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Tony R

Pre-takeoff checklist
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I have a friend who sold his business and is now looking for a single pilot jet. Here is the short list, let me know if I'm missing something:
1) Eclipse 550/500
2) Phenom 100
3) Premier 1A
4) Honda jet
5) Cirrus vision jet
6) Cessna Mustang (small citation)

It must be single pilot and 3 million or less.

Am I missing anything, no 90s hawkers or lears, please. And no turboprops.

Mission is CT to Florida.
 
Tony R said:
I have a friend who sold his business and is now looking for a single pilot jet. Here is the short list, let me know if I'm missing something:
1) Eclipse 550/500
2) Phenom 100
3) Premier 1A
4) Honda jet
5) Cirrus vision jet
6) Cessna Mustang (small citation)

It must be single pilot and 3 million or less.

Am I missing anything, no 90s hawkers or lears, please. And no turboprops.

Mission is CT to Florida.
Click to expand...

I've been deep into this myself and have a few more questions and comments -

Can you further define the mission? Owner flown or hiring a pilot? If owner flown does he have 500 hours of turbine time? What is needed for UL for the main mission? Where in florida? How many hours of expected use per year?

Probably going to stretch the range limits of the Eclipse, Cirrus and Mustang in many use cases. Getting held down in the east coast corridor isn't uncommon and is going to be a range penalty. A fuel stop is a huge time killer.

Premier 1A doesn't have a great reputation for ops cost for mx. For a lower time operator the insurance market for the Phenom and Honda Jet is pretty tough.

If he's going to put 150 hrs/yr on the airframe and is ok with paying the Williams tax -

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Eggman
 
Tony R said:
I have a friend who sold his business and is now looking for a single pilot jet. Here is the short list, let me know if I'm missing something:
1) Eclipse 550/500
2) Phenom 100
3) Premier 1A
4) Honda jet
5) Cirrus vision jet
6) Cessna Mustang (small citation)

It must be single pilot and 3 million or less.

Am I missing anything, no 90s hawkers or lears, please. And no turboprops.

Mission is CT to Florida.
Click to expand...

kaiser said:
Older Citations! (500, 501, 550, 551, even the CJ). Why no turboprops if you have a Vision jet on the list?
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I was gonna say, older 525 series jets would fit the bill, and the newer version of the Mustang the OP mentioned is a 525 now, not a 510.

If I were looking for a single pilot jet the PC24 would be at the top of my list, but it's gonna be a long time before any of those are down to 3 mil.

The Vision, if it meets the mission parameters, has some appeal. One engine makes it cheaper to operate, plus they have the big red "cheat death for free" button available which is a big selling point for owner flown turbines.

But yeah, no turboprops is probably just 'cuz the guy wants a jet, and apparently can't afford a new TBM. ;)
 
flyingcheesehead said:
But yeah, no turboprops is probably just 'cuz the guy wants a jet, and apparently can't afford a new TBM. ;)
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If all goes according to plan this will be my new ride as of Thursday. Every mission is different and mine kept me in a turboprop. It was either that or a Citation V and, well...maybe someday.
 

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The reason for no turboprops is he wants 2 engines. The only exception is the Vision because of the chute.

The king air was on the list but losing the critical engine on take-off spooks him.
 
Tony R said:
I have a friend who sold his business and is now looking for a single pilot jet. Here is the short list, let me know if I'm missing something:
1) Eclipse 550/500
2) Phenom 100
3) Premier 1A
4) Honda jet
5) Cirrus vision jet
6) Cessna Mustang (small citation)

It must be single pilot and 3 million or less.

Am I missing anything, no 90s hawkers or lears, please. And no turboprops.

Mission is CT to Florida.
Click to expand...

I have flown almost all of these as single pilot personal use operator and am typed on C525, C510 and EMB500 (Phenom 100). I’d steer him towards a Phenom 100 or Mustang personally. They are perfect family traveling machines, super reliable, lots of places to work on them and modern, well integrated cockpits that make flying them super simple. That said, training is a step up for most GA hobbyists and of course requires recurrent training every year. What type of experience does your friend have and does he understand the opex (count on ~$250K a year for about 150 hours with programs), hangar/management and training implications?

These light jets are game changing in the sense that they scratch our hobbyist GA itch and are GENUINELY better than any other means of travel for family/friends short of being a billionaire with a G700 but they do cost a lot of money and time beyond the initial purchase.
 
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Let'sgoflying! said:
www.aopa.org

New life for old CJs

The old saying that life begins at 30 wasn’t aimed at CitationJets, but strangely, it applies.
www.aopa.org
Click to expand...
“(This airplane isn’t equipped with Tamarack winglets which the manufacturer claims significantly accelerates both climb rate and range.)”
It’s safer without those winglets! Interesting article about the upgrades.
 
Tony R said:
The reason for no turboprops is he wants 2 engines. The only exception is the Vision because of the chute.

The king air was on the list but losing the critical engine on take-off spooks him.
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Thats fair. I think about that often.
 
Tony R said:
The reason for no turboprops is he wants 2 engines.
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That'll knock the Cirrus Vision off the list.

Curious, does he have much flying experience? All financial considerations aside, I'm wondering how practical it is for a (presumably) regular GA guy to step into a Honda Jet?
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
That'll knock the Cirrus Vision off the list.

Curious, does he have much flying experience? All financial considerations aside, I'm wondering how practical it is for a (presumably) regular GA guy to step into a Honda Jet?
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Can you get a HondaJet or even a Phenom for $3m? For insurance it’ll be hull value and experience that’ll kill you make it very very expensive. Hence jumping into a cheap Citation to build your first 1000 hrs is the way to go.

Yes I was talking at you. Let’s go get one! (Staying true to my tag line)
 
Stratos?
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www.stratosaircraft.com www.stratosaircraft.com
 
kaiser said:
Can you get a HondaJet or even a Phenom for $3m? For insurance it’ll be hull value and experience that’ll kill you make it very very expensive. Hence jumping into a cheap Citation to build your first 1000 hrs is the way to go.

Yes I was talking at you. Let’s go get one! (Staying true to my tag line)
Click to expand...

I've seen broker quotes on another forum for an experienced owner pilot on a HJ with $3mm hull that was quoted $45k/yr. Compared to a pilot that just got their instrument who was quoted $21k/yr for a $3mm hull value on a VisionJet. IIRC, I'm paying $11k for $1.4mm hull on my 441 with 1700TT and 800 turbine. Those are just the hull values with no liability. My total premium for $5mm smooth is around $26k. The estimate I got to move to a 501 with $1mm hull was in the low $30's for $5mm smooth.
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
That'll knock the Cirrus Vision off the list.

Curious, does he have much flying experience? All financial considerations aside, I'm wondering how practical it is for a (presumably) regular GA guy to step into a Honda Jet?
Click to expand...
The parachute is enough for him to consider single engine.

As far as experience... This is going to set this thread on fire ... Zero.

We have a friend who could get us over the learning curve, (3 years, I guess). Our friend is an ATP with over 10,000 hours in a Cessna Sovereign.

Again my friend is late 50s and retired. His full time job will become a proficient pilot. No rush.
 
Tony R said:
The reason for no turboprops is he wants 2 engines. The only exception is the Vision because of the chute.

The king air was on the list but losing the critical engine on take-off spooks him.
Click to expand...
I kind of read this as he wants a jet due to either ego or lack of understanding of the turboprop options. Either of those seems like a path to likely ruin, financial or otherwise.

James_Dean said:
If all goes according to plan this will be my new ride as of Thursday. Every mission is different and mine kept me in a turboprop. It was either that or a Citation V and, well...maybe someday.
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I’m curious what elements of your mission led from a 425 to a 441, but not to a jet or another turboprop like the MU-2. I’m loving the 310 but our western trips would really benefit from a pressurized cabin, so I’m always daydreaming about a 400-something. So far, I’m in the “try to learn from everyone else without spending any money” phase.
 
Tony R said:
The parachute is enough for him to consider single engine.

As far as experience... This is going to set this thread on fire ... Zero.

We have a friend who could get us over the learning curve, (3 years, I guess). Our friend is an ATP with over 10,000 hours in a Cessna Sovereign.

Again my friend is late 50s and retired. His full time job will become a proficient pilot. No rush.
Click to expand...
Gotcha. I didn't consider the chute angle, but that makes sense from a safety POV.

But yeah, starting from scratch and planning to fly his own very capable jet... Yeah, I think that's going to set the thread on fire!
 
If he needs a pro pilot, or mentor pilot, both of which are probably a good idea, you lose one seat and probably about 200 pounds having to charter the human every flight. So the information really needed is what city pair is he flying, and how many passengers in number and weight and weight in cargo is he planning to travel. Most of the planes mentioned will not do that nonstop with anything onboard
 
When considering range, the Northeast to Florida airspace is filled with airliner's, at airline altitudes, all flying M.77-M.80. If you can't keep up with that, you will be given lower altitudes and have a higher fuel burn.

With zero experience, I'd recommend one of the simplest options to start. That seems like the Cirrus to me, but I'm not expert at that end of the market. Get a few years of experience then trade up.
 
James_Dean said:
I've seen broker quotes on another forum for an experienced owner pilot on a HJ with $3mm hull that was quoted $45k/yr. Compared to a pilot that just got their instrument who was quoted $21k/yr for a $3mm hull value on a VisionJet. IIRC, I'm paying $11k for $1.4mm hull on my 441 with 1700TT and 800 turbine. Those are just the hull values with no liability. My total premium for $5mm smooth is around $26k. The estimate I got to move to a 501 with $1mm hull was in the low $30's for $5mm smooth.
Click to expand...
Wow. The HJ quote is what we pay on the PC12 NGX all in, hull is 6 or 7. The only stipulation is that liability drops to 5m? If I’m single pilot because I’m low time. I’m surprised the 501 was that much. I’d figure 15-20.


Tony R said:
As far as experience... This is going to set this thread on fire ... Zero.
Click to expand...
Zero TT? Or 0 in type? If 0 in type, plan for 100-200 hrs to get comfortable with operations of A/C at that caliber. If 0TT, I’d almost steer your buddy down the Cirrus route (as much as I’m not really a fan). PPL, IR, Comm in a SR20/22, spend 500 hrs [real world] XC in a 22 - Like CT to CA to MN to TX all weather all airspace’s etc etc - then move to a Vision jet. Cirrus has established a pretty neat vertical in that sense. If you train regularly and make it your purpose to master aviation, you can do it at a decent pace.

Also, not a CFI but willing to offer my services as a right seater.

Tarheelpilot said:
pc-24
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For the budget best he can do is 1/5 of a PC24.
 
iamtheari said:
I’m curious what elements of your mission led from a 425 to a 441, but not to a jet or another turboprop like the MU-2. I’m loving the 310 but our western trips would really benefit from a pressurized cabin, so I’m always daydreaming about a 400-something. So far, I’m in the “try to learn from everyone else without spending any money” phase.
Click to expand...
I sold the 425 a few years ago due to some outside issues that were family related. My kids are now 23, 21, 19, 17, and 15 and the 425 was ok when the 8 year old could sit on the "potty" seat and they all weighed a little less. A regular mission was from Iowa to Phoenix and we always had to stop going west and were even started to get limited coming back east. I also have regular missions that take me to Washington, Oregon, Arizona and Georgia. The wife and I are also wanting to spend more time in the Bahamas a few times a year. I will also have several missions that are <250 miles which kills the ops cost on the jets.

One of the other factors is my home base does mx on several Conquests and Citations so are very comfortable in the Cessna ecosystem. A 501 didn't have the legs I needed without a stop, the 550 has the SPW complication that can be problematic for the Bahamas. I really didn't want to end up in the Williams ecosystem due to the 150 hr/yr minimum and the ongoing increases to stay on program. Another factor was that living in the upper midwest I regularly deal with contaminated runways and occasionally shorter strips. That favors the turboprops or puts you into TR's on a jet, and even that is not great for icy/snowy runways. I really got down to the citation that would fit the bill was a V and that pushes you to +160 gph block fuel burns.

The 441 with the -10s has a useful load of over 800 lbs with full fuel which is 475 gallons. With RVSM you can be at FL320 burning <70gph and pushing 300ktas so the range is epic and with 10 in the cabin with bags you can still go a long ways. I can't imagine bumping up against the 2500 lbs zfw. There are certainly some quirks with the airframe to be aware of.
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
Gotcha. I didn't consider the chute angle, but that makes sense from a safety POV.

But yeah, starting from scratch and planning to fly his own very capable jet... Yeah, I think that's going to set the thread on fire!
Click to expand...

Somewhat makes sense but according to OP, one of his friend's biggest concerns about the King Air is losing the critical engine on takeoff, yet he considers a Vision Jet. If he loses the ONLY engine on the Vision Jet on takeoff, depending on how high AGL, the chute won't save him either so might as well go with the King Air if it's the best plane for the mission.
 
Tony R said:
The parachute is enough for him to consider single engine.

As far as experience... This is going to set this thread on fire ... Zero.

We have a friend who could get us over the learning curve, (3 years, I guess). Our friend is an ATP with over 10,000 hours in a Cessna Sovereign.

Again my friend is late 50s and retired. His full time job will become a proficient pilot. No rush.
Click to expand...

Unless I'm not thinking correctly, the practical problem here is how to progress to PIC of a jet in this scenario. You can fly with the pro, but he will be PIC and you guys can't log anything in a single pilot jet. I suppose you could go with a 500 or 550 citation that's not an ISP which would require two pilots as long as your pro doesn't have a SPW, but there are ways to get by that. Then you two would have to go to FlightSafety or equivalent to get a type rating with and SIC limitation, but you're going to have to fly the sim to ATP standards and be instrument proficient. Then if you keep that plane you're going to have to accumulate a minimum of 500 hours of turbine time to qualify for the SPW or switch airframes. All of that is going to get very convoluted insurance is going to be interesting.

I agree with the posts above that buy an SR22 and fly the hell out of it until you get your instrument rating and a few hundred hours. Then you could probably reasonably step up to a VisionJet, but I'd still have a mentor along for a good chunk of time, and you will still need that type rating and the flying ability that requires. Then after 500 hours of turbine time you can move into something with longer legs and more speed.

Somebody please correct me if I messed any of that up.
 
James_Dean said:
I agree with the posts above that buy an SR22 and fly the hell out of it until you get your instrument rating and a few hundred hours. Then you could probably reasonably step up to a VisionJet, but I'd still have a mentor along for a good chunk of time, and you will still need that type rating and the flying ability that requires. Then after 500 hours of turbine time you can move into something with longer legs and more speed.
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I'd think that Cirrus has developed a pathway to go from CR22 to the VisionJet, haven't they? Seems like a good path, to me, for a low-time pilot with the goal of flying a personal jet.
 
kaiser said:
Wow. The HJ quote is what we pay on the PC12 NGX all in, hull is 6 or 7. The only stipulation is that liability drops to 5m? If I’m single pilot because I’m low time. I’m surprised the 501 was that much. I’d figure 15-20.



Zero TT? Or 0 in type? If 0 in type, plan for 100-200 hrs to get comfortable with operations of A/C at that caliber. If 0TT, I’d almost steer your buddy down the Cirrus route (as much as I’m not really a fan). PPL, IR, Comm in a SR20/22, spend 500 hrs [real world] XC in a 22 - Like CT to CA to MN to TX all weather all airspace’s etc etc - then move to a Vision jet. Cirrus has established a pretty neat vertical in that sense. If you train regularly and make it your purpose to master aviation, you can do it at a decent pace.

Also, not a CFI but willing to offer my services as a right seater.


For the budget best he can do is 1/5 of a PC24.
Click to expand...
Sounds like he needs four friends that like status to brag but never travel.

I vote for a Cessna with the Williams engine upgrade.
 
I’d drop a few thousand betting on an abort of this plan before the first single pilot flight occurs. There are so many things that may change the plan they are too numerous to list.

It’s kind of like saying I’m running for president with no experience in politics and no connections. No rush.

Good luck.
 
Salty said:
I’d drop a few thousand betting on an abort of this plan before the first single pilot flight occurs. There are so many things that may change the plan they are too numerous to list.

It’s kind of like saying I’m running for president with no experience in politics and no connections. No rush.

Good luck.
Click to expand...

I was warming up a similar remark, and am kinda surprised you said it nicer than I would have :D
 
Tony R said:
1) Eclipse 550/500
2) Phenom 100
3) Premier 1A
4) Honda jet
5) Cirrus vision jet
6) Cessna Mustang (small citation)
Click to expand...

Tony R said:
As far as experience... This is going to set this thread on fire ... Zero.
Click to expand...

None of the above. Classic cart-before-the-horse, except that a horseless cart is a lot less likely to create a smoking hole in the planet. Let your buddy earn his certificates and accumulate 1500 hrs or so, advancing to more demanding aircraft as his experience grows. Then revisit the matter.
 
Larry in TN said:
I'd think that Cirrus has developed a pathway to go from CR22 to the VisionJet, haven't they? Seems like a good path, to me, for a low-time pilot with the goal of flying a personal jet.
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I think this makes the most sense for the OP's friend. If you have money and time and your goal is to safely and insurably fly around the country in your very own jet, the path of SR20-SR22-SF50 seems very doable. Rent and train in an SR20, buy a FIKI turbo SR22 and fly it a ton, gradually building up your understanding of weather and the limitations of your skills and equipment, and get an insurance quote for an SF50 every 100 hours until they stop giving you "go away" numbers.
 
The few rich guys I've known that suddenly got into aviation out of nowhere did the SR20/SR22 path and then went on from there. One did that and then immediately wanted to own a Cirrus jet until he found out how much insurance wanted for a low time GA pilot with 0 turbine time and decided he'd rather keep the sr22 as a toy and charter a jet for actual travel.
 
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