Let's Talk Sober DUI

The problem is the FAA using arrests instead of convictions, albeit using convictions could be problematic as well. We all know the stories of people getting off on technicalities.

The FAA should not be allowed to create such hardships merely on an arrest. It seems Constitutional protections don't exist when dealing with the FAA, which is garbage.

While not a DUI, I have been given a traffic ticket for an offense I did not commit, but it was my word versus the officers with no other evidence. My parents were also the victim of a false traffic ticket, but again their word versus the officers. In their case it was while travelling out of state, so not even worth travelling to court to fight. Easy money for the state.
 
EdFred said:
Look up the asshat from Cobb County GA. He's been linked previously on the board. People lost their jobs, had a record, etc. Meanwhile they tested negative for everything he claimed.
Click to expand...
Pass. You made the assertion; you provide the evidence.
EdFred said:
So, unless the bad arrests result in the person being made whole, or more than whole, and the asshats who knowingly **** people over get nothing (in his case awarded and promoted). 0%.
Click to expand...
EdFred said:
If these ****bags actually get called on the carpet, and pay out of their own pocket, or face criminal charges, then we can talk about an acceptable error rate.
Click to expand...
So you want cops who make arrests that don't result in convictions to face criminal charges? For what, exactly? I can't imagine what you think should happen to the DAs who prosecute cases that result in acquittal.
 
Tennesee and a collection of other southern states have poorly paid, poorly trained and poorly supervised police officers. Police corruption is problem.
 
Clip4 said:
Tennesee and a collection of other southern states have poorly paid, poorly trained and poorly supervised police officers. Police corruption is problem.
Click to expand...

Based on a sober DUI arrest ratio of less than one percent?
 
EdFred said:
Cobb County was over 5% false from one officer in one year. Is that blatant enough?
Click to expand...
Some people just want to be told what to do and love authority. Some other people, for some reason, believe that certain authority figures are perfect even though they are made up of the same fallible and corruptible flaws of every human.

Im a huge supporter of the police as well. I believe this subject matter is the minority, but the break a few eggs to make a omelette argument I disdain.
 
Racerx said:
You're failing to realize you don't have to be drunk to get a DUI. You can be barred out on Xanax and that ain't showing up on a breathalyzer.

Police lying about something is an absolute extreme outlier.
Click to expand...
police lying is an oulier”. what planet r u living in. they routinely lie under oath in court
 
also, how did we ever get in a position where minor traffic infractions open to unreasonably vague interpertations by the police e.g. rolling stop, give them carte blanche to violate our fourth amendment rights. it’s absurd.
 
I 've worked around police officers for several decades and can count on one hand those who were incompetent. I've yet to meet one who was a liar or had less than honorable intentions. Sure, some traffic stops will appear on the surface to be mickey mouse but remember, Timothy McVeigh was caught because he had no license plate on his vehicle. Traffic stops have led to drug running arrests, drunk or otherwise impaired drivers and other felonies. Our police are there to protect and serve. Your town may have a Ride Along program or a Citizen's 'Police Academy'. If so sign up. You may be surprised.
 
rk911 said:
I 've worked around police officers for several decades and can count on one hand those who were incompetent. I've yet to meet one who was a liar or had less than honorable intentions. Sure, some traffic stops will appear on the surface to be mickey mouse but remember, Timothy McVeigh was caught because he had no license plate on his vehicle. Traffic stops have led to drug running arrests, drunk or otherwise impaired drivers and other felonies. Our police are there to protect and serve. Your town may have a Ride Along program or a Citizen's 'Police Academy'. If so sign up. You may be surprised.
Click to expand...
And how many of those fine upstanding officers called out the incompetent ones to the higher ups? Or did they just sweep situations under the rug or look the other way? If they didn't it makes them complicit, and just as deplorable.
 
Innocent until proven guilty.

A cops opinion on something so complex as impairment is not proof of guilt. In fact, the fact that no documentable proof can be shown of impairment is more convincing that there is no impairment than a cops opinion is that there is impairment.

The founders knew it is far more important to not wrongly punish the innocent than it is to wrongly let a criminal go unpunished. The fact that there is no victim only makes it more egregious when this happens.
 
Salty said:
Innocent until proven guilty.

A cops opinion on something so complex as impairment is not proof of guilt. In fact, the fact that no documentable proof can be shown of impairment is more convincing that there is no impairment than a cops opinion is that there is impairment.

The founders knew it is far more important to not wrongly punish the innocent than it is to wrongly let a criminal go unpunished. The fact that there is no victim only makes it more egregious when this happens.
Click to expand...
Innocent until proven guilty…unless some nameless bureaucrat thinks it’s in the broader public interest to deny you due process.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
 
rk911 said:
I 've worked around police officers for several decades and can count on one hand those who were incompetent. I've yet to meet one who was a liar or had less than honorable intentions. Sure, some traffic stops will appear on the surface to be mickey mouse but remember, Timothy McVeigh was caught because he had no license plate on his vehicle. Traffic stops have led to drug running arrests, drunk or otherwise impaired drivers and other felonies. Our police are there to protect and serve. Your town may have a Ride Along program or a Citizen's 'Police Academy'. If so sign up. You may be surprised.
Click to expand...
I've been around police officers a bit too at different points in my life and I'm currently friends with a few. I share your overall assessment of the typical police officer's character and I don't care for the anti-police attitude that's become common in many circles these days.

That said, there are exceptions out there. There's also the simple fact that even honest and highly trained competent people can misjudge a person or situation. For most things the solution to this is when a person gets their day in court the truth will(theoretically at least) come out and the innocent will go free.

However, we know there are cases where people have been falsely arrested for DUI. The fact is as things stand you could have lab tests and a camera on you 24/7 proving you didn't drink any alcohol or take any drugs and it wouldn't matter. If a police officer decides they want to arrest you they can and no amount of evidence proving your innocence would save your medical. Sure, such a scenario is unlikely but does that matter? Shouldn't we be concerned and outraged that it's possible at all? It's a clear flaw in the system that is directly in conflict with our country's most basic legal principals and values. We should fix that.
 
Salty said:
The fact that there is no victim only makes it more egregious when this happens.
Click to expand...

There are plenty of victims. That's why we expend so many resources to enforce DWI laws.

The cops I am close friends with live with the memory of responding to late night calls at horrific scenes.
 
I think you guys are forgetting that the Airline Pilot has sufficient income to hire those expensive attorneys that get actual drunks off.

It should be a piece of cake to win a sober DUI for them. With the not guilty from the couirt, the FA is likely to give a pass, unless you have previous...

Unfortunately, I have known ATP's with drinking problems. One of them, I just missed being there when he crashed and died.

Those of us with lower incomes can just eat the fine, and keep going. I know too many who do this.

I have a nephew with permanent brain damage, a co worker who is dead, and have lost two cars, totaled by drunks.

I am willing to put up with less than 1% crooked cops (And sincerely hope a good attorney nails them), to avoid crippling enforcement of drunk drivers.

Just remembered, when I was 8, Dad was hit by a drunk, un insured driver, and our only car was totaled. Dad walked a mile, and rode 2 busses to get to work, same returning. That added 2 hours to his work day. That was at the end of the depression, and we were just getting paid off at the grocery store and elsewhere.
 
geezer said:
I think you guys are forgetting that the Airline Pilot has sufficient income to hire those expensive attorneys that get actual drunks off….
Click to expand...
Or flying for hire is a safety critical position.

The reality is we’re spending a lot of words on a small number of medical applicants and, truthfully, the FAA doesn’t have a zero tolerance policy. Add to it nobody has a legal guarantee to any class of an aviation medical.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Guy There are plenty of victims. That's why we expend so many resources to enforce DWI laws.

The cops I am close friends with live with the memory of responding to late night calls at horrific scenes.
Click to expand...
This is a dangerous position to hold. If you are right then we must ban driving. The guy blew 0.00, there was no evidence of impairment other than a cops opinion and he did not harm anyone in any way. There was no victim. Except for the driver, but that is a different crime.
 
What is it with people and their single numbers? Six hundred here, five percent there, and one percent somewhere else. Do crooked cops exist? Sure. Should they be held accountable? Absolutely. Is the entire (nationwide) police system broken because some cops are crooked? No.

None of the rambling here has convinced me that there exists a nationwide epidemic of crooked cops or even in the southern states.
 
Wow, this turned into the meeting of ACAB pilots really quick.

Y'all do know that an arrest just has to be based on probable cause, it isn't a judgment of your guilt. There's an entire rest of the judicial system to judge guilt, right?
 
Lindberg said:
Pass. You made the assertion; you provide the evidence.


So you want cops who make arrests that don't result in convictions to face criminal charges? For what, exactly? I can't imagine what you think should happen to the DAs who prosecute cases that result in acquittal.
Click to expand...
Um no. We want cops who make arrests that don’t result in convictions due to no probable cause found based on the totality of circumstances.

Do you know how many DUI arrests happen all because the cop claimed to have encountered “an overwhelming odor of alcohol”, only to find that the person blew a 0.00? I just watched a YouTube video where an officer, while conducting an inventory search on a vehicle during a DUI stop/arrest (the guy was found to be clean), found an unopened shooter bottle of vodka, opened it (you could hear the seal break on her body cam footage), dumped the contents, put the cap back on the bottle, sat it back on the passenger seat, then collected it as “evidence”. She only admitted to it when confronted with the body cam footage, and then tried to say it was an “honest mistake”, that the department had a policy to dump any alcohol they find in the car before it gets impounded, and that she only realized that she had opened and dumped it, then set it back on the seat upon reviewing the body cam footage.

Even if her defense was true, could you honestly say this officer is a “credible and qualified witness” if she’s known to space out on her own actions?

DUI has lasting consequences for anyone charged and/or convicted of it. We can’t just say “Well they get it right 99% of the time so **** the ones who get ****ed by the system that’s supposed to protect them”. What if we flipped the tables with “Well 99% of drunk drivers make it home okay without killing anyone so **** the ones who get killed by them”?
 
Last edited:
Jon Wilder said:
Um no. We want cops who make arrests that don’t result in convictions due to no probable cause found based on the totality of circumstances.…
Click to expand...
Not all arrests result in trials (due to lack of evidence and other reasons) and not all trials result in convictions. No system is prefect and you’re asking for exactly that: perfection when most statutes include the language I quoted that states anything can cause impairment. Note that impairment and intoxication are two different things. Simple fatigue can result in impairment.

If you want the results you champion, the elements and definitions in the statues need to be changed.
 
2-Bit Speed said:
Yep. Absolutely. Saying that I see insufficient evidence to condemn a system should absolutely be interpreted as, "Screw those unlucky fools."
Click to expand...
If the FAA can refuse to accept more than 0% error, then so can we.
 
Jon Wilder said:
If the FAA can refuse to accept more than 0% error, then so can we.
Click to expand...

I think you should refer to yourself as "We the People" in every post. That is very persuasive. Also keep the single anecdotes coming in lieu of data. If you do post data, be sure to obscure the context as much as possible, since 600 is clearly a lot, whether that is over a month or a century. Start every assertion with "bottom line" or "everyone knows". End all arguments with "Period!" so everyone knows it is established fact and not to be questioned. And be sure to preemptively insult anyone with a contradictory opinion to deter them from posting, because everyone knows a good ad hominem is far superior to logic.
 
Last edited:
Lindberg said:
Wow, this turned into the meeting of ACAB pilots really quick.

Y'all do know that an arrest just has to be based on probable cause, it isn't a judgment of your guilt. There's an entire rest of the judicial system to judge guilt, right?
Click to expand...
And how much that arrest and defense cost when the cop is getting rewarded based on his arrest count? You want to cover all those cases out of your pocket because, "well, it's not really a problem."
 
2-Bit Speed said:
Do crooked cops exist? Sure. Should they be held accountable? Absolutely.
Click to expand...
But they rarely/never are. Or if they are, they just move to another jurisdiction and continue on with their ****bag ways - and get rewarded for it.

There should be ZERO tolerance for purposeful and knowingly wrongful arrests/encounters. It's more than just anecdotal. Go have fun on YouTube, you probably have weeks of footage to go through showing non-honest "mistakes." Do they get in trouble? No. Who pays for it if there's a judgment? Taxpayers. Take it out of the damn pension fund if you want any real change. Sounds like status quo is fine though, as long as it never happens to your family.
 
EdFred said:
But they rarely/never are. Or if they are, they just move to another jurisdiction and continue on with their ****bag ways - and get rewarded for it.
Click to expand...

Fine. 'There is no such thing as a crooked cop. You're all delusional. Screw those unlucky fools.'
 
TCABM said:
Show me where the FAA categorically prohibits any medical being issued for a single DUI arrest with a BAC of 0.0.
Click to expand...
I’m sure @Tools can weigh in on this.

And it’s not that they prohibit the medical being issued. But they’re going tho throw you into HIMS and require you to do all sorts of **** that will end up costing you lots of money. Some would argue that they end up bankrupting many to the point t of giving up on it, thereby creating a defacto prohibition on issue.
 
EdFred said:
But they rarely/never are. Or if they are, they just move to another jurisdiction and continue on with their ****bag ways - and get rewarded for it.

There should be ZERO tolerance for purposeful and knowingly wrongful arrests/encounters. It's more than just anecdotal. Go have fun on YouTube, you probably have weeks of footage to go through showing non-honest "mistakes." Do they get in trouble? No. Who pays for it if there's a judgment? Taxpayers. Take it out of the damn pension fund if you want any real change. Sounds like status quo is fine though, as long as it never happens to your family.
Click to expand...
Nailed it
 
Jon Wilder said:
I’m sure @Tools can weigh in on this.

And it’s not that they prohibit the medical being issued. But they’re going tho throw you into HIMS and require you to do all sorts of **** that will end up costing you lots of money. Some would argue that they end up bankrupting many to the point t of giving up on it, thereby creating a defacto prohibition on issue.
Click to expand...

Again, show me, where HIMS is the categorical policy of the FAA. Some employers may require it, but the FAA doesn’t. Some AMEs may choose to refer the applicant to a HIMS AME, but that doesn’t require long-term HIMS surveillance, either.

https://www.faa.gov/ame_guide/media/DUIDWI_Alcohol_Incidents_Disposition_Table.pdf https://www.faa.gov/ame_guide/media/DUIDWI_Alcohol_Incidents_Disposition_Table.pdf
 
TCABM said:
Again, show me, where HIMS is the categorical policy of the FAA. Some employers may require it, but the FAA doesn’t. Some AMEs may choose to refer the applicant to a HIMS AME, but that doesn’t require long-term HIMS surveillance, either.

https://www.faa.gov/ame_guide/media/DUIDWI_Alcohol_Incidents_Disposition_Table.pdf https://www.faa.gov/ame_guide/media/DUIDWI_Alcohol_Incidents_Disposition_Table.pdf
Click to expand...
When you’re a student or private pilot, the FAA requires those with DUI arrests to engage with a HIMS AME for sponsorship and monitoring, to include weekly group aftercare counseling, peer support group activities twice weekly minimum, substance tests random in nature, no less than 14 times within a 12 month period, quarterly visits to your HIMS AME, and special issuance time limited to 6 months. That’s the way it goes for private pilots.
 
Part 121 guy. Pulled over, denied drinking, bled. Reported required arrest. AME (that’s faa policy) required an evaluation, that got him to rehab.

While in rehab results came back, 0.0. They didn’t care. That would be faa hims shrink, psych and AME. He’s currently stuck in hims.

I’ll have to call him for more details.

Companies say faa requires…
FAA says they have no control over company hims…

Uh, who IS in control here?
 
Jon Wilder said:
When you’re a student or private pilot, the FAA requires those with DUI arrests to engage with a HIMS AME for sponsorship and monitoring, to include weekly group aftercare counseling, peer support group activities twice weekly minimum, substance tests random in nature, no less than 14 times within a 12 month period, quarterly visits to your HIMS AME, and special issuance time limited to 6 months. That’s the way it goes for private pilots.
Click to expand...

That’s not what the decision matrix says. Can you prove ALL student and private pilot certificate holders are categorically required to do the above things regardless of BAC?

What I expect happens is regardless of certificate, depending on how long ago, how many times, and whether or not the applicant can provide proof of BAC, the medical is either issued in office or deferred. I expect most one time DUI applicants had the DUI less than fiver years ago and/or don’t dig up the BAC from the court records because it either doesn’t exist or they don’t do the work to get the records.

That’s a personal decision, not an FAA decision. I’d urge you to review the FAA’s FAQ on the subject as well as the certification aid.

FAQ: https://www.faa.gov/ame_guide/media/SubstancesAbuseDependenceFAQ.pdf https://www.faa.gov/ame_guide/media/SubstancesAbuseDependenceFAQ.pdf

Certification aid: https://www.faa.gov/ame_guide/media/DAEvent_FAACertificationAidRequiredInformation.pdf https://www.faa.gov/ame_guide/media/DAEvent_FAACertificationAidRequiredInformation.pdf
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top