Logging High Performance/Complex Time without an endorsement

hish747

hish747

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Hish747
Hi All,
Not strictly a training question but I'm hoping instructors would be able to help with FAR interpretation.

The question is can an ASEL rated pilot log time at the controls of a (non instructor) friend's Complex/HP aircraft like a Debonair without having a HP/Complex endorsement?

If so can the time be logged as PIC or only SIC?

My reading of the regs indicate that all is required is the appropriate ASEL rating and that the endorsement would only be needed for the pilot to fly solo as PIC in the aircraft. Thoughts?
Thanks,
Hish
 
Yes you can log PIC time any time you are the sole manipulator of the controls.
 
jordane93 said:
Yes you can log PIC time any time you are the sole manipulator of the controls.
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Don't want to turn this into a safety pilot pic debate...

Can I fly under the hood with another PP who does not have a complex endorsement? We may both log pic... I have complex/hp, but no instrument rating.
 
jordane93 said:
Yes you can log PIC time any time you are the sole manipulator of the controls.
Click to expand...

...and rated in category and class. In other words, you can't log PIC (or anything for that matter) in a twin engine Piper if you don't have AIRPLANE and MULTI ENGINE on your pilot certificate.

Whether or not you have an endorsement is irrelevant. See 14 CFR 61.51(e)(i). The endorsement is just required for acting as PIC, per §61.31(f).
 
Mike5250 said:
Don't want to turn this into a safety pilot pic debate...

Can I fly under the hood with another PP who does not have a complex endorsement? We may both log pic... I have complex/hp, but no instrument rating.
Click to expand...

I am assuming you're doing this VFR. He can be a safety pilot, but he cannot act as PIC, so while you're under the hood, you much be able to act as PIC. Since he cannot act as PIC, and is not manipulating the controls, but is a required crewmember, that leaves him to log SIC. If you are doing it IFR, it is illegal if the plane is more than 200 HP.
 
Not to get out of the way of playing hypotheticals and FAR lawyering, but if you already have access to a HP/complex why not just get the sign off, it's probably the easiest sign off out there, if you already can fly the plane, a couple laps around the patch should be all it takes to get some new ink in the back of your logbook. :dunno:
 
James331 said:
Not to get out of the way of playing hypotheticals and FAR lawyering, but if you already have access to a HP/complex why not just get the sign off, it's probably the easiest sign off out there, if you already can fly the plane, a couple laps around the patch should be all it takes to get some new ink in the back of your logbook. :dunno:
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:yeahthat: If you're capable of flying it, take an instructor for a short ride and log the endorsement. Done deal.
 
Somedudeintn said:
Not an instructor, but I did teach my instructor this when he was not going to give me PIC time for my first lesson in a complex airplane. I showed him the FAA document and he happily marked the time as PIC and forwarded the doc on to the Chief Flight Instructor at the school.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...2009/herman - (2009) legal interpretation.pdf
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Interesting turn of phrase.

Endorsement of instruction given is something a CFI gives. PIC time is yours if it qualifies under 61.51.

Mine didn't "give" me the PIC time either. It was in the early 1990s, well before the FAA interpretations became more broadly known. When I first learned the rule, years later, I simply went back and updated those entries.
 
LDJones said:
James331 said:
Not to get out of the way of playing hypotheticals and FAR lawyering, but if you already have access to a HP/complex why not just get the sign off, it's probably the easiest sign off out there, if you already can fly the plane, a couple laps around the patch should be all it takes to get some new ink in the back of your logbook. :dunno:
Click to expand...

:yeahthat: If you're capable of flying it, take an instructor for a short ride and log the endorsement. Done deal.
Click to expand...

:yeahthat::yeahthat:

K.I.S.S.
 
I don't know that there is a point in tracking high performance time, but complex time (e.g. retracts) is useful for insurance purposes. I used to track them, but I don't anymore.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I don't know that there is a point in tracking high performance time, but complex time (e.g. retracts) is useful for insurance purposes. I used to track them, but I don't anymore.
Click to expand...

Some employers flying high performance airplanes(skydive operations flying 182/206 comes to mind) want to know how much high performance time people have. Also some insurance companies want to know it as well.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I don't know that there is a point in tracking high performance time, but complex time (e.g. retracts) is useful for insurance purposes. I used to track them, but I don't anymore.
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As Gucci said, many of the non-FAA things we track are based on insurance and checkout requirements. And good eLogbooks make it very easy since separate line entries for that information are not required.
 
Gucci Pilot said:
Some employers flying high performance airplanes(skydive operations flying 182/206 comes to mind) want to know how much high performance time people have. Also some insurance companies want to know it as well.
Click to expand...

midlifeflyer said:
As Gucci said, many of the non-FAA things we track are based on insurance and checkout requirements. And good eLogbooks make it very easy since separate line entries for that information are not required.
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I get tracking complex time, although neither one of my previous insurers cared about it per se, rather just a minimum time in type waived by a minimum dual received. My flight school on the other hand wouldn't rent me a Debonair until I had logged a minimum number of retract hours due to their insurance. Which, by the way I was able to meet as I had time in a 172RG during PPL training. I can see how some employers might want to know complex and high performance though.
 
Brad Z said:
I am assuming you're doing this VFR. He can be a safety pilot, but he cannot act as PIC, so while you're under the hood, you much be able to act as PIC. Since he cannot act as PIC, and is not manipulating the controls, but is a required crewmember, that leaves him to log SIC. If you are doing it IFR, it is illegal if the plane is more than 200 HP.
Click to expand...

Explain why a high performance airplane makes anything illegal. Assuming two pilots aboard, one a safety pilot without an instrument rating or hp endorsement, the other pilot the acting PIC with HP and current for instrument flight, whenever in actual instrument conditions, no safety pilot required and he would log nothing while the flying pilot logs everything (PIC, actual, etc). If VMC, safety pilot is required crew if PIC is under hood and would log SIC. If safety pilot had no HP endorsement but was current instrument pilot, he could not act as PIC in acual for a non-current instrument pilot in HP aircraft:without the endorsement.
 
Witmo said:
If safety pilot had no HP endorsement but was current instrument pilot, he could not act as PIC in acual for a non-current instrument pilot in HP aircraft:without the endorsement.
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He couldn't act as PIC period without the endorsement. The one acting as PIC has to have the endorsement.
 
Yes, but a safety pilot need not be the one acting as PIC so he doesn''t need the endorsement. Whoever acts as PIC needs to have it. The post I replied to just said not having a HP endorsement would be illegal without being specific.
 
Mike5250 said:
Don't want to turn this into a safety pilot pic debate...

Can I fly under the hood with another PP who does not have a complex endorsement? We may both log pic... I have complex/hp, but no instrument rating.
Click to expand...

Brad Z said:
I am assuming you're doing this VFR. He can be a safety pilot, but he cannot act as PIC, so while you're under the hood, you much be able to act as PIC. Since he cannot act as PIC, and is not manipulating the controls, but is a required crewmember, that leaves him to log SIC. If you are doing it IFR, it is illegal if the plane is more than 200 HP.
Click to expand...

Witmo said:
Explain why a high performance airplane makes anything illegal. Assuming two pilots aboard, one a safety pilot without an instrument rating or hp endorsement, the other pilot the acting PIC with HP and current for instrument flight, whenever in actual instrument conditions, no safety pilot required and he would log nothing while the flying pilot logs everything (PIC, actual, etc). If VMC, safety pilot is required crew if PIC is under hood and would log SIC. If safety pilot had no HP endorsement but was current instrument pilot, he could not act as PIC in acual for a non-current instrument pilot in HP aircraft:without the endorsement.
Click to expand...

I misread the details in Mike5250's question. Replace high performance with complex in my response. Mike has HP/complex endorsements, but no instrument rating. His buddy has an instrument rating, but no complex endorsement. If they were doing simulated instrument flying with a safety pilot under IFR (but not in IMC), Mike cannot act as PIC. Since mike's friend does not have a complex endorsement, he cannot act as PIC if the plane is considered complex.
 
Unless I am missing something, that operating isn't legal even under IFR in VMC. Wouldn't the actual PIC have to have all the endorsements to act as PIC in that situation?
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Unless I am missing something, that operating isn't legal even under IFR in VMC. Wouldn't the actual PIC have to have all the endorsements to act as PIC in that situation?
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Correct. That's the point I'm trying to make.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Unless I am missing something, that operating isn't legal even under IFR in VMC. Wouldn't the actual PIC have to have all the endorsements to act as PIC in that situation?
Click to expand...
I lost track of the scenario's twists and turns early on so I can't comment on it.

But if you are saying that, in order to act as PIC, a pilot needs to meet all aircraft and operational requirements to act as PIC, yes. Of course.
 
I don't need logged time for anything (not that I have a lot of hours) except for possible insurance reasons. So if I am with a friend and they let me try out their plane or in a p!ane I don't have an endorsement or rating for I don't put it in my log book.

I do keeps separate spreadsheet of interesting flights. First time flying a twin, some right seat time in a C47, ...
 
midlifeflyer said:
I lost track of the scenario's twists and turns early on so I can't comment on it.

But if you are saying that, in order to act as PIC, a pilot needs to meet all aircraft and operational requirements to act as PIC, yes. Of course.
Click to expand...

Good, I'm not the only one. Between this a half a dozen other similar threads between the two boards, I can't keep up with who asked what.
 
LDJones said:
:yeahthat: If you're capable of flying it, take an instructor for a short ride and log the endorsement. Done deal.
Click to expand...

agreed. it's only a few hours. In fact, I got my HP endorsement getting signed off with the FBO's 182. It may be worth it to the OP if it lets you get PIC safety pilot hours.
 
You know there was a flowchart that made all this easy, but since it was demonstrated that people had the inability to process something as simple as yes/no answers, I didn't see the point of keeping it linked.
 
EdFred said:
You know there was a flowchart that made all this easy, but since it was demonstrated that people had the inability to process something as simple as yes/no answers, I didn't see the point of keeping it linked.
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Or they asked a question such as, "if my grandpa has a class 3 medical but doesn't have a HP endorsement and the safety pilot is rated in helicopters and airplanes but not current in airplanes and has done 5 hours of helicopter training but is not a CFII and it is in IMC, circle to land approach, but we are flying in a B-52 can I log it as dual received even though it was a demo flight but it was a charity flight and we did pro rata share, what is the price of rice in China?
 
jordane93 said:
Or they asked a question such as, "if my grandpa has a class 3 medical but doesn't have a HP endorsement and the safety pilot is rated in helicopters and airplanes but not current in airplanes and has done 5 hours of helicopter training but is not a CFII and it is in IMC, circle to land approach, but we are flying in a B-52 can I log it as dual received even though it was a demo flight but it was a charity flight and we did pro rata share, what is the price of rice in China?
Click to expand...

In all fairness, my flow chart DID answer that question. :D
 
EdFred said:
You know there was a flowchart that made all this easy, but since it was demonstrated that people had the inability to process something as simple as yes/no answers, I didn't see the point of keeping it linked.
Click to expand...

Just because there were a few people who didn't get it, that doesn't mean it wasn't useful to the rest of us.
 
EdFred said:
You know there was a flowchart that made all this easy, but since it was demonstrated that people had the inability to process something as simple as yes/no answers, I didn't see the point of keeping it linked.
Click to expand...
You should have kept it linked.

People do need something more than a rote yes/no flowchart in order to understand the yes/no and how to apply and correlate the information into other scenarios. But that doesn't diminish the value of your flow chart
 
Palmpilot said:
Just because there were a few people who didn't get it, that doesn't mean it wasn't useful to the rest of us.
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I turned a few people to that flowchart. Really well done Ed! Also if you google "Logging time flowchart ed frederick" it is the first link that pops up.
 
DFH65 said:
So if I am with a friend and they let me try out their plane or in a p!ane I don't have an endorsement or rating for I don't put it in my log book.
Click to expand...

Right, but you could log it as long as you have the appropriate rating (ex. PPL ASEL). The endorsement would only be required to act as PIC or fly solo.
 
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EdFred said:
You know there was a flowchart that made all this easy, but since it was demonstrated that people had the inability to process something as simple as yes/no answers, I didn't see the point of keeping it linked.
Click to expand...

Just looked up the flowchart and it appears to say you can't log pic if you are safety pilot but don't have the endorsement(high performance, complex, etc.)
 
Somedudeintn said:
Just looked up the flowchart and it appears to say you can't log pic if you are safety pilot but don't have the endorsement(high performance, complex, etc.)
Click to expand...

Correct, because to log PIC as a safety pilot you have to ACT as PIC. And "No pilot may act as PIC unless..."
 
jordane93 said:
There is a difference between logging and acting as PIC. The safety pilot needs to ACT as PIC and therefore needs to have the endorsements.
Click to expand...

Correct. It looks like I was wrong in my previous post. That letter addressed logging pic for the time where you are the sole manipulator (the OP's question) ,not acting as the safety pilot.
 
EdFred said:
Read what's actually said in the letter, and not what you want it to say. If you could act as pic without endorsements, what would be the point of the endorsements?
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It's not what I want it to say. I just got mixed up on sole manipulator vs acting safety pilot. You are right on that you need the endorsements to be safety pilot. I was wrong in my previous post.
 
Somedudeintn said:
It's not what I want it to say. I just got mixed up on sole manipulator vs acting safety pilot. You are right on that you need the endorsements to be safety pilot. I was wrong in my previous post.
Click to expand...

You don't need endorsement to act as safety pilot, you need endorsements to act as PIC. You can be safety pilot without acting or logging PIC. My dad acts as safety pilot for me often and he doesn't have a complex or high performance endorsement, and so he doesn't log any PIC time.
 
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