Logging time when sitting in right seat?

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by CC268, Mar 4, 2017.

  1. CC268

    CC268 Final Approach

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    Stupid question - my dad has been flying with me in the right seat (he is a Private Pilot as well) just to tag along. I am PIC in the left seat of course. Can he log any of that time?
     
  2. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

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    Only if he is the sole manipulator.
     
  3. CC268

    CC268 Final Approach

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    Interesting...so if you made a long cross country trip (lets say Phoenix to Texas) - if I flew to Texas in the right seat (PIC) I could log the time, but he couldn't. If he flew from Texas to Phoenix in the right seat (PIC) I couldn't log the time.
     
  4. CC268

    CC268 Final Approach

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    So...the only reason a CFI can log all that time tagging along with students is because they are a CFI "instructing"? Just trying to make sure I have a clear understanding of everything.
     
  5. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Yes, when the CFI is giving dual, they are the PIC, even though they may or may not be doing the actual flying.

    Technically he could log the time if he was rated appropriately. It just wouldn't be PIC unless as mentioned above, he was the sole manipulator of the controls.
     
  6. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

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    Logging time has nothing do do what seat you're sitting in.
     
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  7. Larry in TN

    Larry in TN Cleared for Takeoff

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    The pilot seat in which you are sitting has no effect on your ability to log flight time.

    See FAR 61.51.
     
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  8. MassPilot

    MassPilot Cleared for Takeoff

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    True although many rental agreements prohibit the PIC from sitting right seat.
     
  9. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    Rental agreements can have all sorts of effects on what may be done and who may do it. But they don't necessarily affect who may log. They may or they may not.

    For example:
    The rental agreement only prohibits the PIC from sitting in the right seat. You rent the airplane and are left seat. Your pilot buddy who is visiting from out of town, goes for a ride with you. Along the way, you let him fly for a while. You've never stopped acting as PIC but only he can log PIC time while he was sole manipulator.
     
  10. CC268

    CC268 Final Approach

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    Bottom line unless your a CFI you can't log any time in your logbook if you are just riding along (even if you are a Private Pilot).
     
  11. MassPilot

    MassPilot Cleared for Takeoff

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    Your example wouldn't violate the rental agreement because the acting PIC was in the left seat the whole time. What would be against the rental agreement is if the pilot in the left seat does all the flying, but they decide to make the pilot in the right seat acting PIC so they can both log PIC time.
     
  12. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    A clear understanding of who may log time in different situations comes from reading and understanding "The Universal Rule of Logging Flight Time," FAR 61.51.

    "A certificated flight instructor may log pilot in command flight time for all flight time while serving as the authorized instructor in an operation if the instructor is rated to act as pilot in command of that aircraft."

    Those are the exact words permitting a CFI to log PIC time whether or not they are acting a pilot in command of the flight..
     
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  13. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    You are correct. It wouldn't.
     
  14. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    No not true. He CAN log the time, but it just won't be PIC unless he's sole manipulator.

    If you're appropriately rated, you can log time even if you're not PIC.
     
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  15. CC268

    CC268 Final Approach

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    This makes sense. Thanks
     
  16. Salty

    Salty En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Put on a view limiting device and have him safety pilot for you and you can both log PIC. You as simulated instrument and him as safety pilot.
     
  17. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I think that would depend on the wording of the rental agreement. At my club, it includes the phrase "or otherwise operate," which might be construed to include manipulating the controls.
     
  18. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    Not in his example. At least not without violating the rental agreement. In order to log PIC, a safety pilot must be the one acting as PIC.
     
  19. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    Absolutely. There are a number of variations on the theme. Some of them are pretty unclear to the point no one knows what they really mean.

    Take your club's "or otherwise operate." Sounds like no hood work without an instructor or someone who has received a right seat signoff. After all, the FAR says "operate" includes "piloting." So being a safety pilot is not permitted, whether PIC or not.

    Edit: BTW, I've been looking at this issue ever since the BasicMed anomaly that, if you are a safety pilot acting as PIC, you can do it under BasicMed, but if you are not acting as PIC, you need a 3d Class medical.
     
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  20. TommyG

    TommyG Cleared for Takeoff

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    Rental agreements are now regulations or law, so they do not affect logging of PIC.
     
  21. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

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    What would he log it as, if not PIC?
     
  22. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    He can't log it as any useful category of time unless:

    He's the sole manipulator.
    An authorized instructor giving instruction.
    A required pilot in an operation requiring more than one pilot by regulation (notably simulated instrument flight).
    He's receiving instruction from an authorized instructor.
     
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  23. Salty

    Salty En-Route PoA Supporter

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    I was responding to the OP
     
  24. whattauser

    whattauser Pre-takeoff checklist

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    That is incorrect in his scenario. With only one required crewmember, and no CFI on board, only one pilot can log pilot time at any given moment.
     
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  25. whattauser

    whattauser Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Might make sense, but it not correct.
     
  26. whattauser

    whattauser Pre-takeoff checklist

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    He wouldn't.
     
  27. Salty

    Salty En-Route PoA Supporter

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    You can log your time watching airplanes from the ground, or birdwatching if you want. You just can't log it as PIC.
     
  28. whattauser

    whattauser Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Not as pilot time in a log compliant with 61.51.
     
  29. Salty

    Salty En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Of course not. But you can put anything you want in your log. That doesn't mean it means anything to anyone but you.
     
  30. whattauser

    whattauser Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I didn't realize that concept was relevant to the OP discussion/question.
     
  31. Salty

    Salty En-Route PoA Supporter

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    I believe it explains some of the answers above.
     
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  32. mondtster

    mondtster Pattern Altitude

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    In the case of a student pilot and a CFI, there has to be someone in the airplane that can act as PIC. The student can't so the instructor must. But even beyond primary training the instructor can log PIC for the time they're sitting in the airplane instructing. See the previously quoted regulation.

    The only way I see your dad being able to log time in your situation is if you're under the hood and he is acting as your safety pilot. Left or right seat does not matter, unless there is a limitation on the aircraft that requires the pilot to sit in a certain spot.
     
  33. ejensen

    ejensen Pattern Altitude

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  34. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    See #4 in my signature block. You can create a nice list of people who thought so whom, have had their certificates revoked.

    Change that to "you can put anything you want in your log so long as it either is or cannot be construed as FAR-loggable flight time," and we have a deal
     
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  35. CC268

    CC268 Final Approach

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    Alrighty then guess he won't log it
     
  36. SToL

    SToL Pre-Flight

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    First of all, the question you're asking falls under FAR 61.51, which incidentally only refers to;

    (a)
    (1) Training and aeronautical experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review of this part.
    (2) The aeronautical experience required for meeting the recent flight experience requirements of this part.


    It then goes on to state that it must it must be logged under one of the criteria of FAR 61.51,b,

    (b) Logbook entries. For the purposes of meeting the requirements of paragraph (a) of this section, each person must enter the following information for each flight or lesson logged:

    which includes...

    (2) Type of pilot experience or training—
    (i) Solo.
    (ii) Pilot in command.
    (iii) Second in command.
    (iv) Flight and ground training received from an authorized instructor.


    The argument is, if it's not used to meet any of the above, then you can write anything you want.

    Also, forget about left or right seat. As far as the FARs and the FAA is concerned, no one cares which seat you're in. They only care how you are logging your time. You may be required for some other reason (i.e., rental agreement, insurance, ect.) to sit in some specific seat, but this has nothing to do with how the FARs determine who can log what time.

    PJ
     
  37. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser!

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    You don't let him drive?
     
  38. Salty

    Salty En-Route PoA Supporter

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    That's fair.
     
  39. CC268

    CC268 Final Approach

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    Sometimes ;p
     
  40. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Then, strictly speaking, he can log the time when he is "manipulating" and you can't. Not that the FAA is ever going to find out...