Long IFR XC Question

[LowHrsMan]

61.65 says in part:

(ii) Instrument flight training on cross country flight procedures, including one cross country flight in an airplane with an authorized instructor, that is performed under instrument flight rules, when a flight plan has been filed with an air traffic control facility, and that involves—

(A) A flight of 250 nautical miles along airways or by directed routing from an air traffic control facility;

(B) An instrument approach at each airport; and

(C) Three different kinds of approaches with the use of navigation systems.

The airport I fly out of (KVUO) has only 1 IAP and is seldom used due proximity to KPDX. Think 30 min+ holds at BTG waiting approach clearance and you get the idea. So I'm thinking of flying to 4 airports and doing an IAP at 3 of them: KVUO - KOLM - KAST - KSLE - KVUO. That's 274 NM total, so it meets the 250 nm requirement. However (b) reads "An instrument approach at *each* airport. Would this flight still qualify for my long XC? I would think yes, because what if my home airport had no IAPs? Then doing an IAP at *each* airport would be impossible.

LHM

 

[dmspilot]

Land at PDX, or file and fly a more circuitous route to stretch the distance of the first 3 legs and drop the last leg?

 

[luvflyin]

61.65 says in part:



The airport I fly out of (KVUO) has only 1 IAP and is seldom used due proximity to KPDX. Think 30 min+ holds at BTG waiting approach clearance and you get the idea. So I'm thinking of flying to 4 airports and doing an IAP at 3 of them: KVUO - KOLM - KAST - KSLE - KVUO. That's 274 NM total, so it meets the 250 nm requirement. However (b) reads "An instrument approach at *each* airport. Would this flight still qualify for my long XC? I would think yes, because what if my home airport had no IAPs? Then doing an IAP at *each* airport would be impossible.

LHM

61.65 says in part:



The airport I fly out of (KVUO) has only 1 IAP and is seldom used due proximity to KPDX. Think 30 min+ holds at BTG waiting approach clearance and you get the idea. So I'm thinking of flying to 4 airports and doing an IAP at 3 of them: KVUO - KOLM - KAST - KSLE - KVUO. That's 274 NM total, so it meets the 250 nm requirement. However (b) reads "An instrument approach at *each* airport. Would this flight still qualify for my long XC? I would think yes, because what if my home airport had no IAPs? Then doing an IAP at *each* airport would be impossible.

LHM

The airports don’t have to be ‘as the crow flies’ from each other. By the time you are done at SLE, having flown Approaches at OLM, AST and SLE you will have flown ‘250 nautical miles along airways or by directed routing from an air traffic control facility.’ Now you can just go home to VUO VFR. Or leave the plane at SLE and call an Uber, or whatever.

 

[LowHrsMan]

Land at PDX, or file and fly a more circuitous route to stretch the distance of the first 3 legs and drop the last leg?

I like that idea. Make the 3 legs come out to more than 250 nm and problem solved. Kinda obvious when I say it out loud.

 

[LowHrsMan]

The airports don’t have to be ‘as the crow flies’ from each other. By the time you are done at SLE, having flown Approaches at OLM, AST and SLE you will have flown ‘250 nautical miles along airways or by directed routing from an air traffic control facility.’ Now you can just go home to VUO VFR. Or leave the plane at SLE and call an Uber, or whatever.

No doubt you're correct, but the approach legs won't in my log book. I thought it best to have the 'as the crow flies' distances that foreflight spits out total more than 250 nm to avoid any argument with the DPE.

 

[luvflyin]

No doubt you're correct, but the approach legs won't in my log book. I thought it best to have the 'as the crow flies' distances that foreflight spits out total more than 250 nm to avoid any argument with the DPE.

If ya wanna stick with ‘as the crow flies’, then the ‘more circuitous route’ in your post #4 above replying to post #2 doesn’t work. If pointing the DPE to the rules in FAR 61 turns into an argument, then I guess you’ll just have to find a competent DPE.

 

[RussR]

Your proposed XC does not meet the letter of law with respect to the "approach at each airport" clause. Yes, it certainly meets the intent of the regulation, but we have a bunch of DPEs out there that have lost any sense of perspective on the intent of the rules. So either run it by the DPE you will be using, or to play it safe, since maybe you don't know who you're going to get, just have a "repositioning" leg logged separately and make sure you do approaches at 3, and only 3 airports, and those are the only airports on that line in your log book.

Yes it's dumb. Fly a 1000 mile XC with 10 approaches at 10 airports and some DPE somewhere will say that 10 is not 3, so it doesn't count.

 

[LowHrsMan]

If ya wanna stick with ‘as the crow flies’, then the ‘more circuitous route’ in your post #4 above replying to post #2 doesn’t work. If pointing the DPE to the rules in FAR 61 turns into an argument, then I guess you’ll just have to find a competent DPE.

Not sure why not or where you're going with that.

My current thought: KVUO - KTIW - KAST - KUAO. That's 3 approaches and 257 nm as the crow flies (and with the approaches, the actual distance flown will be even more). Then KUAO to home (KVUO) leg could even be flown VFR and logged as a repositioning flight, since I'd have met the 61.65 requirements after finishing the approach at KUAO.

 

[LowHrsMan]

Yes it's dumb. Fly a 1000 mile XC with 10 approaches at 10 airports and some DPE somewhere will say that 10 is not 3, so it doesn't count.

Dumb approaching insane. Has that ever really happened?

 

[MackMooney]

DPE's aren't crazy, if you land at 4 airports and do approaches at 3, you're good. also, you can log the flights however the heck you want, so don't log the last leg if you really worry about it

 

[sarangan]

61.65 says in part:



The airport I fly out of (KVUO) has only 1 IAP and is seldom used due proximity to KPDX. Think 30 min+ holds at BTG waiting approach clearance and you get the idea. So I'm thinking of flying to 4 airports and doing an IAP at 3 of them: KVUO - KOLM - KAST - KSLE - KVUO. That's 274 NM total, so it meets the 250 nm requirement. However (b) reads "An instrument approach at *each* airport. Would this flight still qualify for my long XC? I would think yes, because what if my home airport had no IAPs? Then doing an IAP at *each* airport would be impossible.

LHM

Is PDX really that busy or difficult to operate into? I have done long XC flights with students even into primary class B airports without any issues.

In any case, why make it more complicated than necessary? I would fly to a nearby airport and call that the starting point. HLB is only about 13 miles away.

 

[luvflyin]

Paging @Ryan F.

 

[M20K]

If shooting an approach into KVUO isn't really an option, how about something like this... KVUO KYKM KCLS KSPB (261nm), land at KSPB and log that as your flight to meet the requirement. Then make the short hop back to KVUO as a separate flight.

 

[Clip4]

Your proposed XC does not meet the letter of law with respect to the "approach at each airport" clause. Yes, it certainly meets the intent of the regulation, but we have a bunch of DPEs out there that have lost any sense of perspective on the intent of the rules. So either run it by the DPE you will be using, or to play it safe, since maybe you don't know who you're going to get, just have a "repositioning" leg logged separately and make sure you do approaches at 3, and only 3 airports, and those are the only airports on that line in your log book.

Yes it's dumb. Fly a 1000 mile XC with 10 approaches at 10 airports and some DPE somewhere will say that 10 is not 3, so it doesn't count.

I ask this idiot DPE. So if a private student has 3.2 hours of night and 12 night takeoffs and landings that doesn’t count. Do they have to change the logbook entries and not count .2 and 2 takeoffs and landings? Regulations are minimums.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Your proposed XC does not meet the letter of law with respect to the "approach at each airport" clause. Yes, it certainly meets the intent of the regulation, but we have a bunch of DPEs out there that have lost any sense of perspective on the intent of the rules. So either run it by the DPE you will be using, or to play it safe, since maybe you don't know who you're going to get, just have a "repositioning" leg logged separately and make sure you do approaches at 3, and only 3 airports, and those are the only airports on that line in your log book.

Yes it's dumb. Fly a 1000 mile XC with 10 approaches at 10 airports and some DPE somewhere will say that 10 is not 3, so it doesn't count.

I’m on the same page. Individual DPEs aside, I never saw much reason to avoid creating a point to point route meeting the requirement and logging it cleanly. The instrument cross country is artificial enough without creating a circuitous route you wouldn’t fly for real and then refusing an ATC directed shortcut because it would screw up your calculations.

Looking quickly at the route, if I were worried about a facility refusing an instrument approach to a aircraft in an IFR flight plan, I’d probably treat KVUO KOLM as a repositioning leg and replace KSLE with KCVO.

@LowHrsMan, what does your CFII suggest? It’s a dual flight after all and he or she is the one who is going to certify you met the requirements.

 

[luvflyin]

If shooting an approach into KVUO isn't really an option, how about something like this... KVUO KYKM KCLS KSPB (261nm), land at KSPB and log that as your flight to meet the requirement. Then make the short hop back to KVUO as a separate flight.

Would he have to land a SBP? The reg says “An instrument approach at each airport;” it does not say to full stop.

 

[Ryan F.]

We're discussing 14 CFR 61.65(d)(2)(ii):

(ii) Instrument flight training on cross country flight procedures, including one cross country flight in an airplane with an authorized instructor, that is performed under instrument flight rules, when a flight plan has been filed with an air traffic control facility, and that involves—​

​

(A) A flight of 250 nautical miles along airways or by directed routing from an air traffic control facility;​

(B) An instrument approach at each airport; and​

(C) Three different kinds of approaches with the use of navigation systems.​

​

For the purposes of simplicity, I recommend (but do not require) that the 250nm flight involve straight (okay, great-circle) segments totaling 250nm or more. This is to avoid confusion if the applicant is unable to demonstrate that the airway route or "directed routing" from ATC exceeded 250nm. If you're relying on the latter, be sure to log it in such a way as to demonstrate the total distance exceeds 250nm.

The rub here is that you need a combination of 250nm+, three approaches and an instrument approach at each airport. If you miss on any one of these requirements, it won't be be satisfactory from an aeronautical experience perspective. So although I understand your thought process here, the routing you proposed (KVUO - KOLM - KAST - KSLE - KVUO) with no approach at KVUO wouldn't be acceptable. Your qualifying segments would only be KVUO - KOLM - KAST - KSLE and that totals 228nm. Make sense?

That said, there's an easy solution here. Find 3 consecutive segments that total 250nm or more (direct or via routing) and do a "different kind of approach" at each one, using navigation systems - per the regulation. There's your flight - and you'll be in good shape. I think Mark Kolber had a good idea for you with his suggestion on a possible route. (Be careful, swapping in KCVO for KSLE totals 248nm so you'd have to show the routing exceeded 250nm.)

 

[luvflyin]

We're discussing 14 CFR 61.65(d)(2)(ii):

(ii) Instrument flight training on cross country flight procedures, including one cross country flight in an airplane with an authorized instructor, that is performed under instrument flight rules, when a flight plan has been filed with an air traffic control facility, and that involves—​

​

(A) A flight of 250 nautical miles along airways or by directed routing from an air traffic control facility;​

(B) An instrument approach at each airport; and​

(C) Three different kinds of approaches with the use of navigation systems.​

​

For the purposes of simplicity, I recommend (but do not require) that the 250nm flight involve straight (okay, great-circle) segments totaling 250nm or more. This is to avoid confusion if the applicant is unable to demonstrate that the airway route or "directed routing" from ATC exceeded 250nm. If you're relying on the latter, be sure to log it in such a way as to demonstrate the total distance exceeds 250nm.

The rub here is that you need a combination of 250nm+, three approaches and an instrument approach at each airport. If you miss on any one of these requirements, it won't be be satisfactory from an aeronautical experience perspective. So although I understand your thought process here, the routing you proposed (KVUO - KOLM - KAST - KSLE - KVUO) with no approach at KVUO wouldn't be acceptable. Your qualifying segments would only be KVUO - KOLM - KAST - KSLE and that totals 228nm. Make sense?

That said, there's an easy solution here. Find 3 consecutive segments that total 250nm or more (direct or via routing) and do a "different kind of approach" at each one, using navigation systems - per the regulation. There's your flight - and you'll be in good shape. I think Mark Kolber had a good idea for you with his suggestion on a possible route. (Be careful, swapping in KCVO for KSLE totals 248nm so you'd have to show the routing exceeded 250nm.)

There’s a fallacy in even considering straight line distance between airports. That is because you have to do Approaches at them. You have to get lined up to do them. There are Initial and Intermediate segments. And then the Missed Approach, or Departure Procedure if you did a full stop at each. And don’t forget the DP to just get out of VUO. I’ve been playing with it. I’m having trouble finding a way to do VUO OLM AST SLE in less than 250 miles.

 

[Ryan F.]

There’s a fallacy in even considering straight line distance between airports. That is because you have to do Approaches at them. You have to get lined up to do them. There are Initial and Intermediate segments. And then the Missed Approach, or Departure Procedure if you did a full stop at each. And don’t forget the DP to just get out of VUO. I’ve been playing with it. I’m having trouble finding a way to do VUO OLM AST SLE in less than 250 miles.

Maybe, maybe not. In any case, if the applicant is able to demonstrate the routing exceeded 250nm, all is well.

 

[Pugs]

DPE's aren't crazy, if you land at 4 airports and do approaches at 3, you're good. also, you can log the flights however the heck you want, so don't log the last leg if you really worry about it

Did exactly that on my inst X/C. We were tired and the boxes had been checked. We logged the last leg but the DPE didn't care.

 

[Brad W]

The airports don’t have to be ‘as the crow flies’ from each other.

So it seems by the logic in the previous several posts, you could in theory pick airports that are very close to each other, and then plan some very long holds. I really don't think that's the intent personally, but what do I know.
A little better might be to pick to airports that are very close but pick a mid-route waypoint very far away. OK fine.
but
in my opnion, I would make a good effort to pick airports that are as the crow flies safely >250miles. That way there's no question. No need to document or prove the illogical routing. Simple. I like the baked in safety margin for clarity....

I did all of this training in the days before GPS and before digital/online maps where you can measure distances to the foot. It's been too long for me to remember for sure, but I'm pretty sure that that's the way we did it at the school where I trained.... lay the plotter on the chart and scale the straight line distance airport to airport.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Would he have to land a SBP? The reg says “An instrument approach at each airport;” it does not say to full stop.

In his example, @RussR is positing a cross country flight that logged as completed at SBP. You know, one that meets the basic definition of a flight, one "that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing," and "includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure."

There’s a fallacy in even considering straight line distance between airports.

I don't understand the fallacy. Sure, we can probably figure out a plan which will probably meet the requirement and perhaps even prove it with ADS-B tracks and the rejection of ATC offers for shortcuts, but recommendation to create a route that is 250 in total leg distances is because it is guaranteed to meet the requirement without external proof, even if the DPE is an idiot.

 

[midlifeflyer]

So it seems by the logic in the previous several posts, you could in theory pick airports that are very close to each other, and then plan some very long holds. I really don't think that's the intent personally, but what do I know.

Some people hate to fly and try to cut as many corners as they can.

 

[LowHrsMan]

Some people hate to fly and try to cut as many corners as they can.

Checked the price of av gas lately? Not everyone that loves flying is rich.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Checked the price of av gas lately? Not everyone is rich.

I have. I've also been hearing that one regardless of the current cost of fuel.

Have you seen the price of a second checkride? Bad enough if it's a substantive failure. Worse, if it happens in the first 15 minutes because your DPE thinks you didn't meet the requirements.

 

[Clip4]

Checked the price of av gas lately? Not everyone that loves flying is rich.

Well, they sure ain’t poor.