Logging night flights

[flyingron]

Pilot time is not takeoff-to-landing time. That's the definition of time in service for maintenance. Flight time is when the aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of flight until it comes to rest after landing. In fact pilot time also includes training time from when the lesson commences.

It is not illegal to make changes to a log book. There's not even an 'official' way of making those changes. In fact, the FAA is very LIBERAL in what constitutes such records.

 

[midlifeflyer]

That's what I'm talking about. I'm not seeing even a technical requirement to log time that you're not using for anything.

§61.51 Pilot logbooks.​

(a) Training time and aeronautical experience. Each person must document and record the following time in a manner acceptable to the Administrator:
(1) Training and aeronautical experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review of this part.
(2) The aeronautical experience required for meeting the recent flight experience requirements of this part.​

[emphasis added]

All that means is that we do not have to log a flight at all unless we want to count it for something. The "technically" I'm referring to is the very next paragraph, which describes what must be included once you decide to log the flight [emphasis also added].

(b) Logbook entries. For the purposes of meeting the requirements of paragraph (a) of this section, each person must enter the following information for each flight or lesson logged:
[folowed by a list that includes]

(3) Conditions of flight -
(i) Day or night.
(ii) Actual instrument.
(iii) Simulated instrument conditions in flight, a flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training​

IOW, you don't have to log a flight unless you want it to count for something, but you decide to log a flight, certain information is required to make it a valid entry. Or, as I put in originally

While technically the amount of day or night flight time is a required entry for flights you do log

 

[Palmpilot]

Darn - So I was violating the regs all those years when I logged less night flight than I was entitled to.

My log books don't even have a column for day flight time.

 

[SkyDog58]

Hey, even Verizon customer disservice could probably figure out that
Day = Total Time - Night.

 

[Palmpilot]

Hey, even Verizon customer disservice could probably figure out that
Day = Total Time - Night.

True, but if we're technically required to log the amount of day flight, is relying on such an inference technically sufficient? And if it is, does that mean that I technically claimed more day flight than I was entitled to?

 

[Palmpilot]

All that means is that we do not have to log a flight at all unless we want to count it for something. The "technically" I'm referring to is the very next paragraph, which describes what must be included once you decide to log the flight [emphasis also added].

(b) Logbook entries. For the purposes of meeting the requirements of paragraph (a) of this section, each person must enter the following information for each flight or lesson logged:
[folowed by a list that includes]

(3) Conditions of flight -
(i) Day or night.
(ii) Actual instrument.
(iii) Simulated instrument conditions in flight, a flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training​

IOW, you don't have to log a flight unless you want it to count for something, but you decide to log a flight, certain information is required to make it a valid entry. Or, as I put in originally

Couldn't the limitation of scope contained in "For the purposes of meeting the requirements of paragraph (a)" apply to the entry of an individual item of information just as well as to the entire entry of a flight? Or does that make too much sense to be a legally-defensible reading of it?

 

[danhagan]

Not sure if the OP was looking for this response, he's received all the others:

On my logs (might be older log book), I circle all take offs and landings which counted towards night flight as well. I fly a bunch at night for a recreational pilot and think I am near 100+ out of 600 hours. Helps if you live in the desert and want to avoid 105*+ daytime flying ... and you don't have to worry about one hour after dark out here, because you really don't want to fly until about 3 hours after dark for the temps to begin dropping decently.

 

[MAKG1]

If the time is not used to qualify for a certificate, rating or privilege, I thought it wasn't a required entry.

It might look kinda funny if you logged night landings, but no night flight time, when establishing night currency.

Of course, no one will be looking aside from a DPE or accident investigator.

 

[Palmpilot]

It might look kinda funny if you logged night landings, but no night flight time, when establishing night currency...

True, but the reason I was discussing this was my practice of logging night flight time using the night takeoff and landing rules. That did result in my logging some night flight time, just not as much as I was entitled to.

 

[Hank S]

True, but the reason I was discussing this was my practice of logging night flight time using the night takeoff and landing rules. That did result in my logging some night flight time, just not as much as I was entitled to.

Doesn't bother me at all to log part of a flight as Night. Also, my logbook has two columns for Landings (Day & Night), but none for Takeoffs, as they are automatically one per landing unless possibly when flying with someone else. Sunsets aloft are often quite beautiful, more so than when seen from the ground.

 

[Palmpilot]

Doesn't bother me at all to log part of a flight as Night.

Me neither.

Also, my logbook has two columns for Landings (Day & Night), but none for Takeoffs, as they are automatically one per landing unless possibly when flying with someone else.

My logbook is the same as yours in that regard, but before I started exercising sport pilot privileges, it was not unusual to have flights where the landing qualified as night, but the takeoff did not. Consequently, my practice was to log night takeoffs in the remarks column.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Darn - So I was violating the regs all those years when I logged less night flight than I was entitled to.

My log books don't even have a column for day flight time.

I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[midlifeflyer]

My logbook is the same as yours in that regard, but before I started exercising sport pilot privileges, it was not unusual to have flights where the landing qualified as night, but the the takeoff did not. Consequently, my practice was to log takeoffs in the remarks column.

My practice is, and continues to be, to only log night takeoffs and landings in pairs and place them in the landing column not takeoff column).

IOW, if I do a flight in which I do the takeoff and someone else does the landing (or vice versa) I don't log the takeoff or landing at all. If I do a daytime takeoff and a night landing, I just log it as a regular takeoff and landing. Makes the bookeeping easier.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Couldn't the limitation of scope contained in "For the purposes of meeting the requirements of paragraph (a)" apply to the entry of an individual item of information just as well as to the entire entry of a flight? Or does that make too much sense to be a legally-defensible reading of it?

Any reading of it is "legally defensible." I was looking at it as a series of English statements. Bottom line is no one cares.

 

[azure]

My practice is, and continues to be, to only log night takeoffs and landings in pairs and place them in the landing column not takeoff column).

That's a good idea, wish I'd thought of it. I've been logging night landings without a night takeoff as night, but counting for currency only those night landings where I do a string of three TOLs and then logging it as "night current". Your way makes it easier to just log the TOLs that will count and do the count-back to determine currency.

I'll probably switch to your method as I really am not too keen on night currency runs at KMPV. In addition to terrain issues, the place is just totally, creepy deserted at night. Not a great place to be in case of an emergency. When I land at night all I want to do is tie the plane down and go home.

 

[Palmpilot]

I wouldn't worry about it.

Of course not, but since you mentioned that logging day and night flight time are technically required, I figured I might as well get some intellectual exercise out of it.

 

[write-stuff]

updated

 

[Greg Bockelman]

I have a lot of logged night time where I could log neither takeoff nor landing.

 

[mjburian]

My reading of 61.57(b) would make the "currency required" part of that image incorrect. My reading is that logging and currency required are both 1 hour after sunset until 1 hour before sunrise.

Is my interpretation incorrect?

 

[RotorDude]

My reading of 61.57(b) would make the "currency required" part of that image incorrect. My reading is that logging and currency required are both 1 hour after sunset until 1 hour before sunrise.

Is my interpretation incorrect?

I think you are correct. In addition, currency is only required to carry passengers, not solo, so that's misleading too.

 

[write-stuff]

Good catch. Yes, I reread the reg and agree. Currency (yes, to carry passengers) would be between 1 hour after sunset until 1 hour before sunrise.

 

[Palmpilot]

My reading of 61.57(b) would make the "currency required" part of that image incorrect. My reading is that logging and currency required are both 1 hour after sunset until 1 hour before sunrise.

Is my interpretation incorrect?

It depends on what you're logging.

When you're logging night flight time, I think you're supposed to use the FAA definition of "night," which is in 14 CFR 1.1:

Night means the time between the end of evening civil twilight and the beginning of morning civil twilight, as published in the Air Almanac, converted to local time.​

When you're logging night takeoffs and landings, I think you're supposed to use the times specified in 14 CFR 61.57(b):

(b) Night takeoff and landing experience. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise, unless within the preceding 90 days that person has made at least three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise, and—

(i) That person acted as sole manipulator of the flight controls; and

(ii) The required takeoffs and landings were performed in an aircraft of the same category, class, and type (if a type rating is required).

(2) The takeoffs and landings required by paragraph (b)(1) of this section may be accomplished in a flight simulator that is—

(i) Approved by the Administrator for takeoffs and landings, if the visual system is adjusted to represent the period described in paragraph (b)(1) of this section; and

(ii) Used in accordance with an approved course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.
​

Note that 14 CFR 61.1, which is the definitions section of Part 61, has no definition of "night."

​

[Edit: Oops, never mind! I overlooked the problem in the original version of the graphic. ]

 

[RotorDude]

It depends on what you're logging.

When you're logging night flight time, I think you're supposed to use the FAA definition of "night," which is in 14 CFR 1.1:

Night means the time between the end of evening civil twilight and the beginning of morning civil twilight, as published in the Air Almanac, converted to local time.​

When you're logging night takeoffs and landings, I think you're supposed to use the times specified in 14 CFR 61.57(b):

(b) Night takeoff and landing experience. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise, unless within the preceding 90 days that person has made at least three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise, and—

(i) That person acted as sole manipulator of the flight controls; and

(ii) The required takeoffs and landings were performed in an aircraft of the same category, class, and type (if a type rating is required).

(2) The takeoffs and landings required by paragraph (b)(1) of this section may be accomplished in a flight simulator that is—

(i) Approved by the Administrator for takeoffs and landings, if the visual system is adjusted to represent the period described in paragraph (b)(1) of this section; and

(ii) Used in accordance with an approved course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.
​

Note that 14 CFR 61.1, which is the definitions section of Part 61, has no definition of "night."

​

I disagree. From your own quote of the regs:

(1) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise

That applies to acting as PIC, not logging, and is also independent of takeoff and landings.

 

[mjburian]

It depends on what you're logging.

Sorry, that was poor wording on my part. I meant specifically logging night takeoffs and landings for passenger currency.

3 nights:

Sunset to sunrise
- Night equipment and lights

End of Evening Civil twilight to Beginning of Morning Civil Twilight
- You can log night time

1 hour after sunset to 1 hour before sunrise
- Required night currency to act as PIC with passengers and to log night takeoffs and landings for currency to carry passengers as PIC at this time

 

[mjburian]

I disagree. From your own quote of the regs:

(1) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise

That applies to acting as PIC, not logging, and is also independent of takeoff and landings.

Right, so a friend and I could go flying. He's night current and I'm not. As long as he agrees to be acting PIC, I can fly the entire flight, including the takeoffs/landings required for me to become night current. At which point, if I wanted, I could take over as acting PIC.

I wonder why the FAA hasn't resolved the difference between logging night time and logging night takeoffs and landings for currency? Seems like an unnecessarily confusing situation. Or maybe I just haven't heard the perfectly valid/sane reason?

 

[Palmpilot]

I disagree. From your own quote of the regs:

(1) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise

That applies to acting as PIC, not logging, and is also independent of takeoff and landings.

How can it be independent of takeoffs and landings when the very next part of the sentence you quoted says "unless within the preceding 90 days that person has made at least three takeoffs and three landings" etc?

 

[Palmpilot]

Right, so a friend and I could go flying. He's night current and I'm not. As long as he agrees to be acting PIC, I can fly the entire flight, including the takeoffs/landings required for me to become night current. At which point, if I wanted, I could take over as acting PIC.

Sounds right to me.

 

[mjburian]

How can it be independent of takeoffs and landings when the very next part of the sentence you quoted says "unless within the preceding 90 days that person has made at least three takeoffs and three landings" etc?

I think he was pointing out the "acting as PIC" part. You can control the airplane all you want (and log it as sole manipulator)... you just can't act as PIC with passengers unless you're night current.

 

[Palmpilot]

I think he was pointing out the "acting as PIC" part. You can control the airplane all you want... you just can't act as PIC with passengers unless you're night current.

True, but if that's all he meant to say, then I'm not clear on what it is that he thinks we disagree on.

 

[RotorDude]

True, but if that's all he meant to say, then I'm not clear on what it is that he thinks we disagree on.

Correct, that's what I meant to say, the restriction is to act as PIC at night for all operations, not to land or takeoff specifically.
And this means that your ability to fly as PIC at night is restricted only between 1 hr after sunset and 1 hr before sunrise, not other markers. If we agree on this point, there is no disagreement.

 

[Palmpilot]

Correct, that's what I meant to say, the restriction is to act as PIC at night for all operations, not to land or takeoff specifically.

I would amend that to "the restriction is to act as PIC at night for all passenger-carrying operations, not to land or takeoff specifically."

And this means that your ability to fly as PIC at night is restricted only between 1 hr after sunset and 1 hr before sunrise, not other markers. If we agree on this point, there is no disagreement.

Yes, I agree with that. Civil twilight affects the logging of night flight time, but not the logging of night takeoffs and landings. The latter, not the former, is what you need to document PIC currency for passenger-carrying night flights.

 

[mjburian]

updated

Just a heads up... You dropped "currency required" from the sunset to sunrise section, but didn't add it to the 1 hour after sunset to 1 hour before sunrise.

 

[luvflyin]

...... The only time it gets tricky is during east-west flights when the civil twilight times can shift by 15 minutes or more during a flight leg. I've been known to try to figure it out from airports along my route of flight, but I'm a bit anal about things like that and this is really overkill.

Agree.

East-west reminds me of probably the best sunset I've ever seen and it lasted for what seemed like well over an hour. Here's a trivia question. Where is the "widest" piece of time zone?

 

[Palmpilot]

Just a heads up... You dropped "currency required" from the sunset to sunrise section, but didn't add it to the 1 hour after sunset to 1 hour before sunrise.

Aha! When I saw this post, I went back and compared the edited graphic to the version you originally quoted. Now I see what you were talking about!

 

[Palmpilot]

...The only time it gets tricky is during east-west flights when the civil twilight times can shift by 15 minutes or more during a flight leg. I've been known to try to figure it out from airports along my route of flight, but I'm a bit anal about things like that and this is really overkill.

Assuming one is keeping track in Zulu time, I'm trying to figure out whether the airplane would have to travel faster than the Earth's surface for the above to affect logging.

 

[Wheels]

Here's a trivia question. Where is the "widest" piece of time zone?

Geographically the widest part of any time zone would be at the equator where the longitude lines are the farthest apart. For observed time zones it would probably be China which is roughly the size of the US but only observes one time zone for the entire country.

 

[denverpilot]

updated

I like the explosions. It's like a Segall movie.