

I’ve known a couple over the years that became designers to fill a need in a small area of aviation and don’t exercise privileges outside of that niche.
 
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schmookeeg said:
wtf is the point of holding a designation and not using it? In the midst of a DPE shortage that's appalling.
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Idk if this is true or not (as to the reason many aren’t doing C.R.s) but I heard that many don’t like the scheduling requirements from the FAA. Meaning, there’s a certain deadline when you give your list of students to the FAA for designated C.R. dates and that you can’t alter that list (if a student cancels or whatever the case, you can add a student that is available) due to the list you’ve already submitted. I heard it’s massive paperwork and it requires a lot of money to upkeep the designation and training.

Again. I heard these were contributing factors.
 
MauleSkinner said:
“Holding a designation” IS the point for some. “It’s mine, and you can’t take it away.”

I’ve known a couple over the years that became designers to fill a need in a small area of aviation and don’t exercise privileges outside of that niche.
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Then it is FAA mismanagement not culling these people.

Oh, but wait, then they can claim "staffing resource issues" for not lighting up more examiners to replace them.
 
schmookeeg said:
Then it is FAA mismanagement not culling these people.
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Which ones?
schmookeeg said:
Oh, but wait, then they can claim "staffing resource issues" for not lighting up more examiners to replace them.
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Or they can still claim that most checkrides are still given within two weeks of completing the IACRA application, so there’s no shortage of examiners.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Or they can still claim that most checkrides are still given within two weeks of completing the IACRA application, so there’s no shortage of examiners.
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Well snap, I hadn't considered that as a used metric, because who the hell fills out IACRA before getting an examiner date sorted out?? But that makes a ton of sense. Nobody is going to file the IACRA, wait the 8-12 weeks (and up) it takes to get on a DPE's schedule and then not fly anymore -- so why compute flight times twice?

Argh. :mad2:
 
schmookeeg said:
Well snap, I hadn't considered that as a used metric, because who the hell fills out IACRA before getting an examiner date sorted out?? But that makes a ton of sense. Nobody is going to file the IACRA, wait the 8-12 weeks (and up) it takes to get on a DPE's schedule and then not fly anymore -- so why compute flight times twice?

Argh. :mad2:
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No need to update times…they already show qualification for the checkride, and backing up logbooks is so easy that having your most current times in IACRA for a lost logbook scenario is unnecessary.
 
Tai said:
Idk if this is true or not (as to the reason many aren’t doing C.R.s) but I heard that many don’t like the scheduling requirements from the FAA. Meaning, there’s a certain deadline when you give your list of students to the FAA for designated C.R. dates and that you can’t alter that list (if a student cancels or whatever the case, you can add a student that is available) due to the list you’ve already submitted.
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Not true.
 
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It's an incestuous dynamic, I don't care what the ingroupers say. Every single highly qualified outgrouper (doesn't matter, 121, 135 or military, I've asked all 3) has said the same thing. Apply, crickets.

And yes, FSDO claims of not having enough manning to manage the DPE onboarding is the go-to talking point. It really chaps my rear, given this line of work would be a straight line to what I've done for more than a decade and a half, and pays (day rate) commensurate with my level of experience, to say nothing of most of my peers don't want to do it (piston work while major 121 direct-hireable). Complete gridlock, such is life.

Does the FAA have a public list of part 141 schools with self-examining authority? Trying to get read up on what these outfits pay those entrusted in doing the equivalent work of ASIs and DPEs. I'm ready to be disappointed, but keeping an open mind.
 
hindsight2020 said:
It's an incestuous dynamic, I don't care what the ingroupers say. Every single highly qualified outgrouper (doesn't matter, 121, 135 or military, I've asked all 3) has said the same thing. Apply, crickets.
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100%! If the feds can go to the trouble and expense to randomize checkride topics for the A&P practical because DMEs were generating "easy tests", I think they can just as easily randomize DPE applicant acceptance and stir up the good-ol-boy club.
 
schmookeeg said:
100%! If the feds can go to the trouble and expense to randomize checkride topics for the A&P practical because DMEs were generating "easy tests", I think they can just as easily randomize DPE applicant acceptance and stir up the good-ol-boy club.
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You still have the human dynamic that has to be addressed. Randomizing the applicant acceptance of DPEs would be like randomizing the hiring process for most any job. You want the best applicant, and the only way to measure is by personal interaction. Yes, that’s going to result in some highly qualified/desirable applicants not being selected, but it also eliminates the applicants who think the FAA is inherently evil and have been avoiding all contact for as long as they’ve been flying.
 
s/evil/lazy-and-disinterested and that's me disqualified :P :D

I get it, and it's close to that third rail of "DEI", so that'd be an easy one to kick downrange.

Still. It's broken as it sits. Everyone I know who submitted a DPE app (hateful of the agency or otherwise) have not been well treated, and several would probably give them an earful if they DID finally call, but... Iunno. It's an opaque and petulant agency that doesn't seem to evolve without Congress forcing them.

I'm surprised I haven't heard more DOGE'ing with them, since we have another opaque and petulant person with both beef AND power right now.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Which ones?

Or they can still claim that most checkrides are still given within two weeks of completing the IACRA application, so there’s no shortage of examiners.
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Two weeks after completion by the applicant or two weeks after completion of the Vogon filing system? (Writing) "triplicate orders, sending them back, querying, losing and finding them, subjecting them to public inquiry, and then finally, burying them in soft peat for three months before recycling them as firelighters." (Douglas Adams, Hitchiker's Guide)
 
WDD said:
Contact as many students who recently took a check ride as you can and ask their opinions. Contact as many CFI's and get their opinions as well. Build your own custom list with pros and cons of each. Availability, fairness, approachability, distance, cost, quirks, what and how they give the test, etc. DPE's can vary quite a bit. Years ago one local DPE was failing half of the applicants; word got around on that one.
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Thanks! That's what we're doing now, but not many students are ready to contact. Usually we get no answer.
We`ve been conducting a research about challenges that students (usually foreign) face while searching DPE and really need respondents: https://forms.gle/hLq7oimah8vyQvax5
 
Initial Fix said:
What is the research for? Paper, study, professional??

As others commented here and the past, we have various DPE challenges. Not enough geographically, not enough for various ratings, DPEs who do many dozen rides and some that apparently do very few, and many more examples here on PoH. I’ve heard of “failures” for trivial reasons, but not the DPE side of what else was going in the cockpit.

A friend just passed his private after a 3 month ride delay due to a weather cancellation. The DPE was just that backlogged.

There was another lengthy thread on DPE not too long ago too.
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Professional. We`ve faced that problem too and decided to study it in more detail in order to find possible solutions. Developed the forum for DPE themes: https://dpe.flights/ and now working on gaining a community (https://www.linkedin.com/company/dpe-rating-selecting-team/) of pilots who are ready to share their experience.
Planning to create a platform that will become a reliable assistant for all pilots seeking professional growth and development. We want to provide them with the opportunity to find experienced and qualified DPEs by the required date without long waiting and exhausting searches.
 
Tai said:
My experience with a specific DPE was great. We have a DPE that regularly performs checkrides for students at the school I attended. He also performs them at other schools within the Houston area. He was very strict about safety, and fair according to ACS standards. If any student did anything that was considered unsafe (busting altitude, not performing preflight/before take off checklists, not making your point on shortfield take-offs, power-off stalls, etc) he would issue an automatic fail.

His debriefing sessions were also great and informative. He is very thorough on the oral/ground portion. This is the feedback that I've experienced from other students from my school and my own experience for both of my checkrides.

My first checkride expired due to not being able to complete the 2 items that I failed (on my initial C.R.) due to weather and time constraints (re-endorsements for my school and for my retest). He also tried to reschedule me 4 different times within 2 weeks to conclude my finish-up, but the weather just wouldn't permit it. The week after my C.R. expired, the weather was gorgeous and so he quickly put me on his schedule for a new C.R. I had to complete another full checkride w/ him, and he required an examination of an entire oral/ground session (2.5hrs) and practical (2hrs), according to the FAA rules. He was not happy that I had to complete another full checkride with him, but with all of the circumstances, neither him nor I could avoid it.

Some students that knew about what happened, felt a certain type of way, especially when they knew I was having refreshers before each of my reschedules (I was actively flying weekly to prepare for each checkride reschedule that could never happen bc of weather), and didn't quite think it was right that I had to redo everything again. The fact is, he doesn't make the rules. 60 days is the rule, although I personally don't agree with it, especially if weather is a deciding factor of weeks of delays. Although it was very trying and difficult for me to go through two full examinations and all the preparation and mental gymnastics I had to endure to try to get my initial C.R. done within the allotted time, I appreciate doing my C.R. with him. I appreciate his professionalism, his empathy and the fact that he's known for upholding aviation standards in all aspects of the C.R. (both of them).

The waiting times for him varied, and literally depend on the time of year (season) you have your checkride scheduled. There were wait times that extended from 8 weeks—2 weeks.

He is scheduled to handle our checkrides on M, W, F at my school. He was a CFII for 4 years before joining the airlines and flying for the airlines for over 20+ years (he also retired from the airlines as a captain).

My advice to student pilots who have never taken a checkride before is this:
- expect your expectations to be derailed
- weather is a main factor in disrupting checkride scheduling. Expect and prepare for it.
- focus on what you can control as a student: improving your own skill and knowledge as you wait
- patience is key
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Tai, can you share the contacts of your DPE? Your school provided students with DPE, right?
 
Again
dpe.flights said:
Professional. We`ve faced that problem too and decided to study it in more detail in order to find possible solutions. Developed the forum for DPE themes: https://dpe.flights/ and now working on gaining a community (https://www.linkedin.com/company/dpe-rating-selecting-team/) of pilots who are ready to share their experience.
Planning to create a platform that will become a reliable assistant for all pilots seeking professional growth and development. We want to provide them with the opportunity to find experienced and qualified DPEs by the required date without long waiting and exhausting searches.
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Who is "we", again?

You might get more responses if you were a bit less opaque.
 
Are you starting a business, like an “Angie’s List” for DPEs?
 
MauleSkinner said:
Not true.
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My understanding is it is partially true, I seem to recall they need to schedule the checkride with the FAA at least 24 hrs in advance. And is applicant specific so the DPE can't call another applicant and say hey I just had a cancellation do you want to do yours tomorrow morning. That used to happen quite a bit.

The reason is the issue the FAA had with few Rogue DPE's, aka Checkride for sale, pay our money you get a rating.
Now the FAA needs to know when are where each checkride is occurring so they can randomly drop in and sit in on and observe a checkride. I have had them do this for a couple checkrides for applicants I have sent.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
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brcase said:
My understanding is it is partially true, I seem to recall they need to schedule the checkride with the FAA at least 24 hrs in advance. And is applicant specific so the DPE can't call another applicant and say hey I just had a cancellation do you want to do yours tomorrow morning. That used to happen quite a bit.

The reason is the issue the FAA had with few Rogue DPE's, aka Checkride for sale, pay our money you get a rating.
Now the FAA needs to know when are where each checkride is occurring so they can randomly drop in and sit in on and observe a checkride. I have had them do this for a couple checkrides for applicants I have sent.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
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An examiner needs to log into the Designee Management web site and request approval to conduct a checkride, which as you indicated, normally should happen at least 24 hours in advance so the FAA can observe if desired. Once you’ve got a few checkrides under your belt, that approval should be automatic (instantaneous) unless the examiner has issues with paperwork. In my part of the industry, the FAA doesn’t have any issues with last-minute changes. I’m not a “DPE,” but I can’t imagine an inspector would have any issues “randomly” showing up for Bob’s checkride, but ending up observing Sue’s because Bob was sick. @tonycondon could probably provide the straight poop on that.
 
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Tai said:
It is a rare occasion that our students pass the practical portion with him initially
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This sounds like a CFI problem, or a at least a CFI/DPE relationship problem. Which might be the CFI's the DPE or both being the issue.
it sounds like the CFI's need to try to make a real effort to spend some time working with the DPE to understand what the problem area's are.
if that isn't working, talk to the local FSDO, don't need or want to throw the DPE under the bus. Just ask for some training/understanding on how to do better. Our FSDO is sponsoring a CFI/DPE workshop next week for CFI's to sit down with the local DPE's and discuss problem areas. They tend to do one of these workshops every year.

Remember the CFI is certifying that the applicant meets the requirements before sending them to the DPE so if applicants are being sent to the DPE that aren't meeting the requirements that it is really on the CFI. The CFI should be figuring out what they are not teaching that the DPE thinks they should be.

Based on the renewal options for a CFI it can be inferred the CFI's are expected to have at least an 80% pass rate.

I will admit the DPE I use the most is awesome. He is known for being strict but fair.
I usually fly with him once a year or so. I also sit down and do ground sessions with him a couple times a year, often this is just having lunch with him. He always gives me tips about things he sees on checkrides and things he likes and doesn't like.
I have renewed my CFI with him a few times and he has never charged me to do so. I always learn a lot from him when doing so. FYI in my case this is an awesome and often the easiest way to renew of CFI certificate.
When an applicant fails (it does happen occasionally) I always debrief with the examiner and make sure I understand where the applicant had issues, so I can emphasize that area to future applicants.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
MauleSkinner said:
I’m

An examiner needs to log into the Designee Management web site and request approval to conduct a checkride, which as you indicated, normally should happen at least 24 hours in advance so the FAA can observe if desired. Once you’ve got a few checkrides under your belt, that approval should be automatic (instantaneous) unless the examiner has issues with paperwork. In my part of the industry, the FAA doesn’t have any issues with last-minute changes. I’m not a “DPE,” but I can’t imagine an inspector would have any issues “randomly” showing up for Bob’s checkride, but ending up observing Sue’s because Bob was sick. @tonycondon could probably provide the straight poop on that
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My inspector doesn't mind the Bob/Sue situation you describe.

I could see how someone reading the guidance strictly would interpret it the way Brian describes.
 
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